Ireland Ireland - Sophie Toscan du Plantier, 39, murdered, County Cork, 23 Dec 1996

[Lady Shylock]

Oh yes agreed, there seems to be a lot of bizarre happenings.

I have a personal theory on MF but it wasn’t discussed on the podcast so I’m unsure if I’m allowed to speculate here, please let me know and I will delete if necessary. I’ve wondered whether
MF was perhaps having an affair with a police officer, she was happy to go along with them at the start of the investigation and then there was the wife of one policeman stating she would call him quite a lot, then she changes her story entirely. Perhaps her affair ended with the police officer and that prompted her to totally change her story. That could also explain why she would not reveal the identity of the person she was having the affair with, her husband knew there was an affair after awhile, why not just be honest about it. This is all just my speculative thoughts and not based on fact at all.

I agree with you … rumours still abound that it was a Member of the Gardaí who murdered her in fact.

MF’s husband was done for assault so I often wondered if he had anything to do with it & did she just implicate IB?

What I still cannot get comfortable with is the actual true reason that Sophie came to Schull that weekend. Her family mentioned she needed to have the heating in the house fixed, did the Police ever follow this up and see if she had dealt with an electrical contractor who might have been in the house and be a suspect as a result? Her family in early interviews did not admit that her marriage was more or less over to protect her obviously but even if the relationship was sour with Daniel, I cannot believe any husband/Son-in-law would not travel to Ireland to see his wife’s body. I’m also wondering if his call to Sophie was to check that she was at home having arranged a hit man. IMO a genuine hit man would use a rock rather than a firearm to throw off the suspicion of an arranged hit to make it look less ‘professional’. There is uncertainty also as to whether she was intending to return to France for Christmas. One friend said in interview that she wasn’t due back until New Year… is there another man the picture here that has literally gotten away with murder? Her husband said she intended to fly back on the Monday (day after the murder) but Airport CCTV shoes that she had brought an awful lot of luggage for a 3 day stay!

 

[Lady Shylock]

I

Well I’ve binged both the sky 5 part and the Netflix documentaries today. I already knew about this case but wow, never have I ever gone from 100% guilty to not sure in the slightest, and then back and forth again and again.
Wondering if there is a definitive answer as to whether bailey was reporting details that were unknown to the public and if so who he says it came from.
MF is such a strange part of it too. She’s got the sighting in her shop AND the random sighting in the middle of nowhere at silly o’clock. Why is the man she was having an affair with impossible to name when her husband knows who it is because she said they had arguments in the past about the man.
And with all the questions this case leaves you with, Sophie’s family only have eyes for Bailey.
If he is guilty then surely Jules holds the answers, and she is free of him now it seems.

I am the same as you! I’m swinging like a pendulum. My fear is that because the Gardaí and grieving family are so convinced of IB’s guilt, the actual killer has gotten away with it. The male DNA found on Sophie’s boots was never identified which raises suspicion. I read the DPPs case, some ‘quotes’ from witnesses were not believed as it was suggested that the Police were putting words in their mouth for favours. The only way IB will ever be exonerated is if the true killer is found.

 

[Zazie]

There's some very rich personal background plus details of the pathologist's report, in a chapter of The Things I've Seen: Nine Lives of a Foreign Correspondent by Lara Marlowe, that I've not read anywhere else and which may be of interest.

I was able to read the full chapter on Google Books rather than the usual snippets so hopefully this link will work for you too.

I stumbled upon this when was searching for info on the Ungerers - the couple Sophie visited, after panicking at Three Castle Head the day before her death. I hadn't appreciated Yvonne's husband was Tomi Ungerer, the well-known French artist/illustrator who died in 2019.

 

[Zazie]

Just an aside re the dramatic story of Sophie's sighting of the White Lady at Three Castle Head on 22 Dec and supposed premonition of her own death...

I have only ever seen this story told by Ian Bailey who says YU told him about it.

Yet Sophie's husband Daniel, who spoke to her that evening, doesn't mention it in his statement about their last phone call, saying Sophie spoke about...

"..the visit she had made during the day to Mr and Mrs Ungerer, who live a few kilometres from her house. She got to know Mr Ungerer last April and had been won over by his personality and his talents as a cartoonist. I think that he is the author of cartoons for children, but with a style more suited to adults. According to what she told me, she had returned home about 9.30pm, I suppose the Ungerers had kept her for dinner. If not, she would have gone to a pub for a sandwich or would have had a piece of cheese and a glass of red wine. Clearly, she was very happy with this visit and had been very ‘taken’ by Mr Ungerer, to such an extent that they formed a work project together."
Sophie Toscan du Plantier's heartbroken husband on last words with murdered wife

I'm not interested in any supernatural aspect, but if the story was true it would indicate Sophie didn't mention the startling event that evening to her husband, which might be revealing of the state of their relationship.

