GUILTY UK - Sarah Everard, 33, London, Clapham Common area, 3 Mar 2021 *Awaiting Sentencing*, #15

[mrjitty]

It was mainly unnamed ex-pupils who were quoted, and I always suspected that they were mostly fictional and the comments were made up by the tabloid hacks. There was a certain similarity of style about it all. I noticed that named individuals who were quoted spoke quite highly of Mr Jefferies.

For me the difference is that WC was charged with murder, so the media looked into his background, whereas the tabloids used supposedly salacious information about Jefferies to try to imply he was guilty.

The Tabs often try to use lifestyle/personality to try to imply people are sex offenders - we are not long past the era when being gay meant you might be a pedo according to the tabs.

However I think this guy being called "rapist" and women being uncomfortable around him is directly relevant to what he ended up doing.

When I started my first professional job, the women in my year group were warned who not to get in a lift with. I think this kind of information is worth digging up - these things don't come from nowhere.

 

[cestmoi]

When I started my first professional job, the women in my year group were warned who not to get in a lift with. I think this kind of information is worth digging up - these things don't come from nowhere.

Once upon a time, not in the UK, I did some volunteering with a charity that offered support to sex workers. Many of the ones I knew were working on the streets or within dodgy, run-down hotel buildings. There was a list, routinely updated and distributed around the sex workers, of "bad dates" - guys they should not get into a car with. I saw the bad date list often - physical descriptions, car number plates. WC has apparently admitted to using sex workers and if his sexual preferences are violent, it would be helpful to know if something like the "bad date list" exists. I am trying to think of how any relevant information from sex workers could be found out, in relation to this case.

 

[mrjitty]

Once upon a time, not in the UK, I did some volunteering with a charity that offered support to sex workers. Many of the ones I knew were working on the streets or within dodgy, run-down hotel buildings. There was a list, routinely updated and distributed around the sex workers, of "bad dates" - guys they should not get into a car with. I saw the bad date list often - physical descriptions, car number plates. WC has apparently admitted to using sex workers and if his sexual preferences are violent, it would be helpful to know if something like the "bad date list" exists. I am trying to think of how any relevant information from sex workers could be found out, in relation to this case.

This is my suspicion as well.

In other cases, a place where the perp acted out his violent fantasies was with vulnerable sex workers.

I would bet money on his wife a victim of abuse as well, but I understand why women often don't talk.

 

[cestmoi]

I would bet money on his wife a victim of abuse as well, but I understand why women often don't talk.

I can respect your thoughts on that, although mine differ - I suspect that his relationship with his wife was carefully kept separate from any sexual violence (that he used other outlets for this, probably very frequently and in a very extreme way IMO). There may have been other aspects that his wife, maybe only in hindsight, would question now - for example, the frequency and duration of times he was not at home (possibly attributed to being "at work" in a confidential capacity that he wouldn't give many details about?). I may be wrong. I think maintaining separate identities in this regard may have been important to him.

Edited to add: His wife would have been somewhat vulnerable, however, especially when she first came over to the UK, being isolated from family, language, culture and likely reliant on him for a period of time. I think he would have loved that level of control. Control, but not necessarily abuse (for her).

 

[mrjitty]

I can respect your thoughts on that, although mine differ - I suspect that his relationship with his wife was carefully kept separate from any sexual violence (that he used other outlets for this, probably very frequently and in a very extreme way IMO). There may have been other aspects that his wife, maybe only in hindsight, would question now - for example, the frequency and duration of times he was not at home (possibly attributed to being "at work" in a confidential capacity that he wouldn't give many details about?). I may be wrong. I think maintaining separate identities in this regard may have been important to him.

Edited to add: His wife would have been somewhat vulnerable, however, especially when she first came over to the UK, being isolated from family, language, culture and likely reliant on him for a period of time. I think he would have loved that level of control. Control, but not necessarily abuse (for her).

Depends on what we mean by abuse - i don't necessarily mean physical.

I doubt this guy was capable of having genuine relationships with anyone. And as you point out, the attraction of a foreign bride is that dependance. Ultimately she and the kids have ended up as victims, whatever the past.

 

[cestmoi]

Depends on what we mean by abuse - i don't necessarily mean physical.

I doubt this guy was capable of having genuine relationships with anyone. And as you point out, the attraction of a foreign bride is that dependance. Ultimately she and the kids have ended up as victims, whatever the past.

Very good point. His relationships were likely dysfunctional on some level. At the very least, his wife and children are victims of his lies and are suffering the consequences of those. They may be victims of much more than that, but certainly they are victims.

 

[Moll]

It is actually common to use 'unnamed sources" in mainstream broadsheets, same as in the US.

