PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, former district attorney, Bellefonte, 15 Apr 2005 - #17

Status
Not open for further replies.
We have another potential downing in the Susquehanna, at Harrisburg. We can use this as a guide to see if the remains are recovered. A bit ghoulish, but it could give us data. Unidentified woman believed to have drowned in the Susquehanna River in Harrisburg

Any word on the drowning victim surfacing?
Is the river deeper in Harrisburg than Lewisburg and is there a baffle- type dam in the Harrisburg area?


Last thing, has no family member reported a missing woman that corresponds timewise with the possible drowning victim?
Sorry for the questions without much input, but you know how the two of us discuss things.
 
Any word on the drowning victim surfacing?
Is the river deeper in Harrisburg than Lewisburg and is there a baffle- type dam in the Harrisburg area?


Last thing, has no family member reported a missing woman that corresponds timewise with the possible drowning victim?
Sorry for the questions without much input, but you know how the two of us discuss things.

Possibly. I have not heard that they identified the person seen drowning, but the body of a woman was found. It was about a fortnight between the incident and the recovery.

BODY FOUND in Susquehanna River in Lancaster County

Yes, it is generally deeper at Harrisburg. There are no high dams, other than the canvas dam, between Lewisburg and the hydroelectric dam downstream from Harrisburg.
 
Possibly. I have not heard that they identified the person seen drowning, but the body of a woman was found. It was about a fortnight between the incident and the recovery.

BODY FOUND in Susquehanna River in Lancaster County

Yes, it is generally deeper at Harrisburg. There are no high dams, other than the canvas dam, between Lewisburg and the hydroelectric dam downstream from Harrisburg.

Just found this:
UPDATE: The coroner's office has identified the person as 33-year-old Delmar King, of Harrisburg. The cause of death is freshwater drowning.
Authorities said a kayaker discovered the body around 12:22 p.m. along the shore near Riverfront Park in East Donegal Township.
 
This episode had a few problems.

The women's center did not put up the reward. They were the beneficiary of the reward when it was not claimed.

Paterno was not involved with The Second Mile, so far as I know. It was a popular charity and did attract a large number of prominent people, however.

Schreffler was a detective, not the police chief.

According to Lauro, and the testimony from Schreffler, Lauro never met with RFG and made his decision regarding Sandusky after RFG decided not to prosecute. Lauro's decision might have have influenced by RFG, but not vice versa.

Freeh was not hired by PSU until 2011, and was one of several people considered. There would be no way that RFG could know, in 2004, that Freeh would be involved.

Freeh found about Schultz's Sandusky file from the AG's Office. The AG's Office found out from Schultz's assistant, Belcher, who received immunity for turning them over. Former police chief, Schultz assistants testify at preliminary hearing

It was interesting to know that RFG still saw Sandusky as a problem. However, we have seen a number of prosecutors in PA not prosecute pedophiles that had associations with powerful institutions.
 
The truth as I believe it, living outside PA and not giving a rat's tail about PSU, JoePa, or PSU " legacy" or " politics" ( it's a college, not a state government) is that 1) Those living in PA have an often- distorted opinion about what Sandusky did and who helped him through complicity and silence.
2) Many PA residents tend to want to lump all kinds of other unsolved crimes in with Sandusky.

I've studied the way he worked from my position as an outsider, a Psychologist with experience understanding Pedophilia ( as well as it can be understood, which is a dark place in which to dwell) and child sexual exploitation in general.

While it is true that Sandusky had no fear and was enabled actively by at least his wife, the passive enabling came from the silence of the coaching staff during the years Sandusky was using the facilities there to shower with boys, and otherwise to have boys on campus in the Athletic Department early on in his crimes against children.

There's no direct link to his solitary behavior and PSU. PSU didn't procure children for him; he had the funds to lure them into The Second Mile and into his motorhome for trips to Bowl games and so forth.
It has never been proven, but likely has been disproven that Sandusky was any part of a pedophile " ring". ( I hate that terminology).

It is absolutely disingenuous to accuse a man missing since 2005 of being involved with any of Sandusky's crimes, except that Gricar did investigate one case and chose not to proceed. Reason given was that it was likely a weak case and if Sandusky walked away from justice, the Double Jeopardy provision against future prosecution would allow him to stalk children ad finem.

