GUILTY OH Pike Co., 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #63

[ohioexpat63]

Does the role of home schooling and potential lack of interaction with peers play a role in all this? Were the boys so isolated their sense of reality was totally skewed by the failure of both parents? In no way would any of this lessen their heinous cowardly acts. I'm just trying to figure out the impossible, why? Why murder 8 over custody of a child when by most accounts they had full access.

Speculating, imo, moo

 

[Tiff23fr]

Does the role of home schooling and potential lack of interaction with peers play a role in all this? Were the boys so isolated their sense of reality was totally skewed by the failure of both parents? In no way would any of this lessen their heinous cowardly acts. I'm just trying to figure out the impossible, why? Why murder 8 over custody of a child when by most accounts they had full access.

Speculating, imo, moo

If they were homeschooled, it will play a role in how their thinking and behaviors evolved over time. Learned patterns and behaviors would have been derived from fewer sources of influence and contact. The behaviors and what “makes sense” to someone is like an onion. As you peel away each layer and work your way to the core many factors start to make up the whole. For example, socio-economic dynamics, past impressions, family values, what has been permitted or promoted in their lives, intrinsic and extrinsic motivations, would all come into play. These factors will shape the thought and rationalization process for achieving a desired result.

It doesn’t lessen the crimes as you thankfully point out. Criminals do horribly criminal things, but even criminals act on a basis of what makes sense to them, in their own minds, to achieve their desired goal or outcome. It wouldn’t make sense to you or I.

Please understand I feel what they have done is HORRIBLE and the justice system will take care of that. I only offer this line of discussion to show it is very unlikely that the W’s woke up one day and all agreed that these murders were a good idea to achieve whatever end goal they had in mind. It was an evolution of their self perceived values and motivations shifting over the years. Ultimately the apex of ascending behaviors converged, and this became the solution to achieving their desired goal.

 

[Betty P]

Does the role of home schooling and potential lack of interaction with peers play a role in all this? Were the boys so isolated their sense of reality was totally skewed by the failure of both parents? In no way would any of this lessen their heinous cowardly acts. I'm just trying to figure out the impossible, why? Why murder 8 over custody of a child when by most accounts they had full access.

Speculating, imo, moo

Yes, evidence has shown for decades that social interaction with others is key to healthy development. Being isolated and only exposed to the thoughts, opinions, etc. of your family or similar restricted social circle can leave people unable to transition and cope with real world relationships.

If the home schooling is linked to other reasons for social isolation,(e.g. religious beliefs), it can result in "othering" of people outside the home. In some extreme cases, young males went on to have dysfuctional and violent relationships with women.

In the case of the Wagners, it seemed to contribute to their problem as an "enmeshed" family. Some parents can probably handle home schooling better than others. The Wagner parents didn't seem to have a healthy relationship, so that would have been transferred to the sons.

I'm not sure of any statistical significance, but we have seen quite a few cases in the news and here at WS where kids and families who did home schooling and were "enmeshed" developed serious problems with violence towards others and abuse at home. This case is one of them. I'm not finding any data and it's probably not being measured in the cases of young adults who engage in violent crimes.

One case where I felt the homeschooling and orthodoxy might have had an impact on the killers:

Nicole Lovell: A timeline of the two years since her disappearance

Another killer who seemed to develop serious problems as he tried to transition into adulthood

Austin serial bombings - Wikipedia

All JMO

It doesn't mean everyone who is home schooled will turn out bad. It's possbily more like kids who have problems will have difficulty coping.

 

[Piffcat]

Welcome to Websleuths, Piffcat! I hope you enjoy visiting here. We always like to welcome new members!

Thanks Betty! Passionate bout justice forsurvivirs family!

 

[Cool Cats]

I wonder what the best defense will be for George to get lesser charge than Life in Prison? Maybe play upon the sympathy of the jurors for Murder 2nd?

No juror will be sympathetic in any way shape or form in my estimation. We here on this thread are a good representation of what the jury will think.

Prosecutors will never change George's first degree aggravated murder charges into 2nd degree. Why? Too much evidence of the Wagner family pre-planning it.

I will bet my bottom dollar this will be George's ultimate outcome when all is said and done ... LWOP.

George asked the court 2X's for Bond and the other 3 never even asked once. Billy almost did but for some reason his attorneys cancelled it.

So we can see that George is anxious to get back to his previous life. Seriously, I am not surprised in the least about him choosing trial because the alternate is pleading guilty and dying in prison with no access to completely control his son.

His motivation is not just his freedom but to be able to kick down his son's bio mom and have 100% custody. The Wagners had a plot .. take him to AK and not let bio mom see him for a long time then accuse bio mom of abandoning him if she files for more custody. They already curtailed visitation and then would not let the mom be alone with her son.

This is how the Wagners operate. Jail won't change them.