Anyone who follows politics or football is used to seeing stories attributed to "no 10 sources" or "club sources" - especially where the identity of the spokesperson is not critical to the story.

Just because a story is not attributed, does not mean the source is invented.

The practice is not without controversy of course, but the idea that all reputable papers don't use unnamed sources is not correct.

A separate issue is tabloid journalists trumping up anonymous sources, but such papers tend to report nonsense even from named sources.

I'm sure you're right, having been a freelance journalist myself and more recently having supplied information to both the Mirror and the Mail on condition of anonymity. In both cases it was because identifying me would have identified a third party plus in one case there was a danger of retribution from a criminal. In both cases I must say that the story was accurately reported. As you say, there's a separate issue of nonsense reported even from named sources.

 

[JuicyLucy]

Once upon a time, not in the UK, I did some volunteering with a charity that offered support to sex workers. Many of the ones I knew were working on the streets or within dodgy, run-down hotel buildings. There was a list, routinely updated and distributed around the sex workers, of "bad dates" - guys they should not get into a car with. I saw the bad date list often - physical descriptions, car number plates. WC has apparently admitted to using sex workers and if his sexual preferences are violent, it would be helpful to know if something like the "bad date list" exists. I am trying to think of how any relevant information from sex workers could be found out, in relation to this case.

I'm sure that local detectives will have connections they can use to find that kind of thing out. In fact, I imagine that's already happened.

Personally, I think that something of this sort explains the hire car, and also the lack of care in hiding his identity in the course of hiring the car. I know that some people cite the hire car as evidence of premeditation in Sarah's abduction, but to my mind he did not expect the Met to end up crawling all over his business so much as wanted not to be recognisable from previous encounters.

I wouldn't be surprised to find he's subjected other women to sexual attacks in the past, but I'm expecting them to be sex workers or particularly vulnerable and powerless women, e.g. homeless. I think that stopping on the South Circular when he saw Sarah walking home was an impulse decision and, from his perspective, an error of judgement. As well as the ease with which all the car data came out, that would also explain stupid errors like keeping his phone on. I would think he'd pulled the warrant card out before though. The act of getting Sarah into the car seems to have been practised, even if what happened afterwards looks like a panicky mess.

We'll probably never know for sure though. Even if he starts talking, it will be hard to feel we can rely on what comes out.

JMO

 

[Newthoughts]

For me the difference is that WC was charged with murder, so the media looked into his background, whereas the tabloids used supposedly salacious information about Jefferies to try to imply he was guilty.

The Tabs often try to use lifestyle/personality to try to imply people are sex offenders - we are not long past the era when being gay meant you might be a pedo according to the tabs.

However I think this guy being called "rapist" and women being uncomfortable around him is directly relevant to what he ended up doing.

When I started my first professional job, the women in my year group were warned who not to get in a lift with. I think this kind of information is worth digging up - these things don't come from nowhere.

The office perv used to be a vile but common hazard of working life and, hypocritically, papers like the Mail were the first and loudest in bemoaning the removal of the right to make women's life unpleasant. The #me too movement really upset the Mail.

If you look at British comedy from the 60s and 70s sexual harassment was a staple. My kids recently caught an old carry on films and pointed out people were chuckling at attempted rape and pedophilia. So in the not too distant past it was culturally accepted tho always unpleasant and wrong

I agree they are things in his past that are relevant but I understand, culturally, why nobody did anything. I do wonder how much derision the colleague that reported him for smacking her bottom got and how many other colleagues were put off reporting

 

[Officer Dibble]

What do mean front seat down? - wouldn’t be able to unless it was a 2 door astra which is very unlikely

I was replying to @johnlair and your question should be to them.

 

[Italia]

Is this what you mean by unsourced?

The Times sometimes agrees not to identify people who provide information for our articles. Under our guidelines, anonymous sources should be used only for information that we think is newsworthy and credible, and that we are not able to report any other way.

Besides the reporter, at least one editor must know the identity of the source. Use of anonymous sources in any story must be approved by a high-ranking editor, usually a department head like the International editor or the Washington bureau chief, or their deputies.

More of the NYT's explanation here: How The Times Uses Anonymous Sources (Published 2018)

It is from Times of London
But yes, I would not think the journo would risk her rep with dodgy sources tbh

 

[Italia]

I was replying to @johnlair and your question should be to them.

@johnlair

 

[Moll]

It is from Times of London
But yes, I would not think the journo would risk her rep with dodgy sources tbh

Agreed - a reputable journalist would normally assure themselves that the source was genuine even if s/he agreed not to name them. That doesn't mean the source is right or has the only correct angle on the subject of course.

