Found Deceased UK - Sarah Everard, 33, London - Clapham Common area, 3 March 2021 *Arrests* #14

[JuicyLucy]

Another oddity on the date ............

"Reading the indictment to Couzens, the clerk of the court said: "You are charged that on Mar 2, 2021, you unlawfully and by force or fraud took or carried away Sarah Everard against her will. Are you guilty or not guilty?"

Sarah Everard death: Pc Wayne Couzens pleads guilty to kidnap and rape

I'm starting to think someone in the press office just needs a proofreading refresher. Together with a revalidation of their Crystal Mark for clarity in English.

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

I think that that is just old fashioned legal language.

It wasn't the language, it is the date!

 

[Satchie]

I think that that is just old fashioned legal language.

I think it is ordinary English: when they say "between March 2 and 10", they mean "after March 2", and "before Mar 10". The charge specifically excludes those two dates, and references the dates between them. Just like you have to kick a ball between the goal posts, and don't score if you hit a goal post.

 

[Satchie]

I seem to remember they were classing it as kidnap right up until they found her body - I know police often do that in a missing person's enquiry if no evidence of violence, but something about the urgency of the searches made me think they genuinely had reason to believe she was still alive in the days following her disappearance, hence the rape charge from 2 (before her disappearance) to 10 March when her body was found

Equally, it could be that they couldn't determine time of death from the postmortem so it's from when she disappeared to when he was arrested.

JIMO

IMO Kidnap is a separate and very serious charge, a jail sentence would be longer if it includes kidnapping.

The murder charge also applies between Mar 2 and 10, not surprising they don't know when she died.

PC Wayne Couzens pleads guilty to kidnap and rape of Sarah Everard

 

[annpats]

I wonder if his wife (if she's innocent) and the 2 children will have to be given new identities to keep them safe, or if she'll take the kids back to her native Ukraine and continue their lives there...?
Those poor children. How can you even begin to explain.....

 

[SBops]

I think it is ordinary English: when they say "between March 2 and 10", they mean "after March 2", and "before Mar 10". The charge specifically excludes those two dates, and references the dates between them. Just like you have to kick a ball between the goal posts, and don't score if you hit a goal post.

I was talking about the description of the abduction. 'Unlawfully or by force or fraud, did carry away'.

 

[annpats]

I was talking about the description of the abduction. 'Unlawfully or by force or fraud, did carry away'.

Yup, that's classic English legal language. Nothing to worry about there....

 

[Satchie]

I was talking about the description of the abduction. 'Unlawfully or by force or fraud, did carry away'.

Sorry, I thought you were addressing confusion about the dates.

 

[SBops]

We are all talking at cross purposes here.

 

[SBops]

Yup, that's classic English legal language. Nothing to worry about there....

It has to sound as pompous as it can to frighten people.

 

[Beans]

There are only 3 charges; the first is kidnap, the second is rape and the third is murder. When they reported 'a second charge of rape' they didn't mean the second of two rape charges, they meant a second of 3 total charges.

The dates are set like this because no one can know whether rape and murder would have happened late on the night of the 3rd, or perhaps just after midnight which would make it the 4th. What they can be certain of is that on the 2nd she was alive and hadn't been kidnapped or raped, and on 10th her body was found so by that time she had.

We do have to be careful what we say, so I'll just give a little bit of my take on the situation without saying too much, but I seem to be thinking quite differently to everyone else posting here. The little bits of information we have about his behaviour while in custody make me think that he, at least in the few days after arrest, didn't have mental capacity to formulate a plan of how to get off lightly or spare any details. I think he may have admitted all charges, and that holding off on entering a plea to murder is totally driven by his defence counsel. He seemed like he couldn't hold it together at all.

All my opinion only.

I agree with this take. I think he’s fallen apart when being questioned and perhaps initially admitted to having sex with her - perhaps even initially as a weak attempt to pass it off as a consensual encounter. Either way I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume he might have been relatively forthcoming with details under pressure.

I dread to imagine the detail of what happened to her. I really do.

 

[tmar]

I agree with this take. I think he’s fallen apart when being questioned and perhaps initially admitted to having sex with her - perhaps even initially as a weak attempt to pass it off as a consensual encounter. Either way I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume he might have been relatively forthcoming with details under pressure.

I dread to imagine the detail of what happened to her. I really do.

I am wondering, if results of his medical examination, will have him placed into an institution, avoiding any further LE questioning, therefore avoiding a trial etc.

 

[MsBetsy]

I am wondering, if results of his medical examination, will have him placed into an institution, avoiding any further LE questioning, therefore avoiding a trial etc.

What medical evaluation? Did the court order some type of psychological evaluation?