From Other Acts Evidence

 

[Betty P]

No juror will be sympathetic in any way shape or form in my estimation. We here on this thread are a good representation of what the jury will think.

Prosecutors will never change George's first degree aggravated murder charges into 2nd degree. Why? Too much evidence of the Wagner family pre-planning it.

I will bet my bottom dollar this will be George's ultimate outcome when all is said and done ... LWOP.

George asked the court 2X's for Bond and the other 3 never even asked once. Billy almost did but for some reason his attorneys cancelled it.

So we can see that George is anxious to get back to his previous life. Seriously, I am not surprised in the least about him choosing trial because the alternate is pleading guilty and dying in prison with no access to completely control his son.

His motivation is not just his freedom but to be able to kick down his son's bio mom and have 100% custody. The Wagners had a plot .. take him to AK and not let bio mom see him for a long time then accuse bio mom of abandoning him if she files for more custody. They already curtailed visitation and then would not let the mom be alone with her son.

This is how the Wagners operate. Jail won't change them.

From Other Acts Evidence

Pretty sure the jury is not allowed to change the charges against any of the Wagners. That's only done by the prosecution and judge. JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

Pretty sure the jury is not allowed to change the charges against any of the Wagners. That's only done by the prosecution and judge. JMO

I specifically said:

"Prosecutors will never change George's first degree aggravated murder charges into 2nd degree. Why? Too much evidence of the Wagner family pre-planning it."

 

[Betty P]

I specifically said:

"Prosecutors will never change George's first degree aggravated murder charges into 2nd degree. Why? Too much evidence of the Wagner family pre-planning it."

Got it. I'm glad we all agree.

 

[Johnny B Bad]

So CC do you think a lot of the Other Acts that the prosecution presented to the defense came from Jake Wagner:
The reason I ask is, how did the prosecution know about the fires on Wagner property that where set by the Wagners, also in the Other Acts it talks about that the Wagners has killed or attempted to kill before and all the stilling the the Wagners did , Tractors and trailer, and exc.
It looks like Jake Wagner has told on all the family!

 

[Cool Cats]

So CC do you think a lot of the Other Acts that the prosecution presented to the defense came from Jake Wagner:
The reason I ask is, how did the prosecution know about the fires on Wagner property that where set by the Wagners, also in the Other Acts it talks about that the Wagners has killed or attempted to kill before and all the stilling the the Wagners did , Tractors and trailer, and exc.
It looks like Jake Wagner has told on all the family!

03/08/2021 (MOTION #54.1)
DEFENDANT'S SUPPLELMENTAL MEMORANDUM IN SUPPORT OF HIS MOTION TO COMPEL THE PRODUCTION OF "OTHER ACTS" EVIDENCE.

The Other Acts Evidence was presented to the defense before he did his plea. It is the last piece of evidence presented by the prosecution that got Jake to confess so he won't be put to death. He was fast approaching death row.

How I see it.

 

[Betty P]

So CC do you think a lot of the Other Acts that the prosecution presented to the defense came from Jake Wagner:
The reason I ask is, how did the prosecution know about the fires on Wagner property that where set by the Wagners, also in the Other Acts it talks about that the Wagners has killed or attempted to kill before and all the stilling the the Wagners did , Tractors and trailer, and exc.
It looks like Jake Wagner has told on all the family!

The fires at FWF were well known at the time, esp the horse barn fire that killed valuable animals. It was investigated by LE and insurance companies.

Fire destroys family's top show horses

 

[everybodhi]

Yes, evidence has shown for decades that social interaction with others is key to healthy development. Being isolated and only exposed to the thoughts, opinions, etc. of your family or similar restricted social circle can leave people unable to transition and cope with real world relationships.

If the home schooling is linked to other reasons for social isolation,(e.g. religious beliefs), it can result in "othering" of people outside the home. In some extreme cases, young males went on to have dysfuctional and violent relationships with women.

In the case of the Wagners, it seemed to contribute to their problem as an "enmeshed" family. Some parents can probably handle home schooling better than others. The Wagner parents didn't seem to have a healthy relationship, so that would have been transferred to the sons.

I'm not sure of any statistical significance, but we have seen quite a few cases in the news and here at WS where kids and families who did home schooling and were "enmeshed" developed serious problems with violence towards others and abuse at home. This case is one of them. I'm not finding any data and it's probably not being measured in the cases of young adults who engage in violent crimes.

One case where I felt the homeschooling and orthodoxy might have had an impact on the killers:

Nicole Lovell: A timeline of the two years since her disappearance

Another killer who seemed to develop serious problems as he tried to transition into adulthood

Austin serial bombings - Wikipedia

All JMO

It doesn't mean everyone who is home schooled will turn out bad. It's possbily more like kids who have problems will have difficulty coping.