 

[Tortoise]

What do mean front seat down? - wouldn’t be able to unless it was a 2 door astra which is very unlikely

Most front car seats recline back into a lying position. Well all the cars I've owned anyway, and none have been two door.

It helps to get a Christmas tree inside, or to take long items through from the rear to the front by flattening all the seats, except the driver's seat of course..

 

[Cherwell]

The office perv used to be a vile but common hazard of working life and, hypocritically, papers like the Mail were the first and loudest in bemoaning the removal of the right to make women's life unpleasant. The #me too movement really upset the Mail.

If you look at British comedy from the 60s and 70s sexual harassment was a staple. My kids recently caught an old carry on films and pointed out people were chuckling at attempted rape and pedophilia. So in the not too distant past it was culturally accepted tho always unpleasant and wrong

I agree they are things in his past that are relevant but I understand, culturally, why nobody did anything. I do wonder how much derision the colleague that reported him for smacking her bottom got and how many other colleagues were put off reporting

Pedophilia means sexual abuse of prepubescent children, and it has never been "culturally accepted" in the UK! And certainly never depicted in a Carry On film.
.

 

[Newthoughts]

Pedophilia means sexual abuse of prepubescent children, and it has never been "culturally accepted" in the UK! And certainly never depicted in a Carry On film.
.

I think she was referring to the scene in carry on camping where an elderly and wrinkled Sid James and his equally elderly chum were trying to get off with what were supposed to be school girls. I suspect she didn't understand the distinction between statutory rape and pedophilia. Her exact comment was are they supposed to be at school? - yes. Is he supposed to be a paedophile then? Obviously she didn't know the correct legal jargon.

It was not uncommon in the past for certain papers to carry a countdown to 16th birthdays. Culturally that seemed to be ok. When in fact it wasn't

 

[Marantz4250b]

It was not uncommon in the past for certain papers to carry a countdown to 16th birthdays. Culturally that seemed to be ok. When in fact it wasn't

Since the law changed to raise the age to 18 for doing "*advertiser censored*" old copies of the Sun are actually child *advertiser censored* these days!

On a related note; The Godfather, technically speaking, is illegal. After Michael Corleone shoots the Police chief in the restaurant he flees to Sicily for a time. While there he meets a girl and gets married. The wedding night scene involves his wife doing a topless scene. The actress who played the part was 17 at the time.

 

[Nina2021]

I can respect your thoughts on that, although mine differ - I suspect that his relationship with his wife was carefully kept separate from any sexual violence (that he used other outlets for this, probably very frequently and in a very extreme way IMO). There may have been other aspects that his wife, maybe only in hindsight, would question now - for example, the frequency and duration of times he was not at home (possibly attributed to being "at work" in a confidential capacity that he wouldn't give many details about?). I may be wrong. I think maintaining separate identities in this regard may have been important to him.

Edited to add: His wife would have been somewhat vulnerable, however, especially when she first came over to the UK, being isolated from family, language, culture and likely reliant on him for a period of time. I think he would have loved that level of control. Control, but not necessarily abuse (for her).

If WC had shown who he really was/is there would have been no marriage or kids.
Maintaining a facade is crucial indeed when there's so much to lose.
He failed, and lost it all.

 

[mrjitty]

The office perv used to be a vile but common hazard of working life and, hypocritically, papers like the Mail were the first and loudest in bemoaning the removal of the right to make women's life unpleasant. The #me too movement really upset the Mail.

If you look at British comedy from the 60s and 70s sexual harassment was a staple. My kids recently caught an old carry on films and pointed out people were chuckling at attempted rape and pedophilia. So in the not too distant past it was culturally accepted tho always unpleasant and wrong

I agree they are things in his past that are relevant but I understand, culturally, why nobody did anything. I do wonder how much derision the colleague that reported him for smacking her bottom got and how many other colleagues were put off reporting

Oh absolutely - look at the Benny Hill show - sex pest stuff was comedy in those days

 

[Seattle1]

I was offered, and accepted, a lift from two police officers in their car in London. They were not known to me. Still here to tell the tale...
My point is that it's not unusual that SE could be talked into the car. It's down to what a person is taught about police, about getting into cars of people we don't know, personality styles, the list goes on. I know the charge reads that she was taken by force (I hope I have that right) but I would be interested to know what the various interpretations of that particular charge could be. Would deception cover it, or must it be physical force that brought her into the car?

Having lived in the States for a while (from UK), it's much easier not to take the statement such as "taken by force" so literal when reading the cited legal definition reported in MSM when in fact typically, kidnapping universally implies a victim such as SE did not willingly go to Hoads Wood with her killer.

And I'm all for updating the laws from common law verbiage to the 21st century!

Simplification of the Criminal Law: Kidnapping and Related Offences | Law Commission