Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #136

[sunshineray]

Even though LE had no basis to suspect foul play, what do you think should’ve happened that would’ve made a difference? We’ve been told by LE the girls were murdered minutes after the video was taken, which would’ve been well before the missing persons report was filed @appx 5:30pm.

BBM
New 'Face' of the Delphi Murder Suspect
“This is the face of the suspect that goes with body of the video captured on Liberty German's cell phone minutes before she and Abigail Williams were murdered.”

I think lights should have been brought in and the search never officially called off. I honestly think if I'd been BP or AW I would have felt totally abandoned by the professionals tasked with protecting and serving me in my time of greatest need.

I don't think LE took into consideration enough the nature of the missing girls, what the family was telling them. When they, the family had exhausted the places and friends list of where they could be, the professionals should have realized the urgency and either very bad injury or foul play was probably the reason why the girls were missing and not calling.

We know now the girls were already dead, LE didnt know that and a very cold night was commencing. It was not the time to stop searching. AJMO

 

[Boxer]

Even though LE had no basis to suspect foul play, what do you think should’ve happened that would’ve made a difference? We’ve been told by LE the girls were murdered minutes after the video was taken, which would’ve been well before the missing persons report was filed @appx 5:30pm.

BBM
New 'Face' of the Delphi Murder Suspect
“This is the face of the suspect that goes with body of the video captured on Liberty German's cell phone minutes before she and Abigail Williams were murdered.”[/QUOTSaying they were calling off the search did make a difference.
MOO It sounded like indifference or foolishness; at worst they will be cold and hungry.

 

[Thelastleg]

All kinds of scenarios are of course possible, but the person who first said this has explained twice that the "twist" he referred to is that these missing girls were found murdered, whereas the typical missing person in Carroll County is found alive (presumably with no foul play involved).

It's curious how we wonder what the "twist" is and when we get the answer in MSM (in this case we got it twice), we don't accept it. His answer was a wicked let-down, I'll give everyone that.

Imo, very poor choice of words from LE again. They really shouldn't be allowed to do interviews with out a carefully scripted response from their press team. Twist to me is "deviation of direction" which suggests more about how they were going down one line of enquiry when they got evidence that they were on the wrong track. Robert Ives comments on peculiar things at the scene of the crime would make me think of a twist. Saying that we were out looking for two disappeared girls and gosh what a twist we found them brutally murdered, is a rather glib. However, LE in this case has made a lot of ambiguous comments so who knows.

 

[Laura456]

Imo, very poor choice of words from LE again. They really shouldn't be allowed to do interviews with out a carefully scripted response from their press team. Twist to me is "deviation of direction" which suggests more about how they were going down one line of enquiry when they got evidence that they were on the wrong track. Robert Ives comments on peculiar things at the scene of the crime would make me think of a twist. Saying that we were out looking for two disappeared girls and gosh what a twist we found them brutally murdered, is a rather glib. However, LE in this case has made a lot of ambiguous comments so who knows.

If my family member was murdered in this way and I heard police say that about them, I'd be very annoyed.

 

[Thelastleg]

If my family member was murdered in this way and I heard police say that about them, I'd be very annoyed.

Me too

 

[FrostedGlass]

All kinds of scenarios are of course possible, but the person who first said this has explained twice that the "twist" he referred to is that these missing girls were found murdered, whereas the typical missing person in Carroll County is found alive (presumably with no foul play involved).

It's curious how we wonder what the "twist" is and when we get the answer in MSM (in this case we got it twice), we don't accept it. His answer was a wicked let-down, I'll give everyone that.

The non-acceptance is probably because his answer only led to more questions.

He could have said: "The "twist" is..." but instead he said: "One of the main "twists"..." which leads people to speculate what the other main twists are and about all the non-main twists.

I gave up on The twist and accept that there are probably some odd things that happened in this case.

 

[news buff]

Libby was heralded as a hero for taking the video. IMO the scenario that’s most possible is LE could never have predicted this case would go unsolved for more than four years and meanwhile every word they spoke represented the potential of being twisted into some sort of code talk. JMO

“State Police called Liberty "Libby" German "a hero" for thinking to record the suspect while the crime was happening.

"This lady is a hero. There is no doubt. To have the presence of mind to activate the video on her cell phone," ISP Sgt. Tony Slocum said…”
Delphi murders: Four years later, unsolved case haunts teens' families

libby is and aways will be a hero. That does not mean that different things may have been found out.

