GUILTY UK - Bernadette Walker, 17, left parent's car, Peterborough, 21 July 2020 *Arrests* #5

[dunkley]

Bernadette had told friends online.
Bernadette sent messages to her mum.
Sarah messaged Bernadette on 17th to say she was taking Scott into the police station to report the allegations.
Sarah told Scott's step-mother JW that she had made allegations, and Bernadette had told JW it was the truth.
Sarah and Scott self-reported to police on 22nd July, saying the allegations were false.
Sarah's boyfriend knew Bernadette had made allegations because he knew Sarah was angry about it.
Scott told officers before his arrest that two of Bernadette's brothers were aware of her allegations.
One of the allegations was to do with cameras Scott had set up to record Bernadette. He didn't deny it in court, so they must have had proof he couldn't refute.
Police also saw him deleting things from his phone he admitted he didn't want anyone to see.

With the alleged victim, a minor, disappeared since she made the allegations, and her parents admissions that allegations were made, I'd say police had grounds to make an arrest on suspicion of sexual assault.

It's a shame whoever made the charging decisions didn't pursue the charges, based on all of the above, as well as Bernadette's diary, the parents admitting they used her phone because they didn't want social services to investigate, and based on the motive for murder.

moo

Sadly, Tortoise, none of that amounts to evidence. It is all hearsay, albeit fairly consistent and damning.
Certainly enough for the Suspicion.
Nothing that emanated from a mobile phone - particularly given the circumstances of *this* case - could be given credence.
The general rule of thumb/evidence is that unless whoever is making the witness statement can say, "I saw", or "I heard", or "I felt (in a physical sense)" it is hearsay.
There is no formal complaint or statement from the aggrieved - ie Bernadette. And, sadly, nothing to prove - or DISPROVE - that it happened.

It's damned frustrating.

Totally MOO

 

[Ruthbullock]

I can’t get over the passwords lie- she was 17, who asks their 17 year old for access to all their SM accounts????? Yet doesn’t notice they have sold the house Xbox and has to be informed by the brother. Wasn’t ScW also on the same college course and would have known the surnames of some of these friends, and certainly been in the same group chat (why did he not answer on the phone call). IMO SW is the coercive one- if someone asked me questions that only my partner would know the answers to, I would just say hang on a minute he can tell you himself.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Double post DBM

 

[worth2]

That would be helpful to me as couldn't hear most of it

Will try later on tonight!

 

[Tortoise]

Sadly, Tortoise, none of that amounts to evidence. It is all hearsay, albeit fairly consistent and damning.
Certainly enough for the Suspicion.
Nothing that emanated from a mobile phone - particularly given the circumstances of *this* case - could be given credence.
The general rule of thumb/evidence is that unless whoever is making the witness statement can say, "I saw", or "I heard", or "I felt (in a physical sense)" it is hearsay.
There is no formal complaint or statement from the aggrieved - ie Bernadette. And, sadly, nothing to prove - or DISPROVE - that it happened.

It's damned frustrating.

Totally MOO

I'm not certain but I don't think so.

look at this case for example -

"A lodger who killed a 13-year-old girl to stop her from exposing him as a sex abuser has been found guilty of her rape and murder.

Stephen Nicholson, 25, stabbed Lucy McHugh in a "vicious" attack near Southampton Outdoor Sports Centre.

He first raped Lucy, then aged 12, while living at her home, and abused her again before her death last July.

Jurors at Winchester Crown Court found him guilty of three charges of raping Lucy.

[...]

Two of Lucy's schools contacted Southampton City Council's social services after reports from pupils, including a student at Redbridge Community School who said Lucy had told them she was "having sex" with someone called "Stephen".

Social services later ruled there was "nothing to substantiate" that, jurors heard.

Ms White was visited but was "unconcerned" and was later "confrontational and angry" over the referral, a teacher told the trial."

Lucy McHugh: Stephen Nicholson guilty of murder and rape
-----------------

"Lucy had tried to tell her mother about her relationship with Nicholson, a father-of-one, but she was dismissed and told to 'get back to her fantasy land.'