NO ONE hurt Ray Gricar for his choice to not prosecute the case which, horrifically, had landed in his hands. He was the last person Sandusky would have considered either a friend or an enemy. Gricar's action was NEUTRAL, thus, it's likely that Sandusky's opinion of Gricar was also NEUTRAL.

I hate it when the Sandusky pedophilia crimes come back up. It's a lazy excuse for why a D. A. died and is not rational.

Also, there is absolutely NOTHING which points to bribes taken by RFG concerning Sandusky or any other thing, and to state otherwise is victimizing a victim. It is also libel to write such things without a shred of truth.

I have as much disdain for those who hurt children as the next poster, but we can't pin someone else's crimes on Gricar in absentia, nor can we link him to the criminal behavior of Sandusky which became national headlines. This is a slippery slope and NO ONE'S non-professional analysis of the Gricar case should even MENTION Sandusky except as a footnote regarding what small amount is known from one of RFG's files. Not even his spoken words, just notes in a folder.
 
Sandusky's wife was never charged with "actively enabling" his crimes but several men from Penn State were (Spanier, Curley, Schultz). That said, I doubt Gricar's disappearance is connected to Sandusky's abuse. I think people are grasping at straws just because the Penn State scandal made headlines
 
Sandusky's wife was never charged with "actively enabling" his crimes but several men from Penn State were (Spanier, Curley, Schultz). That said, I doubt Gricar's disappearance is connected to Sandusky's abuse. I think people are grasping at straws just because the Penn State scandal made headlines

I have agree and with SJ as well.

First, there is zero evidence of bribery. We have looking at RFG's finances for a while. No one has ever said, "Where did Gricar get all this money." :)

Second, there are no indication RFG was investigating Sandusky. In 1998, he could have prosecuted. He also could have said, **This will require an major investigation; I'm calling the OAG.** Statute does permit a DA to do that when he doesn't have the resources. RFG didn't even have an investigator on staff.

There was no Sandusky file in the office; there was nothing in his papers, no notes, nothing scheduled. There were no e-mails regarding it. RFG was planning to erase the data on the laptop, so why would he keep it on there.

Third, there is no way that RFG could have known that Freeh would be involved with Penn State. The decision to hire him was in response to a November 17, 2011 from NCAA president, Mark Emmert. Freeh was hired on December 2, 2011 and was not the only person being considered. Giuliani and Chertoff were also under consideration, and Giuliani almost got it.

We don't even have evidence that Gricar and Freeh were in the same town, at the same time.
 
Sandusky's wife was never charged with "actively enabling" his crimes but several men from Penn State were (Spanier, Curley, Schultz). That said, I doubt Gricar's disappearance is connected to Sandusky's abuse. I think people are grasping at straws just because the Penn State scandal made headlines

The evidence showed that Dottie Sandusky was an eyewitness to things most people will never see in their lifetimes, thankfully. One theory of her complicity is that JS " groomed" his wife to accept the inappropriate actions for years. I don't know that it's possible for an adult who KNOWS right from wrong to be " groomed", but it's likely there were substantial financial and emotional incentives for her to be quiet and turn a blind eye. To be JS's most fervent supporter, who never wavered. Obviously, she's not living in the world of mental healthy people. I'd rather think her mentally ill rather than knowingly evil.

I referenced the PSU coaching staff's culpability as well. No reason to keep beating that drum of the 3 Stooges coaching staff. The coaching staff were horrible human beings to turn their backs on the suffering of children.

Yes, the day the PSU Sandusky CSA cases broke in national news, I realized it would set the Gricar case investigation back in serious ways because many of the residents of PA wanted to link the case of a missing D.A. to the Sandusky case a few years after Gricar went missing.

I still wonder what amount of damage was done to Mr. Gricar's case of going missing with no evidence of foul play by him or acted upon him by another person.
It's one of the more minor reasons I hate JS for what he did to those boys.

I agree with J. about the lack of permanent documentation in D.A. Gricar's office files, and the fact that Gricar and Freeh were not in the same orbit regarding JS.
Also that Gricar didn't have an unusual influx of financial assets, and certainly not anything regarding banking which raised a red flag regarding bribery re: JS pedophilia cases.
 
