What are your thoughts on the Jonbenet case?

[0liviasolves]

my personal opinion is that jonbenet heard burke and patsy having pineapple and milk downstairs and wanted to have some. she grabbed one piece and burke had enough and all his jealousy came out and he grabbed something and struck her. she wasn't moving and he didn't know if he was dead so he poked her with his train track ( the marks thought to be a stun gun). patsy screamed and they covered it up along with john.

 

[0liviasolves]

any ( respectful) opinion is welcome!

 

[Donnie McG]

I think intruder, I really don't think it was any family member but we may never know for sure.

 

[Tobiano8th]

i keep coming back to 1) pretty sure PR wrote that "fake" ransom note; 2) no credible evidence of intruder; 3) R's acted very guilty (i get that courts don't attach any importance to lawyering up very early and aggressively, but common sense suggests otherwise)

so the big mystery in my mind is why they didn't get medical attention for their daughter...... suggests maybe it wasn't accident, but then that brings IDI back into it.

to suggest IDI brings up a million questions. not literally but you get the idea.

 

[Tower]

my personal opinion is that jonbenet heard burke and patsy having pineapple and milk downstairs and wanted to have some. she grabbed one piece and burke had enough and all his jealousy came out and he grabbed something and struck her. she wasn't moving and he didn't know if he was dead so he poked her with his train track ( the marks thought to be a stun gun). patsy screamed and they covered it up along with john.

Totally respect your opinion and many people agree with you. What has always bothered me (and I’ve watched all the documentaries, etc.) is why anyone would cover up for BR if her death was an accident? The reason has always been given that they wouldn’t want to lose him, too, but he was just a child. He would not have gone to prison. So the parents stage the scene and strangle their daughter? It is just implausible to me, but who knows how insane people would go if they thought their child was dead. I certainly would never jump to “let me stage an incredibly complex murder scene and then lie for rest of my life.” I don’t think BR would be capable of keeping the secret at the time or for this many years. Imo

 

[Tobiano8th]

BR being protected by the parents, prosecutors, system makes alot of sense....... not getting medical attention for your daughter was crazy, if that is in fact the case here.

i don't BR would be much more "tarred for life" than he is right now. and the details probably would have been vague anyway.

 

[Tobiano8th]

many parents i know would do anything for their kids (i think) ..... even something like voluntarily accompany them to auschwitz and certain death even if they could have gotten out of it themselves. a doctor did this in poland for a bunch of kids (i.e. "my place is with the children" when informed he could escape to freedom if he wanted

 

[aThousandYearsWide]

The whole case is strange. I always leaned toward it being someone relating to her pageants. Maybe even a friend of the family. Didn't they recently have a party? That would be the perfect opportunity for the perp to get a good look at the house, locate JonBenet's room, check out the basement, etc. I wonder if any of the guests asked for a tour or helped themselves to wandering around the house.

With the Ranson note it is very strange. It seems like a botched kidnapping and I think the killer originally was trying to get rid of the body, but got spooked and fled or was unable to get her body out of the basement window, etc. I wonder how long it is estimated that it took to write out the ransom note. I don't think the family is involved but agree some stuff is very weird or off.

Also wasn't the ransom her father's exact promotion or Christmas bonus amount? Further leading me to believe it is someone close to them. Maybe someone from Dad's work?

 

[proust20]

One ought to consider that the chronic SA of JB was the motive behind the killing. That the Rs have denied the autopsy findings is telling. Also, bear in mind the indictments handed down by the GJ, but not pursued by AH. While the indictments against the parents are murky, they can be read as BDI. The GJ heard from LS. The indictments indicate that his IDI theory was rejected by them.

IDI has many difficulties, among them: By what means did the intruder(s) arrive at and depart from the R home? Why did the intruder(s) take the time to feed JB pineapple? If the RN were written before the killing, why was it left at the scene? Writing it afterwards should have been pointless. How did the intruder(s) know where the size 12 Bloomies were located? Similarly, how did they know that her white blanket was in the dryer? There was gap of about an hour between the head blow and the strangulation. Why did the killer hang around for so long? Why did JB not struggle with her assailant? The number of people who knew about JR's bonus was limited. Surely, all of them were sorted out and investigated. Of course, the number of these kind of problems could stretch on and on. Interestingly, after 25 years Team R has no answers to any of these issues, despite the self-proclaimed unswerving dedication and focus of JR to seek a solution to the mystery.