 

[tmar]

Sarah Everard: Wayne Couzens admits rape and kidnap
rbbm.
''PC Couzens was wearing khaki trousers and a grey sweatshirt as he appeared by video link from Belmarsh jail.

He pleaded guilty to kidnapping Ms Everard "unlawfully and by force or fraud" on 3 March.

He also pleaded guilty to a second charge of rape between 2 and 10 March''

''The court heard that he had accepted responsibility for the killing but medical reports were awaited.

The next plea hearing is due to take place on 9 July.''

McBetsy, I thought that 'medical reports were awaited' (above), may apply to Sarah and this monster.

 

[JuicyLucy]

I think it is ordinary English: when they say "between March 2 and 10", they mean "after March 2", and "before Mar 10". The charge specifically excludes those two dates, and references the dates between them. Just like you have to kick a ball between the goal posts, and don't score if you hit a goal post.

Given her body was found on the 10th, you would think that if that were the rationale the wording would be "between March 2 and 11".

Otherwise, his defence team might have leeway to argue that raping her was the very last thing he did and was not "between" the dates alleged at all. (For example.)

JMO

 

[mrjitty]

Given her body was found on the 10th, you would think that if that were the rationale the wording would be "between March 2 and 11".

Otherwise, his defence team might have leeway to argue that raping her was the very last thing he did and was not "between" the dates alleged at all. (For example.)

JMO

Personally I find this drafting of the dates to be quite strange - not that anything really turns on it.

But it does seem to be saying she was murdered sometime from 3rd to 9th inclusive.

Perhaps they know she was not murdered on the 10th, because for instance, they know where the accused was that day

 

[sagesun11]

Yes, it seems like he's only admitted to what can be proven, and is waiting to see what evidence they have before admitting to the murder charge.

It appears that he accepted responsibility but hasn't pleaded to the murder charge because: "The murder charge wasn't put to Wayne Couzens today because the defence team are awaiting medical reports they have commissioned. Originally the plea date was set for July with the provisional trial due in October." SOURCE

"Couzens has not yet been arraigned on the charge of murder.

Couzens will undergo medical and psychiatric reports ahead of a plea and trial preparation date currently set for July 9.
Couzens’ acceptance is not equivalent to a guilty plea.
If he does plead guilty to murder, then the court will proceed to sentencing either later the same day or at a future date" SOURCE

So I'd say it looks like he's more than likely going for diminished responsibility but is awaiting psychological reports to come in to back it up.

 

[mrjitty]

I agree with this take. I think he’s fallen apart when being questioned and perhaps initially admitted to having sex with her - perhaps even initially as a weak attempt to pass it off as a consensual encounter. Either way I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume he might have been relatively forthcoming with details under pressure.

I dread to imagine the detail of what happened to her. I really do.

It's quite likely under advice from counsel, he will have had to admit to certain facts to avoid harming his potential defence later.

For instance, if he has been confronted with conclusive evidence of the victim in his car - he would likely need to give some explanation for that, probably in a written statement.

It's a bit hard to say right now, as we don't know what his defence (if any) will be.

 

[mrjitty]

It appears that he accepted responsibility but hasn't pleaded to the murder charge because: "The murder charge wasn't put to Wayne Couzens today because the defence team are awaiting medical reports they have commissioned. Originally the plea date was set for July with the provisional trial due in October." SOURCE

"Couzens has not yet been arraigned on the charge of murder.

Given everything we know about the case, one imagines he would need to "accept responsibility", as the foundation for a potential manslaughter defence.

Couzens will undergo medical and psychiatric reports ahead of a plea and trial preparation date currently set for July 9.
Couzens’ acceptance is not equivalent to a guilty plea.
If he does plead guilty to murder, then the court will proceed to sentencing either later the same day or at a future date" SOURCE

So I'd say it looks like he's more than likely going for diminished responsibility but is awaiting psychological reports to come in to back it up.

It's possible the defence itself does not currently know the psychiatric position, and thus isn't able to accurately plead right now.

So rather than any nefarious attempt to "get off", defence counsel thinks there is reason to check the prosecution view on fitness to stand trial is correct.

 

[Nikynoo]

This was also said via a journalist back when he had his first court appearance. It was unfortunately a horrific crime by the sounds of it and maybe that’s why he is confessing to save his children the pain and humiliation of a long trial.


I am just relieved for the family’s sake they won’t be dragged though months of a trial.

We will have to wait for the reports to come back.

Sarah Everard: Why we can’t report much about the case despite rape and kidnap pleas
A number of reporting restrictions are in place until the case reaches trial............

Why we can’t report much about the Wayne Couzens court case

Thanks!!