Actually there's no evidence that Dottie Sandusky directly witnessed anything. That's why she was never charged or sued. We can certainly argue about what she may or may not have known, but no one ever provided any evidence that she was sitting around watching him molest kids.
 
I was watching the FBI files and an episode from Pa. came on and It caught my attention right away. Then, I saw a sign that said Bellefonte on it and I had a feeling someone would be on the case.
Then, Ray Gricar is talking in an interview. He was interviewed much of the show.
It was so eerie.

The episode of FBI files is A Stranger In Town. Season 2, episode 5. Prime
 
I was watching the FBI files and an episode from Pa. came on and It caught my attention right away. Then, I saw a sign that said Bellefonte on it and I had a feeling someone would be on the case.
Then, Ray Gricar is talking in an interview. He was interviewed much of the show.
It was so eerie.

The episode of FBI files is A Stranger In Town. Season 2, episode 5. Prime

I don't recall ever seeing this. Thank you for bringing the episode to the case discussion!
Also, as I have Prime Streaming, I'll be looking for it. I sort of have to prepare emotionally as this case really grabbed my attention and my heartstrings in 2005 and has never let go.

I've never seen him interviewed. Did see a very short clip where he and others in the D.A.'s office answered some questions about a case. He spoke maybe 2-3 sentences at most. Others spoke more than he did, which likely wasn't unusual.
 
I was watching the FBI files and an episode from Pa. came on and It caught my attention right away. Then, I saw a sign that said Bellefonte on it and I had a feeling someone would be on the case.
Then, Ray Gricar is talking in an interview. He was interviewed much of the show.
It was so eerie.

The episode of FBI files is A Stranger In Town. Season 2, episode 5. Prime

Spring Dawn (Dawn Birnbaun) case?
 
I have agree and with SJ as well.

First, there is zero evidence of bribery. We have looking at RFG's finances for a while. No one has ever said, "Where did Gricar get all this money." :)

Second, there are no indication RFG was investigating Sandusky. In 1998, he could have prosecuted. He also could have said, **This will require an major investigation; I'm calling the OAG.** Statute does permit a DA to do that when he doesn't have the resources. RFG didn't even have an investigator on staff.

There was no Sandusky file in the office; there was nothing in his papers, no notes, nothing scheduled. There were no e-mails regarding it. RFG was planning to erase the data on the laptop, so why would he keep it on there.

Third, there is no way that RFG could have known that Freeh would be involved with Penn State. The decision to hire him was in response to a November 17, 2011 from NCAA president, Mark Emmert. Freeh was hired on December 2, 2011 and was not the only person being considered. Giuliani and Chertoff were also under consideration, and Giuliani almost got it.

We don't even have evidence that Gricar and Freeh were in the same town, at the same time.

I was astounded by her " theory" that Gricar met up with Freeh in Vermont as they both vacationed.
I think it's more than a stretch to say this happened, given the date of 2011 that Freeh started work on his investigation, and Gricar going missing in 2005.

Also, didn't Ray usually take a companion with him? Were they supposed to " wait in the car" while the two men chatted about a prolific PSU pedophile?
Makes no sense to me, either, J.

Just now listened to the latest part of the podcast.
I wish I'd made a bet that she'd shoot arrows at Tom Corbett, too. I remember when the early sentiment ran so high against Corbett in this case and its discussion. It was hard to shove past Tom Corbett's huge shadow to discuss practical theories related to the case. I wonder now, all these years later, why Corbett was the very early scapegoat and boogeyman. NOT that I want to get anti-Corbett sentiment stirred up again- never would I wish that upon this cleaned up case discussion again.
Barely an intro to the series and BAM, we're already into " Corbett failed to investigate Gricar's disappearance".
Is Corbett the most hated man to come out of PA's executive branch of government in our lifetimes, or was their a direct and focused enmity between Corbett and Gricar specifically? ( I know about the televised press conference where Gricar looks so upset as Corbett is talking but don't recall the specifics of the reason for that occasion's bad atmosphere).

There's a huge difference in failing to act when ONE PERSON'S actions could direct a focus on Gricar's disappearance early on, and letting the law enforcement agencies with local and area jurisdiction be the ones doing the investigating.

