GUILTY OH Pike Co., 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #63

[Covert Operative]

Yes, he may get a lot of pressure, but, JMO, if his rights are restored to talk to his family, they'll be restricted. Regardless, he will probably get pressure.

With all the evidence at hand, JMO, the possibility of a hung jury is near zero. Much of the evidence shows conspiracy and includes all 4 Wagner defendants from the forged custody documents to hiding weapons and evidence. The massive body of evidence also points to the involvement of multiple killers in the homes that night.

I recall Judge Deering thoroughly informed Jake of his rights during the hearing when he confessed. This case is a top priority in Ohio, I don't think anyone is going to mess it up.

ETA: Given what we know of all the evidence, there's no way any jury will believe a defense attorney saying that Jake was the only one who committed the murders. That horse is already out of the barn. True, it is the oldest defense argument in history - "my client didn't pull the trigger, the other guy did."

I did not know his rights to talk to his family were ever taken away. (other than the 3 W's and RN) I am not sure a hung jury is a zero chance for all of them. A juror may be willing to find one of them guilty of many things but not of aggravated murder. To me if would be zero but not everyone thinks the same.

 

[Cool Cats]

JW may decided not to testify. Nobody thought he would confess so for him to change his mind and not testify would not be that shocking. He has a long time to think about it before trials. The family that he does talk to may put pressure on him not to testify. He may lose his new found religion that he said prompted his confession.

They have the evidence, his confession etc. they can use, but it probably would help the defense if he did not testify. It would be very powerful to a jury to see him on the stand testifying against his family. Defense may say if he changes his mind that is because he is a liar and killed them all himself or he is crazy.

If there was a hung jury it may make the state consider negotiating a somewhat better plea deal. My guess is they have already presented some plea deals that have not be accepted. Some of them may get conspiracy deals which still would probably not be very good, as they should not be.

JW lawyers did say they counseled him and felt very sure he understood everything involved so it may be doubtful they will find an error on the part of the state but I am sure they will try to find anything.

Jake will testify just like Rita will testify. If Rita refused to testify in a Wagner trial when asked to, her plea deal would be revoked. If Jake refused to testify his plea deal would be revoked and he would be where he is afraid to be - facing the DP.

As for plea deals....

The families seem to get left out of the equation. This whole thing is the prosecution working to bring the 3 family's justice.

The families want the Wagners held accountable for murdering their 8 family members. The families will never accept any plea deal that does not include a guilty plea to the 8 murders.

They haven't been sitting in court for 2 years and 8 months looking for justice only to then back down and agree to a plea deal that doesn't include a full guilty plea to the 8 murders.

Canepa was clear about this - the families had to approve Jake's plea deal.

They were asked how they felt about it and were asked what did they want to do? If the 3 families had said they want the DP for Jake he would not have gotton that plea deal that took the DP off the table.

This is the power the families have, to choose life or death for Jake. Jake took life from them yet they are sparing his life, in fact sparing all the Wagner's lives.

Would you? Would you spare the Wagner's lives?

... 2 Cents ...

 

[Covert Operative]

Yes, he may get a lot of pressure, but, JMO, if his rights are restored to talk to his family, they'll be restricted. Regardless, he will probably get pressure.

With all the evidence at hand, JMO, the possibility of a hung jury is near zero. Much of the evidence shows conspiracy and includes all 4 Wagner defendants from the forged custody documents to hiding weapons and evidence. The massive body of evidence also points to the involvement of multiple killers in the homes that night.

I recall Judge Deering thoroughly informed Jake of his rights during the hearing when he confessed. This case is a top priority in Ohio, I don't think anyone is going to mess it up.

ETA: Given what we know of all the evidence, there's no way any jury will believe a defense attorney saying that Jake was the only one who committed the murders. That horse is already out of the barn. True, it is the oldest defense argument in history - "my client didn't pull the trigger, the other guy did."