 

[Tower]

many parents i know would do anything for their kids (i think) ..... even something like voluntarily accompany them to auschwitz and certain death even if they could have gotten out of it themselves. a doctor did this in poland for a bunch of kids (i.e. "my place is with the children" when informed he could escape to freedom if he wanted

My huge issue with the “BR did it” theory is yes, as a mom, I would do anything for my children. But I wouldn’t immediately give up on my daughter’s life “welp, she’s dead, I better concoct a crazy story and choke her” to protect my son who is a young child and will not go to the electric chair himself. It’s so unequal. There is no evidence they valued BR more than Jonbenet. So why would they give up any hope of helping her and immediately try to cover up an accident? Why not just say it was an accident that was her fault (e.g., she attacked BR and he didn’t mean to hurt her). It’s just crazy and leads me to believe it must be one or both of the parents or a close friend of the family.

 

[TristanP]

My huge issue with the “BR did it” theory is yes, as a mom, I would do anything for my children. But I wouldn’t immediately give up on my daughter’s life “welp, she’s dead, I better concoct a crazy story and choke her” to protect my son who is a young child and will not go to the electric chair himself. It’s so unequal. There is no evidence they valued BR more than Jonbenet. So why would they give up any hope of helping her and immediately try to cover up an accident? Why not just say it was an accident that was her fault (e.g., she attacked BR and he didn’t mean to hurt her). It’s just crazy and leads me to believe it must be one or both of the parents or a close friend of the family.

They were just using their “good ok’ Southern common sense”, of course!

 

[aThousandYearsWide]

In regards to the wondering if the family is involved what explains the unknown DNA found in JonBenet's underwear and on her pajamas? I believe they have since believed that the DNA was a mixture from 3 different people, JonBenet and two unknown individuals.

Another thing is all the confessions for killing JonBenet but no evidence is there to investigate further or other reasons LE decides to not go forward with the tip. Gary Olivia had a friend that said he called him in the early morning hours that night. How was this account was dismissed?

 

[Tobiano8th]

multiple confessions to killing JBR doesn't help the parents.... maybe ONE confession would.................... Olivia had zero credibility. he needs to say that BEFORE the crime is publicized. afterwards, he's probably just a nut or his friend is.

on the DNA found on JBR, wasn't it minute amounts that could have come from factory workers?

 

[Tobiano8th]

law enforcement went forward with the john karr tip....... we saw how that worked out.

police deal with all kinds of nuts..... people come in and "admit" to be serial killers but they make it all up... why would someone do that? who knows? mental illness for starters

 

[DetectiveDipScat]

<modsnip> An encounter turned deadly and they all covered it up including PR who wrote the note. JR, PR, and others involved, staged JBR's body to look like she was going to be taken. <modsnip>

 

[UKGuy]

Totally respect your opinion and many people agree with you. What has always bothered me (and I’ve watched all the documentaries, etc.) is why anyone would cover up for BR if her death was an accident? The reason has always been given that they wouldn’t want to lose him, too, but he was just a child. He would not have gone to prison. So the parents stage the scene and strangle their daughter? It is just implausible to me, but who knows how insane people would go if they thought their child was dead. I certainly would never jump to “let me stage an incredibly complex murder scene and then lie for rest of my life.” I don’t think BR would be capable of keeping the secret at the time or for this many years. Imo

Tower,

but he was just a child. He would not have gone to prison.

Sure, but what if both JonBenet and Burke were in therapy prior to JonBenet's death and the parents had been advised to keep an eye on JonBenet?

Although prison was not an option as criminal charges were not applicable, medical detention would have been and both parents would have been aware of this.

This is the motive driving the airbrushing of Burke from the case.

Burke is his father's puppet, once JR leaves us Burke will be on his own, even if JR madates via his will restrictions on Burke's actions.

So if Burke is innocent he can indulge us with some IDI framed interviews.


The thing about PDI is that Patsy leaves far too much evidence behind to justify her attempting to stage herself out of the case. Including forgetting all about the breakfast bar pineapple snack.

There is minimal evidence linking JR but just enough to suggest he took an active part in the staging? Going by his post-mortem replies he appears to be reacting to events rather than leading them, finding JonBenet included.

There is zero forensic evidence linking to anyone outside the Ramsey household, so the case is definitely not IDI.

The most consistent explanation is BDI as the others all have holes, only JDI with Patsy staging for JR comes close.

The thing is Burke maybe knows he never actually killed JonBenet, being much older now, he realises one of his parents did.

So keeping secrets was not that difficult, especially when you know you can never face First Degree Murder charges!

.

 

[UKGuy]

In regards to the wondering if the family is involved what explains the unknown DNA found in JonBenet's underwear and on her pajamas? I believe they have since believed that the DNA was a mixture from 3 different people, JonBenet and two unknown individuals.