In harrowing diary entries, Lucy described how Nicholson took her virginity after the pair played a video game together at her home, and detailed how she locked herself in the bathroom to avoid having sex with him. "

Tattoo artist, 25, is found GUILTY of raping and murdering schoolgirl Lucy McHugh | Daily Mail Online

---------------------

Exceptions to the hearsay rule for unavailable witnesses

The first category of exceptions to the hearsay rule concerns specific circumstances where the prosecution or defence have the witness’s statement in written or recorded form, but are unable to get the original witness to court.

Section 116 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 permits a judge to allow hearsay evidence only where:

a) the evidence would have been admissible if given by the witness at trial (i.e. an account which is relevant to what it is being used to prove and would have been permitted if the witness was available); and

b) the person who made the statement is identified to the court’s satisfaction (i.e. an anonymous statement would not be permitted); and

c) any one of the following 5 five reasons for the witness being unavailable is satisfied:

1) the witness is dead;

[...]

4) the witness cannot be found, although such steps as it is reasonably practicable to take to find them have been taken;

Hearsay — Defence-Barrister.co.uk

 

[RusselSprout]

I can’t get over the passwords lie- she was 17, who asks their 17 year old for access to all their SM accounts????? Yet doesn’t notice they have sold the house Xbox and has to be informed by the brother. Wasn’t ScW also on the same college course and would have known the surnames of some of these friends, and certainly been in the same group chat (why did he not answer on the phone call). IMO SW is the coercive one- if someone asked me questions that only my partner would know the answers to, I would just say hang on a minute he can tell you himself.

It really seemed to me they were trying to make the police not go visit Luke. Possibly because B had told him about the SA?
And then really tried to divert the police to, was it a guy shes spoke to on tiktok, was it warren? That seemed like total diversion to me (and nonsense) and they really didn't want the police speaking to Luke. MOO

 

[Ruthbullock]

Can anyone remember who were the witness friends in court- Luke, Warren or Chloe- or all 3? Thanks

 

[KarenUK]

I'm not certain but I don't think so.

look at this case for example -

"A lodger who killed a 13-year-old girl to stop her from exposing him as a sex abuser has been found guilty of her rape and murder.

Stephen Nicholson, 25, stabbed Lucy McHugh in a "vicious" attack near Southampton Outdoor Sports Centre.

He first raped Lucy, then aged 12, while living at her home, and abused her again before her death last July.

Jurors at Winchester Crown Court found him guilty of three charges of raping Lucy.

[...]

Two of Lucy's schools contacted Southampton City Council's social services after reports from pupils, including a student at Redbridge Community School who said Lucy had told them she was "having sex" with someone called "Stephen".

Social services later ruled there was "nothing to substantiate" that, jurors heard.

Ms White was visited but was "unconcerned" and was later "confrontational and angry" over the referral, a teacher told the trial."

Lucy McHugh: Stephen Nicholson guilty of murder and rape
-----------------

"Lucy had tried to tell her mother about her relationship with Nicholson, a father-of-one, but she was dismissed and told to 'get back to her fantasy land.'

In harrowing diary entries, Lucy described how Nicholson took her virginity after the pair played a video game together at her home, and detailed how she locked herself in the bathroom to avoid having sex with him. "

Tattoo artist, 25, is found GUILTY of raping and murdering schoolgirl Lucy McHugh | Daily Mail Online

---------------------

Exceptions to the hearsay rule for unavailable witnesses

The first category of exceptions to the hearsay rule concerns specific circumstances where the prosecution or defence have the witness’s statement in written or recorded form, but are unable to get the original witness to court.

Section 116 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 permits a judge to allow hearsay evidence only where:

a) the evidence would have been admissible if given by the witness at trial (i.e. an account which is relevant to what it is being used to prove and would have been permitted if the witness was available); and

b) the person who made the statement is identified to the court’s satisfaction (i.e. an anonymous statement would not be permitted); and

c) any one of the following 5 five reasons for the witness being unavailable is satisfied:

1) the witness is dead;

[...]

4) the witness cannot be found, although such steps as it is reasonably practicable to take to find them have been taken;

Hearsay — Defence-Barrister.co.uk

Lucy's case was awful. It wasn't covered much by the media, and when they did there was a lot of victim blaming.