I did not know his rights to talk to his family were ever taken away. (other than the 3 W's and RN) I am not sure a hung jury is a zero chance for all of them. A juror may be willing to find one of them guilty of many things but not of aggravated murder. To me if would be zero but not everyone thinks the same.

Jake will testify just like Rita will testify. If Rita refused to testify in a Wagner trial when asked to, her plea deal would be revoked. If Jake refused to testify his plea deal would be revoked and he would be where he is afraid to be - facing the DP.

As for plea deals....

The families seem to get left out of the equation. This whole thing is the prosecution working to bring the 3 family's justice.

The families want the Wagners held accountable for murdering their 8 family members. The families will never accept any plea deal that does not include a guilty plea to the 8 murders.

They haven't been sitting in court for 2 years and 8 months looking for justice only to then back down and agree to a plea deal that doesn't include a full guilty plea to the 8 murders.

Canepa was clear about this - the families had to approve Jake's plea deal.

They were asked how they felt about it and were asked what did they want to do? If the 3 families had said they want the DP for Jake he would not have gotton that plea deal that took the DP off the table.

This is the power the families have, to choose life or death for Jake. Jake took life from them yet they are sparing his life, in fact sparing all the Wagner's lives.

Would you? Would you spare the Wagner's lives?

... 2 Cents ...

Jake is not Rita. He is gonna be in prison no matter what, she will not. The families are not left out of any equation, but they will also listen to the state and what they recommend and make a decision. They did decide to spare the W's lives in the plea deal it seems and they have no idea if the other 3 will be convicted or make a plea deal.

A conspiracy plea deal with a very long prison term for one or them may not be out of the question.

 

[Becky Starkey]

Jake will testify just like Rita will testify. If Rita refused to testify in a Wagner trial when asked to, her plea deal would be revoked. If Jake refused to testify his plea deal would be revoked and he would be where he is afraid to be - facing the DP.

As for plea deals....

The families seem to get left out of the equation. This whole thing is the prosecution working to bring the 3 family's justice.

The families want the Wagners held accountable for murdering their 8 family members. The families will never accept any plea deal that does not include a guilty plea to the 8 murders.

They haven't been sitting in court for 2 years and 8 months looking for justice only to then back down and agree to a plea deal that doesn't include a full guilty plea to the 8 murders.

Canepa was clear about this - the families had to approve Jake's plea deal.

They were asked how they felt about it and were asked what did they want to do? If the 3 families had said they want the DP for Jake he would not have gotton that plea deal that took the DP off the table.

This is the power the families have, to choose life or death for Jake. Jake took life from them yet they are sparing his life, in fact sparing all the Wagner's lives.

Would you? Would you spare the Wagner's lives?

... 2 Cents ...

Yes, because I don't believe the government has the right to play God. And the death penalty is much more expensive than life. I'd rather they live out their already miserable lives in more misery as well.

 

[Cool Cats]

I did not know his rights to talk to his family were ever taken away. (other than the 3 W's and RN) I am not sure a hung jury is a zero chance for all of them. A juror may be willing to find one of them guilty of many things but not of aggravated murder. To me if would be zero but not everyone thinks the same.

Jake is not Rita. He is gonna be in prison no matter what, she will not. The families are not left out of any equation, but they will also listen to the state and what they recommend and make a decision. They did decide to spare the W's lives in the plea deal it seems and they have no idea if the other 3 will be convicted or make a plea deal.

A conspiracy plea deal with a very long prison term for one or them may not be out of the question.

If they are guilty of Conspiracy then they are guilty of the 8 murders. Goes hand in hand.

The Conspiracy is that they planned the murders. DeWine:
"The Wagners conspired together to kill the 8 victims."

The whole Conspiracy is all about getting away with the murders. The other charges are part of the Conspiracy also:

Aggravated burglary, unlawful possession of a dangerous ordinance, multiple counts of tampering with evidence, forgery, unauthorized use of property, interception of wire and oral communications, obstruction of justice, engaging in a pattern of corrupt activity.