Another thing is all the confessions for killing JonBenet but no evidence is there to investigate further or other reasons LE decides to not go forward with the tip. Gary Olivia had a friend that said he called him in the early morning hours that night. How was this account was dismissed?

aThousandYearsWide,
The dna on her underwear could have come from anywhere, e.g. cross-transfer when using the toilet at the White's party. Even airborne transfer when undressing from her top to underwear, just a few cells is all that is required.

Then there is the packaging theory, i.e. transfer on being placed into a bag during manufacture?

DNA gets everywhere all the time, it's just that nobody notices until it's a rape or murder case then statistics are pulled out of the bag to suggest the chances are minimal.

One expert witness got his maths wrong, despite sending someone to jail for a long time. Then someone realized the maths were wrong and appealed the case, and an innocent person was released.

 

[aThousandYearsWide]

aThousandYearsWide,
The dna on her underwear could have come from anywhere, e.g. cross-transfer when using the toilet at the White's party. Even airborne transfer when undressing from her top to underwear, just a few cells is all that is required.

Then there is the packaging theory, i.e. transfer on being placed into a bag during manufacture?

DNA gets everywhere all the time, it's just that nobody notices until it's a rape or murder case then statistics are pulled out of the bag to suggest the chances are minimal.

One expert witness got his maths wrong, despite sending someone to jail for a long time. Then someone realized the maths were wrong and appealed the case, and an innocent person was released.

It's pretty fascinating yet frightening as someone that used to be a huge Germaphobe as a kid... I am a bit skeptical about it just because this was a girl that was home in her nightclothes in bed and we don't know if her underwear was even brandnew straight from the pack (unless I missed it). If she just came from a crowded area, festival, or Disney World maybe I could see it. I wonder if the family had a maid or nanny situation that folded her laundry? That would make more sense to me than someone that randomly came into contact with her or touched something that she came into contact with. I did find an interesting article on the subject that mentions JonBenet's case.

"Touch DNA is also central to the murder case of Colorado toddler JonBenet Ramsey. Thanks to joint reporting by Denver’s 9News and the Boulder Daily Camera, current Boulder County district attorney Stan Garnett announced three weeks ago that he is reopening the DNA portion of the investigation initially conducted by his predecessor, Mary Lacy. In 2008, she concluded in a letter exonerating the Ramsey family that an unknown male’s DNA on JonBenet’s underwear must belong to the killer because no innocent explanation existed for its presence." ‘Touch DNA’ Evidence Can Lead to Convictions for Innocent People | National Review

In my personal opinion I can see how DNA can be transfered like this but am skeptical because of not hearing about it widespread in other murder cases. If it was that common to be covered in others DNA constantly then wouldn't DNA evidence not be as credible as it is in court?

Also the placement of the DNA inside the little girls underwear where a possible vaginal injury was noted during her autopsy. Sorry I am a bit skeptical. That article is really interesting if you get a chance to read it.

 

[Tower]

Tower,

Sure, but what if both JonBenet and Burke were in therapy prior to JonBenet's death and the parents had been advised to keep an eye on JonBenet?

Although prison was not an option as criminal charges were not applicable, medical detention would have been and both parents would have been aware of this.
.

Respectfully, our US mental health system may be different from where you live. That is to say, we barely have mental health services here, no joke. I work with foster kids, so I’m pretty familiar with mental health treatment and criminal charges against children. Are you saying by the above quote that the parents may have been told BR was violent and would kill JonBenet? There is no “medical detention” in the US for a 9-year-old who accidentally kills his sister.

It is my educated opinion that BR would never have been taken away from his parents for any reason, especially if they said it was an accident. There would be some small chance if he killed another child, but if his parents defended and lied for him for killing his sister, a young boy would not be institutionalized in the US.

I really appreciate your perspective because I know many people agree with you and they think this is why BDI and his parents covered it up. I still don’t understand, but I would like to understand what drove the insane coverup because BDI makes some sense to me. Thank you.

 

[proust20]

A reason not to call for help to assist an injured JB is to cover up her chronic SA, which would have been discovered at the hospital. A maniacal intruder(s) had to be conjured up in order to divert responsibility from the family. As SA was part of the staging, it indicates that at least one of the three Rs was aware of prior events. That she had endured this treatment without aid of her parents might be behind the language of the GJ indictments.

The indictments can be interpreted as BDI. ITA that BDI offers the most consistent reading of the available evidence. The weak link in it for me is the motivation. An impulsive moment of rage is often behind BDI. This could account for the head blow, but not for the strangulation, which was the cause of death. BR might rationalize that, since he didn't asphyxiate JB, he didn't kill his sister? No one claims that BR wrote the RN.

DNA is the last refuge of Team R. Why was JB wearing the size 12s under long johns to begin with? JR has no answers to the most important, lingering questions; and so, he uses the DNA purely as a diversion.