 

[Tortoise]

Can anyone remember who were the witness friends in court- Luke, Warren or Chloe- or all 3? Thanks

Luke and Warren testified. Chloe gave a witness statement.

sources -
LS ,
WN,
Chloe

eta sources

 

[dunkley]

I'm not certain but I don't think so.

look at this case for example -

"A lodger who killed a 13-year-old girl to stop her from exposing him as a sex abuser has been found guilty of her rape and murder.

Stephen Nicholson, 25, stabbed Lucy McHugh in a "vicious" attack near Southampton Outdoor Sports Centre.

He first raped Lucy, then aged 12, while living at her home, and abused her again before her death last July.

Jurors at Winchester Crown Court found him guilty of three charges of raping Lucy.

[...]

Two of Lucy's schools contacted Southampton City Council's social services after reports from pupils, including a student at Redbridge Community School who said Lucy had told them she was "having sex" with someone called "Stephen".

Social services later ruled there was "nothing to substantiate" that, jurors heard.

Ms White was visited but was "unconcerned" and was later "confrontational and angry" over the referral, a teacher told the trial."

Lucy McHugh: Stephen Nicholson guilty of murder and rape
-----------------

"Lucy had tried to tell her mother about her relationship with Nicholson, a father-of-one, but she was dismissed and told to 'get back to her fantasy land.'

In harrowing diary entries, Lucy described how Nicholson took her virginity after the pair played a video game together at her home, and detailed how she locked herself in the bathroom to avoid having sex with him. "

Tattoo artist, 25, is found GUILTY of raping and murdering schoolgirl Lucy McHugh | Daily Mail Online

---------------------

Exceptions to the hearsay rule for unavailable witnesses

The first category of exceptions to the hearsay rule concerns specific circumstances where the prosecution or defence have the witness’s statement in written or recorded form, but are unable to get the original witness to court.

Section 116 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 permits a judge to allow hearsay evidence only where:

a) the evidence would have been admissible if given by the witness at trial (i.e. an account which is relevant to what it is being used to prove and would have been permitted if the witness was available); and

b) the person who made the statement is identified to the court’s satisfaction (i.e. an anonymous statement would not be permitted); and

c) any one of the following 5 five reasons for the witness being unavailable is satisfied:

1) the witness is dead;

[...]

4) the witness cannot be found, although such steps as it is reasonably practicable to take to find them have been taken;

Hearsay — Defence-Barrister.co.uk

Lucy McH had left detailed allegations in her diary, and had also outlined the offences to independent Third Parties. There was also the evidence of 'similar fact' where testimony had come from another young girl who had been assaulted at the same location.

AFAIK Bernadette had left nothing tangible that specifically stated that ScW had raped her. The best I can find is her reference to 'Ten out of ten serious".

I *think* that (c) 1 and 4 might be applicable if tangible or irrefutable evidence is available. Or verbal testimony to a Third Party whose integrity is undisputed. Maybe.
ScW was not charged with any sexual offences.

If there was a suggestion of rape, and remains were found, for example with anything that could be DNA tested, that *could* support a charge. However, if the victim were over the age of 13, the fact of consent would be argued. Again, there is no evidence to prove or disprove consent. All the evidence would show is that intercourse took place.
Even if that were to happen in the future with Bernadette, would it be in the public interest to try someone who is already serving a life sentence for a far more serious offence?

Just MOO, and definitely not arguing or criticising. They are interesting questions.

 

[SaintMoore]

Probably why she did the interview anonymously

I did wonder where and how SaW met ScW. I find it very distasteful and strange when a person goes straight to the papers with their stories. Personally I would be horrified to share my association with a murderer and would keep a very low profile MOO

 

[Mercsw]

I think it’s clear we haven’t had the full set of charges and just another example of her being let down. There was more than enough evidence to throw sexual abuse and rape at the dad.

 

[Tortoise]

Lucy McH had left detailed allegations in her diary, and had also outlined the offences to independent Third Parties. There was also the evidence of 'similar fact' where testimony had come from another young girl who had been assaulted at the same location.

AFAIK Bernadette had left nothing tangible that specifically stated that ScW had raped her. The best I can find is her reference to 'Ten out of ten serious".