 

[Covert Operative]

If they are guilty of Conspiracy then they are guilty of the 8 murders. Goes hand in hand.

The Conspiracy is that they planned the murders. DeWine:
"The Wagners conspired together to kill the 8 victims."

The whole Conspiracy is all about getting away with the murders. The other charges are part of the Conspiracy also:

Aggravated burglary, unlawful possession of a dangerous ordinance, multiple counts of tampering with evidence, forgery, unauthorized use of property, interception of wire and oral communications, obstruction of justice, engaging in a pattern of corrupt activity.

As I said previously, one of them may get a conspiracy plea deal and get a somewhat lesser charge than they would for aggravated murder.

 

[ohioexpat63]

As I said previously, one of them may get a conspiracy plea deal and get a somewhat lesser charge than they would for aggravated murder.

Theoretically, it is possible the state could offer additional plea/pleas. Personally, I don't find it plausible.

I would have to ask, why? What does the state have to gain by offering a lesser charge, after Jake produce hard physical evidence, and most likely produced the remaing pieces of the puzzle? These folks aren't sitting in jail, without bail, because they were wrongfully charged. Jake took away any doubt I had as far as guilt or innocent.

Do you have someone in mind that may get the lesser offer?

Just my OPINION only.

 

[Covert Operative]

Theoretically, it is possible the state could offer additional plea/pleas. Personally, I don't find it plausible.

I would have to ask, why? What does the state have to gain by offering a lesser charge, after Jake produce hard physical evidence, and most likely produced the remaing pieces of the puzzle? These folks aren't sitting in jail, without bail, because they were wrongfully charged. Jake took away any doubt I had as far as guilt or innocent.

Do you have someone in mind that may get the lesser offer?

Just my OPINION only.

They do not have to go through a trial if they can come to an agreement on a plea deal. They could have the possibility of a hung jury and then probably make a plea deal anyway. They could have the possibly of a not guilty verdict which is highly doubtful to me. I would imagine that any prosecution is always a little worried of how the case could turn out no matter how much evidence they have. JW could have possibly helped one of them in his confession.

If JW said one of them did not participate would you also believe that, would that take away any doubt that they did for you? It would not for me because I would find it hard to believe him 100 percent.

 

[Dudly]

One thing everyone needs to keep in mind as these cases progress. We, the public, never know how things will go in a trial jury. Remember how people thought the O.J. and Casey Anthony trials would come out.
The Prosecution can add, drop, or change charges. The Defense can offer plea deals that may be accepted for various reasons. The jury can be unpredictable...

 

[Berrybell]

They do not have to go through a trial if they can come to an agreement on a plea deal. They could have the possibility of a hung jury and then probably make a plea deal anyway. They could have the possibly of a not guilty verdict which is highly doubtful to me. I would imagine that any prosecution is always a little worried of how the case could turn out no matter how much evidence they have. JW could have possibly helped one of them in his confession.

If JW said one of them did not participate would you also believe that, would that take away any doubt that they did for you? It would not for me because I would find it hard to believe him 100 percent.

I do understand what you are saying, JW cannot be believed 100% he has proven himself a liar in the past. We can pick and choose when and what we believe he said is the truth and what was lie. However, the defense has to plan and hope for at least one juror to not believe JW 100% that is what they are paid to do.

Do I think they are all guilty? Yes. Do I think all four Wag's pulled a trigger? I honestly don't know, because that has not been said in any of the hearings we have been privilege too and we don't know what JW told the prosecution. Yes, conspiracy to commit murder often carries the same sentence as actually pulling the trigger, BW,GW & AW have nothing to loose by going to court. Debating the outcome and looking at our imperfect judicial systems does not mean anyone has doubts or thinks they are innocent. This what we do here, discuss, dissect, and look at all possibilities.

 

[Berrybell]

One thing everyone needs to keep in mind as these cases progress. We, the public, never know how things will go in a trial jury. Remember how people thought the O.J. and Casey Anthony trials would come out.
The Prosecution can add, drop, or change charges. The Defense can offer plea deals that may be accepted for various reasons. The jury can be unpredictable...