I support public schooling but I have noticed there are now homeschooling associations that have group events like meet-ups and field trips so their kids have some social life outside the home, however, it may not be as diverse a group as a public school setting.

 

[Johnny B Bad]

03/08/2021 (MOTION #54.1)
DEFENDANT'S SUPPLELMENTAL MEMORANDUM IN SUPPORT OF HIS MOTION TO COMPEL THE PRODUCTION OF "OTHER ACTS" EVIDENCE.

The Other Acts Evidence was presented to the defense before he did his plea. It is the last piece of evidence presented by the prosecution that got Jake to confess so he won't be put to death. He was fast approaching death row.

How I see it
Someone close to the family is doing a lot of talking, IMO

 

[Cool Cats]

@Johnny B Bad

Your quote to me:

"Someone close to the family is doing a lot of talking, IMO"

<modsnip>

A couple Wagner relatives have done Rhoden Podcasts but did not want to give their names.

All the Rhoden Podcasts where people spoke out for the Rhodens they gave their names.

Humm

No names - Wagners
Give their names - Rhodens

This tells alot in my book. Consider a 2 Cent Opinion.

 

[Ann99]

I remember reading that post on Dana's Facebook. For some reason that one really sticks in my mind. "Fly High" she said. She really cared about him.

She asked him to protect them from the evil ones. I will never forget that. Alot of speculation has gone into if the evil ones were the Wagners. Humm?

In 2014 everything was hunky-dory in Wagner land. No need to wipe anyone out. Hanna and Jake were soposedly living back and forth between the 2 families. Their child was just a small baby then, months old.

Everything changed in 2015. Had his accident happened in 2015 I would research it.

MO.
I disagree, just because of my feeling that DR was the driving force in the R family as it pertained to HR and S. And AW knew that.
You may be right, but my feeling is highly suspicious of when AW and W's began to plan for obtaining complete custody.
We don't know what HR was saying privately to DR regarding life with JW and the W's in general - during pregnancy and the following years. DR was a strong woman who spoke her mind, always. I believe HR confided in her and a few others. Again, my speculation.

Why do you say everything changed in 2015?
That may have been when the troubles became more public, out in the open.
I believe the troubles started much earlier and remained under wraps, simmering for a time.

 

[Cool Cats]

MO.
I disagree, just because of my feeling that DR was the driving force in the R family as it pertained to HR and S. And AW knew that.
You may be right, but my feeling is highly suspicious of when AW and W's began to plan for obtaining complete custody.
We don't know what HR was saying privately to DR regarding life with JW and the W's in general - during pregnancy and the following years. DR was a strong woman who spoke her mind, always. I believe HR confided in her and a few others. Again, my speculation.

Why do you say everything changed in 2015?
That may have been when the troubles became more public, out in the open.
I believe the troubles started much earlier and remained under wraps, simmering for a time.

I say 2015 because their child was born the end of 2014. In 20015 she dumped Jake, got pregnant with CG's child, then started dating CH. Jake did not like the guys that HR was bringing his daughter around.

The events in 2015 cumulated to the plans they made in 2016.

The forged custody documents were dated for December 2014.

Opinion

 

[Ann99]

I say 2015 because their child was born the end of 2014. In 20015 she dumped Jake, got pregnant with CG's child, then started dating CH. Jake did not like the guys that HR was bringing his daughter around.

The events in 2015 cumulated to the plans they made in 2016.

The forged custody documents were dated for December 2014.

Opinion

All good points.

 

[Covert Operative]

@Johnny B Bad

Your quote to me:

"Someone close to the family is doing a lot of talking, IMO"

<modsnip>

A couple Wagner relatives have done Rhoden Podcasts but did not want to give their names.

All the Rhoden Podcasts where people spoke out for the Rhodens they gave their names.

Humm

No names - Wagners
Give their names - Rhodens

This tells alot in my book. Consider a 2 Cent Opinion.

The one person was named in the podcast that was on the Wagner side. The one that called them Betty Crocker and the dough boys. They live several states away though. The family member that said that JW said he was going to kill HR several times on the Wagner side was not named and I sure wish they had of been.

 

[Johnny B Bad]

I just was watching Jake Wagners video of him pleading guilty, it is a shame to let these monsters off the death penalty, I in larger Jake Wagner face during his guilty plea and he is definitely Smiling when he is talking about HG and HR. JMO
Does anyone think Jake has some kind of mental illness other than psycho that makes him smile over hurting women or maybe just hurting the ones that hurt him?

 

[Chelly]

Pretty sure the jury is not allowed to change the charges against any of the Wagners. That's only done by the prosecution and judge. JMO

I never said change the charges:
Of course the jury can't change the charges, but shortly before trial, prosecution could add second degree murder charge, not change the Murder 1 charge. Sometimes a jury struggles if the only choice is between Murder 1 and Not Guilty.