I *think* that (c) 1 and 4 might be applicable if tangible or irrefutable evidence is available. Or verbal testimony to a Third Party whose integrity it undisputed. Maybe.
ScW was not charged with any sexual offences.

If there was a suggestion of rape, and remains were found, for example with anything that could be DNA tested, that *could* support a charge. However, if the victim were over the age of 13, the fact of consent would be argued. Again, there is no evidence to prove or disprove consent. All the evidence would show is that intercourse took place.
Even if that were to happen in the future with Bernadette, would it be in the public interest to try someone who is already serving a life sentence for a far more serious offence?

Just MOO, and definitely not arguing or criticising. They are interesting questions.

But you argued it was the hearsay rule which would preclude it, now you're talking about the quality of evidence.

Bernadette's texts to her mum haven't been reported in full, neither have her online discussions with W.

The bathroom camera admission backs up part of her allegations, and the murder is good evidence that she was silenced to stop her reporting him. The diary is the best evidence for the truth of the matter, rather than detail, IMO. I can't see what she had to gain by lying to herself in a private diary.

What is your source for information about 13 year olds coming from? A child can't consent to intercourse with a 50 year old man, goodness me. I don't think there is any question that it's in the public interest to charge him with sexual offences against a child. Just my personal view.

 

[SaintMoore]

Scott is clearly coersive and controlling.
The police even arrested him for it

And his ex wife now says as much.

That's two MSM sources.

There's no MSM source for Sarah being Coersive to Scott.
And he was also almost 40, when he met her in her mid 20s with several small children. This shows to me that he selected an easy target.


There's definitely reason to suspect Sarah is manipulative and controlling towards her kids.
But I see no evidence of her being so towards Scott.
It seems people are assuming this. Just because she has a boyfriend, that she must 'wear the trousers' with men.

And I'm not so comfortable with him being seen as 'just a big softie who loved Sarah deeply'
When he's a convicted killer, with now 2 people accusing him of sexual abuse.
Both B and his Exwife
His ex said he would just do what he wanted to her sexually regardless.

 

[SaintMoore]

But you argued it was the hearsay rule which would preclude it, now you're talking about the quality of evidence.

Bernadette's texts to her mum haven't been reported in full, neither have her online discussions with W.

The bathroom camera admission backs up part of her allegations, and the murder is good evidence that she was silenced to stop her reporting him. The diary is the best evidence for the truth of the matter, rather than detail, IMO. I can't see what she had to gain by lying to herself in a private diary.

What is your source for information about 13 year olds coming from? A child can't consent to intercourse with a 50 year old man, goodness me. I don't think there is any question that it's in the public interest to charge him with sexual offences against a child. Just my personal view.

Sex with an under 14 is automatic rape.
But 14 and over isn't automatically so, legally.
Age 14 and 15 is the grey area they can try and legally squirm out of.

 

[RusselSprout]

Nobody sees Scott as 'just a big softie'

 

[SaintMoore]

.

 

[SaintMoore]

Saint you seem to be baiting tonight. You think sex with a 14 year old child and her step dad wouldn't be treated as rape?

Of course it should be treated as rape morally, I certainly think so.

But this isn't about what we think.
Its how things work.

In this country the automatic rape law is for adults engaging with an under 14s.

For an adult with a 14/15 it's absolutely atrocious and disgusting.
But as the guy said, it's not an automatic rape charge unless the victim does a rape report.

 

[SaintMoore]

.

 

[MIdge28]

Scott is clearly coersive and controlling.
The police even arrested him for it

And his ex wife now says as much.

That's two MSM sources.

There's no MSM source for Sarah being Coersive to Scott.
And he was also almost 40, when he met her in her mid 20s with several small children. This shows to me that he selected an easy target.


There's definitely reason to suspect Sarah is manipulative and controlling towards her kids.
But I see no evidence of her being so towards Scott.
It seems people are assuming this. Just because she has a boyfriend, that she must 'wear the trousers' with men.

And I'm not so comfortable with him being seen as 'just a big softie who loved Sarah deeply'
When he's a convicted killer, with now 2 people accusing him of sexual abuse.
Both B and his Exwife
His ex said he would just do what he wanted to her sexually regardless.

I can only say what I saw with my own eyes.