Thank you Dudley, this is a great reminder.

 

[Betty P]

One thing everyone needs to keep in mind as these cases progress. We, the public, never know how things will go in a trial jury. Remember how people thought the O.J. and Casey Anthony trials would come out.
The Prosecution can add, drop, or change charges. The Defense can offer plea deals that may be accepted for various reasons. The jury can be unpredictable...

Thanks, Dudly. I think it's also important both sides be heard and provide evidence.

If public forums on social media spend the next several months or years posting that, no matter how good the state's case is, the Wagners will still be found innocent, that's not objective.

As I've mentioned many times before, defense attorneys watch what is posted here. In more than one case, I've seen arguments posted here at Websleuths repeated, word for word, by defense attorneys during a trial.

Arguing both sides of a case is only fair, but people should back up their arguments with some evidence or sound reasoning.

Using the OJ Simpson trial as an example, it was widely believed that the trial went off track because it wasn't properly managed by the judge. There also wasn't an accomplice who pleaded guilty and revealed a large cache of key evidence from the crime.

So far, we're seeing good pre-trial management by Judge Deering. He's allowing a lot of leeway to protect the defendants' rights (and to avoid appeals). At the same time, he's also being fair by holding everyone to a high standard in the process. So far, he doesn't seem like a judge who will let the defense attorneys get away with making a lot of wild and unfounded claims.

We should also give credit to citizens of Pike County for being able to produce an unbiased jury pool that will look at the cases fairly. For several years, their community was traumatized by this horrible massacre. I doubt they or the courts are going to produce a juror who will look at the mountain of evidence against the Wagners and claim they're not guilty, just because. We should also remember that it's very likely some of these trials will be held with jurors who come from different areas of Ohio.

As for appeals, that's a given. These are death penalty cases, so its normal to assume there will be appeals for years to come. They'll probably be based on technicalities, that's typical. Sure, we can argue in a million ways that the prosecution or judge will screw up somehow, but during a pre-trial period that's been ongoing for nearly 3 years, that hasn't happened. Maybe it would be helpful for people who feel that way to provide an example from this case for why that might happen.

I'm offering a few suggestions for discussing the downsides to this case as an alternative to simply repeating an opinion that the Wagners will be acquitted without offering reasons based on evidence and procedure in this case.

 

[Betty P]

Yes, because I don't believe the government has the right to play God. And the death penalty is much more expensive than life. I'd rather they live out their already miserable lives in more misery as well.

We're in agreement on that. I would much rather they get LWOP. I prefer they follow Jake's example, make a plea deal with the state and face LWOP.

 

[Covert Operative]

I do understand what you are saying, JW cannot be believed 100% he has proven himself a liar in the past. We can pick and choose when and what we believe he said is the truth and what was lie. However, the defense has to plan and hope for at least one juror to not believe JW 100% that is what they are paid to do.

Do I think they are all guilty? Yes. Do I think all four Wag's pulled a trigger? I honestly don't know, because that has not been said in any of the hearings we have been privilege too and we don't know what JW told the prosecution. Yes, conspiracy to commit murder often carries the same sentence as actually pulling the trigger, BW,GW & AW have nothing to loose by going to court. Debating the outcome and looking at our imperfect judicial systems does not mean anyone has doubts or thinks they are innocent. This what we do here, discuss, dissect, and look at all possibilities.

I agree with you. Thank you for your sensible post.

 

[Covert Operative]

One thing everyone needs to keep in mind as these cases progress. We, the public, never know how things will go in a trial jury. Remember how people thought the O.J. and Casey Anthony trials would come out.
The Prosecution can add, drop, or change charges. The Defense can offer plea deals that may be accepted for various reasons. The jury can be unpredictable...