 

[Justice101]

following

 

[303gmf]

I think lights should have been brought in and the search never officially called off. I honestly think if I'd been BP or AW I would have felt totally abandoned by the professionals tasked with protecting and serving me in my time of greatest need.

I don't think LE took into consideration enough the nature of the missing girls, what the family was telling them. When they, the family had exhausted the places and friends list of where they could be, the professionals should have realized the urgency and either very bad injury or foul play was probably the reason why the girls were missing and not calling.

We know now the girls were already dead, LE didnt know that and a very cold night was commencing. It was not the time to stop searching. AJMO

I mentioned a similar thought many moons ago, all the attacking about rough terrain, dark, cold etc made me wonder why so defensive?
Maybe being from a mountain resort state clouded my judgement of searching capabilities and terrain limitations in what appears basically farmland and creek area and lack of search and rescue teams, idk

 

[Nancy1954]

@ 303gmf.. I share yours and sunshineray's thoughts and always have. The search that night should never have been stopped by LE, I don't care how tired people were, you call assistance in from other districts if necessary, you do whatever you have to do to find those two girls on a cold February night. Two girls that were known to be responsible young ladies, that would never have chosen to put their families through worry like this. It should have been police protocol. But it was just the right thing to do, that is why.

 

[steeltowngirl]

<modsnip - quoted post removed>

I can’t speak to your first question, but these articles may answer your second question.

Hundreds reclaim Delphi's trails for peace

County's top scholars are named | Carroll County Comet

 

[Yemelyan]

If my family member was murdered in this way and I heard police say that about them, I'd be very annoyed.

I think it would depend on the tone and context of how it was said. "Gosh, what a twist, we found them murdered." Yeah, that sounds horrible - but it wasn't what was said.

Right at the end of episode 2 of Scene of the Crime ("Missing"), TL mentions "the twist." This isn't the only place he uses that word, but it's where he explains it. He talks about how he was at the Command Center when the call arrived that the girls were found and that they were dead. He describes a feeling of shock or disbelief that came over him in that moment that was almost paralyzing. (The Fire Chief in the same segment describes similar feelings.) So as TL is talking and you hear his words describing his emotions, you realize that when he says "twist" in this context he doesn't mean "a suspenseful, dramatic, weird aspect of the crime." He hadn't even seen the crime scene yet. He had no suspects, nor did he have a guess at methodology or motive. Instead, "twist" was him thinking that he was running a rescue operation and suddenly finding out it was actually a murder investigation.

When he talks about it, he's not glib. If anything, there's sorrow in how he talks about it. Scene of the Crime: Delphi - Delphi: Missing on Stitcher

Would it have been better to say "I felt like the rug was ripped out from under me" instead of "there's a twist to this case I have never seen"? Sure. The former would have been a much better way to express that he was shocked and in disbelief. Are people who follow and read about true crime (like us) likely to associate "twist" with the crazy twists and turns of a page turning novel where dramatic revelations keep us excitedly on the edge of our seat? Yes. So was it the wrong word? Probably. But I think he chose "twist" to denote that he had to change directions in his thinking process. And also - he didn't know that every word he uttered would be mined for hidden clues.

Having said all that, I do agree with all who say no one on this case is well-spoken. Even the press officers stumble over words, give incorrect information, or speak in unclear ways. Most of the professionals involved in this case are, by and large, small town people with small town experiences to draw from.

 

[TTF14]

Thank you for finding these references. It really gives a feeling of what was going through the minds of the family members. Was it an accident? I think BP leaned this way at first. Or were they looking for "two grounded little girls?" I think this was the way AW leaned at first. Both were dealing with it in their own way, it's understandable.

Even with a carefully crafted response, the answers are confusing. For example:

Q. In the public domain there have been descriptions of the crime scene, descriptions of items found and the positioning of the bodies. Do you feel there was an excessive number of persons present once it was determined to be a crime scene?

A. Once secured by law enforcement as a crime scene, no. I would surmise that searchers did not immediately know what they had come upon.

(bbm) What in the world does that mean?

From: County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet

 

[Yemelyan]

Even with a carefully crafted response, the answers are confusing. For example:

Q. In the public domain there have been descriptions of the crime scene, descriptions of items found and the positioning of the bodies. Do you feel there was an excessive number of persons present once it was determined to be a crime scene?

A. Once secured by law enforcement as a crime scene, no. I would surmise that searchers did not immediately know what they had come upon.

(bbm) What in the world does that mean?

From: County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet

This one is confusing because it's not clear if he's answering this: "are descriptions of the crime scene that are out in the public domain correct?" Possible answer: "No, descriptions are not correct. Searchers did not know what they had come upon."