Or, is this story entirely IB's invention? Yet if YU is still living, you would think she would correct the record.

 

[dotr]

Private eyes offer support to Sophie’s family after media coverage
''Private investigators and detectives across the world have contacted the family of Sophie Toscan du Plantier offering to help solve the murder of the French woman in West Cork 25 years ago.

The recent “relentless” media coverage of the murder following the release of documentaries on Netflix and Sky led to this latest development, victim’s uncle told the Sunday Independent.

Jean-Pierre Gazeau also backed calls for a fresh garda investigation into the killing.''

 

[fr brown]

There's some very rich personal background plus details of the pathologist's report, in a chapter of The Things I've Seen: Nine Lives of a Foreign Correspondent by Lara Marlowe, that I've not read anywhere else and which may be of interest.

I was able to read the full chapter on Google Books rather than the usual snippets so hopefully this link will work for you too.

I stumbled upon this when was searching for info on the Ungerers - the couple Sophie visited, after panicking at Three Castle Head the day before her death. I hadn't appreciated Yvonne's husband was Tomi Ungerer, the well-known French artist/illustrator who died in 2019.

Not viewable anymore. Do you remember anything of particular interest from the pathologist's report?

 

[Anxala]

Not viewable anymore. Do you remember anything of particular interest from the pathologist's report?

It is viewable. I don't know what the etiquette is as regards quoting passages from copyrighted material here? The entire (Sophie) chapter is a really interesting read on numerous levels and, as @Zazie above said, very much new info also to me.

If you still can't access it and it's confirmed by a mod that it's ok to post extracts, I'll do so. See if this works -

The Things I've Seen

 

[fr brown]

It is viewable. I don't know what the etiquette is as regards quoting passages from copyrighted material here? The entire (Sophie) chapter is a really interesting read on numerous levels and, as @Zazie above said, very much new info also to me.

If you still can't access it and it's confirmed by a mod that it's ok to post extracts, I'll do so. See if this works -

The Things I've Seen

I can view when I use my laptop. Thanks!

At some point I'd like to know what the DNA testing of the circular blobs of blood revealed. They might have been left by someone bleeding (from the forehead?) over Sophie's body. Let's hope there's some left.

 

[missgreenbanks]

Assuming it wasn't Bailey, does it have to be a man? Maybe Sophie was faced with a somewhat bigger woman, one armed with an axe. A woman could lift a 55 lb block--not over her head maybe, but a foot or two off the ground, enough to drop on the head of someone lying on the ground.

Actually this is something that I have thought of too, it wouldn’t surprise me that a man and a woman were both involved in this. The horrific nature of the attack on her face has led me to think it may have been done by a woman - an older, angry woman jealous of Sophie’s beauty.

 

[missgreenbanks]

The Richardsons' house wasn't occupied. Nick Foster (Murder at Roaringwater) thinks that Sophie went out the back door to talk to Bailey, and was attacked. (Some of her blood is there.) It might have been easy to block her route up to the other house. That would have left only one way to go.

I understand there is some DNA, but it may be minute, degraded or mixed.

I just finished Nick Foster’s book and thought it was very good, lots of stuff in it that I hadn’t heard before too.
Now I think whatever happened that night took place down by the gate. Sophie got up out of bed on hearing something and went down to investigate (taking a knife or axe as defence) or someone came to the door she refused them entry and said she’d walk them back down to the gate and that’s when things took a turn.

 

[fr brown]

Actually this is something that I have thought of too, it wouldn’t surprise me that a man and a woman were both involved in this. The horrific nature of the attack on her face has led me to think it may have been done by a woman - an older, angry woman jealous of Sophie’s beauty.

The Guards actually investigated this possibility.

I wondered about a woman being the attacker because Sophie, who reportedly was petite, got pretty far away before she was overwhelmed. But I think that can be explained by a combination of Sophie brushing back her attacker with the missing axe, hesitation on the attacker's part to take the next step, and perhaps attacker intoxication.