Once again, I think it's time we each remember: There was NO sign of foul play. NO sign of anything beyond some computer searches and an old work computer put into the river separately and without even the basic knowledge of who separated the parts and put them into the river. We think we know, because of logical reasoning, but it could have been someone other than Ray. Water and sand corroded the HD after time in the sand and water. The laptop case was extraneous, the HD was what mattered and was not readable by a specialty firm. From what I've seen in the photographs, it's likely never going to be readable. However, I remember when criminal cases sometimes hinged on fingerprints or blood types and subtypes before DNA sequencing was perfected as well.

So, what was Corbett supposed to do as AG of PA? Later, as Gov.?
I think he and Gricar were not openly antagonistic, but openly uncommunicative mutually.
However, the same could probably be said for many people in PA gov't. at that time with Corbett, from what I've read separately from Gricar's case.

It's really difficult for me to assign blame to anyone at all with the facts as we know them. Ray disappeared. No clues. No ransom demands, no plane ticket, no passport found, not even a speck of displaced DNA in ALL these years.

~*~*~*~*~How do you follow a ghost down a wishing well? I ask myself this more and more as the years without him pass. ~*~*~*~*~
I think of the sudden cessation of his usual life in a small town for something unknown, and I'm afraid for him all over again.. The bereft feeling that comes with knowing he's somehow lost or gone .

There's something about the podcasts, Rebecca Knight's verbal intonations, that cause me to feel very sad, almost like I'm somehow missing as well. I have to give her kudos for the sadness she conveys. I won't be listening in the darkened stillness of a sleeping household at midnight in the future. Haunting. All of it, the case and the memories of what we've known for so long, just haunting at times. I'm very sad.
 
Last edited:
No one has ever said, "Where did Gricar get all this money." :)

Respectfully Snipped

Actually the documents that you and I have obtained show very little money.

I do not buy into any connection between PSU and RG. Dug into it a bit a good while back and I don't see any merit in that theory.

I do think that all available resources were not utilized in searching for RG and no really deep investigation into why a sitting DA went missing was mounted by either political party or any public official elected since. That is a huge red flag to me. Somewhere, someone in local or state government is quietly saying "this is a can of worms you don't want to open" whenever there is any official poking around done. Of that, I am 99% sure. We have seen dozens of cases here at WS in the past few years with 100 times more resources applied to solving them. So you have to ask yourself what could have occurred that rises to a level that would quash any official deep dive? For some odd reason this case is a known "poison apple" that no one of any authority want's to bite into to make a name for themselves in solving.

Without prejudice, I feel comfortable in saying that it is possible that RG did destroy physical and data evidence when the hard drive was removed from the computer and both were tossed into the river. What that data was will most likely remain unknown. There is also no direct proof that RG tossed the computer and drive into the river. We know he had it with him and that he was fiddling with it in the park. I know from some dimensional analysis work (previously posted here) that it would have been somewhat difficult, but not impossible for RG to toss them from his Mini from the bridge. Some day I will have the time to forensically prove this one way or the other (hopefully retire or semi retire this September). I have no idea if LE has made any attempt to figure this out. What would be really interesting is if they tried to stop me from doing any forensic tests.

While it was possible to walk into the woods or jump into the river and commit suicide, it is not my leading scenario. I have personally walked the entire park, bridge, areas on the other side of the bridge, the SOS and the immediate area. I am reasonably confident nothing violent by other parties occurred in Lewisburg, other than possibly being forced into another vehicle. The mystery woman seen with RG is curious, but no really solid scenario can be developed given the very little information we have available. It's all speculation at best.

We have a missing DA, no serious and public attempt by LE or investigate authority at any level to find him, very little money in his account and very few personal possessions. Possible scenarios, rumors and speculation abound, but none that can be substantiated by physical or digital evidence that we (WS) are aware of. I also find it highly curious that the Vidocq Society has never taken a look at this case, or even been asked to that we are aware of.

We have a few disconnected bits of verifiable information, some rumors, some documentation and not a whole lot of nothing else. We are left with a Missing Public Official with NO serious attempt to solve the case at a local, State or Federal level. A missing child case gets more resources and effort than this case has.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
232
Guests online
3,195
Total visitors
3,427

Forum statistics

Threads
592,252
Messages
17,966,099
Members
228,733
Latest member
jbks
Back
Top