This post is so true. Sometimes people need to look at the picture of how the justice system actually can work instead of just their picture. I have not seen anyone say that the W's would be acquitted yet I keep seeing it repeated that is being said.

 

[Betty P]

So, let's assume GW3 is the first case to go to trial.

What mistakes could be made in the voir dire process that would result in having a juror empaneled who ignores evidence and votes for acquittal? Which actions will the prosecution take to prevent this happening?

 

[Berrybell]

Thanks, Dudly. I think it's also important both sides be heard and provide evidence.

If public forums on social media spend the next several months or years posting that, no matter how good the state's case is, the Wagners will still be found innocent, that's not objective.

As I've mentioned many times before, defense attorneys watch what is posted here. In more than one case, I've seen arguments posted here at Websleuths repeated, word for word, by defense attorneys during a trial.

Arguing both sides of a case is only fair, but people should back up their arguments with some evidence or sound reasoning.

Using the OJ Simpson trial as an example, it was widely believed that the trial went off track because it wasn't properly managed by the judge. There also wasn't an accomplice who pleaded guilty and revealed a large cache of key evidence from the crime.

So far, we're seeing good pre-trial management by Judge Deering. He's allowing a lot of leeway to protect the defendants' rights (and to avoid appeals). At the same time, he's also being fair by holding everyone to a high standard in the process. So far, he doesn't seem like a judge who will let the defense attorneys get away with making a lot of wild and unfounded claims.

We should also give credit to citizens of Pike County for being able to produce an unbiased jury pool that will look at the cases fairly. For several years, their community was traumatized by this horrible massacre. I doubt they or the courts are going to produce a juror who will look at the mountain of evidence against the Wagners and claim they're not guilty, just because. We should also remember that it's very likely some of these trials will be held with jurors who come from different areas of Ohio.

As for appeals, that's a given. These are death penalty cases, so its normal to assume there will be appeals for years to come. They'll probably be based on technicalities, that's typical. Sure, we can argue in a million ways that the prosecution or judge will screw up somehow, but during a pre-trial period that's been ongoing for nearly 3 years, that hasn't happened. Maybe it would be helpful for people who feel that way to provide an example from this case for why that might happen.

I'm offering a few suggestions for discussing the downsides to this case as an alternative to simply repeating an opinion that the Wagners will be acquitted without offering reasons based on evidence and procedure in this case.

Betty, with all due respect it is hard to give an exact example when we the general public have not seen all the evidence or heard JW confession. I think Dudley did give two very good examples of how the cases and jury can go wrong. I feel it is important that we keep an open mind and remember not everything is cut and dry.

I personally, hope they go to trial. They commented these horrible slaughters for JW, I want them to set there and watch him betray them, just like he betrayed HR and their sweet little daughter.

 

[Covert Operative]

So, let's assume GW3 is the first case to go to trial.

What mistakes could be made in the voir dire process that would result in having a juror empaneled who ignores evidence and votes for acquittal? Which actions will the prosecution take to prevent this happening?

You are the one that keeps saying acquittal. I have not seen anyone else say they would be acquitted.

 

[Betty P]

Betty, with all due respect it is hard to give an exact example when we the general public have not seen all the evidence or heard JW confession. I think Dudley did give two very good examples of how the cases and jury can go wrong. I feel it is important that we keep an open mind and remember not everything is cut and dry.

I personally, hope they go to trial. They commented these horrible slaughters for JW, I want them to set there and watch him betray them, just like he betrayed HR and their sweet little daughter.

I agree things can and do go wrong in trials. We've seen it before. But in later analysis, there are often reasons why that happens. If we're going to discuss the possibility of these trials being derailed, shouldn't we analyze why that might or might not happen?

 

[Betty P]

You are the one that keeps saying acquittal. I have not seen anyone else say they would be acquitted.

What do you think are the other scenarios? How might they happen? How can they be avoided?

We have the benefit of a long, drawn out pre-trial process and, thanks to hard work of members here, a fair knowledge of some of the evidence against the defendants. Might as well discuss those things.