Jules' statement about the night before and the morning after convinces me that IB is that attacker. (People in the US have been convicted with less. If DNA and fingerprints were requirements for conviction we'd rarely be able to convict a spouse.) The DPP felt that her statement was illegally obtained, though, and couldn't be used in court.

I think it would be worthwhile to see if he can be connected to crimes in England. (Deciding in the prime of life to become a mediocre pub poet in the back of beyond seems like an unusual choice.) I suppose this investigation was done long ago....

 

[missgreenbanks]

Fr Brown -I didn’t know the guards had investigated the possibility of it being a woman, what was their thinking about it?
I think Sophie willingly went out there and if a woman was present that may have given her a false sense of security.
I don’t think it was a woman on her own but possibly a man and woman together.

 

[Anxala]

I think it would be worthwhile to see if he can be connected to crimes in England. (Deciding in the prime of life to become a mediocre pub poet in the back of beyond seems like an unusual choice.) I suppose this investigation was done long ago....

I'd find it very hard to believe that his background wouldn't have been checked. In any case, if there was anything significant to uncover, it would surely be known by now, particularly with SM who'd be all over it, so I think it's reasonable to assume that he doesn't have a criminal history.

I don't find anything that unusual about someone upping sticks and starting over. People do it all the time. And to be fair, he didn't decide to become a mediocre pub poet. His marriage was over and it just sounds like he wanted a complete change -

He was married to a fellow journalist, Sara Limbrick, for five years. When the marriage failed, Mr Bailey tired of life in the UK and decided to start afresh in Ireland. He moved in 1991 to west Cork where he undertook odd jobs. He settled permanently in Schull in west Cork after a brief spell in Wicklow.

Ian Bailey: Journalist, poet, gardener and murder suspect - remarkable life of man who became pariah

 

[fr brown]

I'd find it very hard to believe that his background wouldn't have been checked. If there was anything significant to uncover, it would surely be known by now, particularly with SM, so I think it's reasonable to assume that he doesn't have a criminal history or at least one worthy of any note.

I don't find anything that unusual about someone upping sticks and starting over. People do it all the time. And to be fair, he didn't decide to become a mediocre pub poet. His marriage was over and it just sounds like he wanted a complete change -


Ian Bailey: Journalist, poet, gardener and murder suspect - remarkable life of man who became pariah

I'm talking about cold cases not criminal history.

 

[fr brown]

Fr Brown -I didn’t know the guards had investigated the possibility of it being a woman, what was their thinking about it?
I think Sophie willingly went out there and if a woman was present that may have given her a false sense of security.
I don’t think it was a woman on her own but possibly a man and woman together.

I read something about the possibility of a property line dispute. It was investigated and dismissed.

 

[Electric Sheep]

Holy cow. Ian's first wife's son raped and murdered his 93 year old great grandmother.

Teenager who raped and murdered his great-grandmother sent for tests

 

[Anxala]

I'm talking about cold cases not criminal history.

Oh. Ok. Can I ask why you might wonder about this?

And a link to @Electric Sheep 's post -

Teenager who raped and murdered his great-grandmother sent for tests

Although that has nothing at all to do with Ian Bailey since it happened in 2003 and he and Limbrick parted (based on his move to West Cork in 1991) in late '80s, early '90s.

 

[fr brown]

Oh. Ok. Can I ask why you might wonder about this?....

Common sense. Due diligence.

And please don't try to conflate my posts with anyone else's. It's dishonest.

 

[Anxala]

Common sense. Due diligence.

And please don't try to conflate my posts with anyone else's. It's dishonest.

Whoa. I was doing nothing of the sort and I really don't appreciate your response.

I added the 'teenager' link to my post because at the time I posted, there was no link in @Electric Sheep 's post, just the 'Holy Cow' one line sentence. I was of course intrigued by it and googled it and then added the link for general info.

The link was added by that poster to that post after I'd posted it.

My response to it was directed at electric sheep's post, not you.

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

There's some very rich personal background plus details of the pathologist's report, in a chapter of The Things I've Seen: Nine Lives of a Foreign Correspondent by Lara Marlowe, that I've not read anywhere else and which may be of interest.

I was able to read the full chapter on Google Books rather than the usual snippets so hopefully this link will work for you too.

I stumbled upon this when was searching for info on the Ungerers - the couple Sophie visited, after panicking at Three Castle Head the day before her death. I hadn't appreciated Yvonne's husband was Tomi Ungerer, the well-known French artist/illustrator who died in 2019.

Thanks for that link. Hadn't come across it before.