Or is he answering this: "Were there too many people at the crime scene?"
Possible answer: "After we secured it as a crime scene, no - only the proper number were there at that time. However, before we secured it, a non-optimal number of people stumbled right in because they didn't immediately know what they had come upon."

Well, how is that second answer even possible? IMO searchers may have walked right into the scene either because they didn't see the bodies right away OR because they did see them but thought the girls had died due to exposure, not murder. Remember...no one thought they were looking for murdered girls that morning. They were looking for "lost" girls.

Either way, with no way to ask him a follow up question (remember, these questions were submitted to him in advance and in writing), we will likely never know for sure which part of the question he was answering.

 

[FrostedGlass]

If LE thought for a while that the girls died from exposure, that's the only thing that makes sense about the decision to cancel the search dog team.

What was done to the scene that made LE request pics from the area before the murders?

Who does crime scene investigations for Delphi?

 

[carbuff]

I think the twist aspect is so significant to officers because they realized instantly that because they were treating it as a missing persons case, they had not been following proper protocols for managing a crime scene, and that lots of evidence had been irreparably damaged, opportunities lost, and all the other things we complain about routinely.

 

[MistyWaters]

When I read his answer to the "twist" question in the Comet Q&A it blew my mind because I never would have guessed that was what he meant by it. Then shortly afterwards I re-listened to the Down the Hill podcast, and TL also explains what the twist is in one of his interviews. It was, I believe at the end of episode 2 when he is discussing finding out that their bodies were discovered and the outcome was not what he expected. That was the "twist" - he expected to find them alive. His thoughts on that had already been out there for over a year and I never even realized that he had explained it before.

I’m certain he did indeed expect they’d be found alive, as did the families. Even now we still grapple with the fact how nobody heard screams, how nobody witnessed anything suspicious enough at the time for LE to suspect foul play was involved in the girls’ disappearance.

At worst, after the Snapchat photo surfaced, it may’ve been feared they fell off the bridge into the creek. But without the use of ropes and pullies to engage in a very dangerous nighttime operation to search the creek banks, I can’t imagine a small county would’ve had the expertise to undertake such a operation considering the treacherous steep banks.

For every unsolved case here on WS, it we wanted to critique with the benefit of hindsight, we’d find at least one action had LE done differently, the crime might’ve been solved by now. In this Delphi case, even if the bodies had been found a few minutes after midnight, I don’t think it would’ve made any difference to the outcome other than the crime scene could’ve been processed maybe about four hours earlier in daylight but the girls still wouldn’t have been located safe and alive. JMO

 

[steeltowngirl]

The non-acceptance is probably because his answer only led to more questions.

He could have said: "The "twist" is..." but instead he said: "One of the main "twists"..." which leads people to speculate what the other main twists are and about all the non-main twists.

I gave up on The twist and accept that there are probably some odd things that happened in this case.

I am with you. I gave up on trying to make sense of the “twist” and also the “shack” long ago.

 

[Yemelyan]

If LE thought for a while that the girls died from exposure, that's the only thing that makes sense about the decision to cancel the search dog team.

What was done to the scene that made LE request pics from the area before the murders?

Who does crime scene investigations for Delphi?

I have no idea if LE thought for a time that they might have succumbed to exposure, I kind of doubt it. But I have no problem believing that searchers might have assumed this originally. They went out there in one frame of mind, to find lost girls, not murdered girls. They really had no prior idea that they might stumble into a crime scene. IMO most people cannot look at even a violent scene and decode right away exactly what they are looking at, and especially not if they weren't mentally prepared to see it.

 

[MistyWaters]

I am with you. I gave up on trying to make sense of the “twist” and also the “shack” long ago.

I’ve followed cases where I’ve wondered at times if certain obscure comments made by LE are intended to intentionally provoke the unknown killer, rattle his chains so to speak, but until this case never that LE are dropping clues so the general public can guess about known aspects of the crime or the identity of the killer, resembling a fantasy murder mystery.

We want to know more information but is speculation via intense analysis of all the various definitions of words in our English language also part of the reason why we don’t?

Delphi murders 2019: Libby German's sister debunks rumors on YouTube
“In regards to her father, she said that he shies away from making public statements because of how they may be used against the family.

"He knows that people will play a game of telephone with him. They will change our words, they twist our words all the time and he doesn't want you guys to do that," she said. "He knows that it's a cat and mouse game. Somebody says something and then all the vicious monsters are coming out to get you."…”