GUILTY OH Pike Co., 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #63

[IType]

They would have needed to return his gun or a gun to his camper after the murders and maybe a pair of Walmart shoes. If that had been a plan I think it went south real fast.

Interesting........

 

[Covert Operative]

Him being shot only once has always stuck in my mind as odd, compared to the other victims.

Another thing that puzzles me is, according to JW's confession, there were three guns used in the murders. There were four murderers. There were two vehicles used.

1. Did one person use someone else's gun to shoot a victim, or was there one person who never pulled a trigger?
2. Who were the getaway drivers?

It may be that he said in his confession that one or more were not there or were there and did not pull the trigger. When he made his confession he knew the evidence they already had what they could prove.

 

[Ann99]

Him being shot only once has always stuck in my mind as odd, compared to the other victims.

Another thing that puzzles me is, according to JW's confession, there were three guns used in the murders. There were four murderers. There were two vehicles used.

1. Did one person use someone else's gun to shoot a victim, or was there one person who never pulled a trigger?
2. Who were the getaway drivers?

I have had similar thoughts, questions as you state here.
MO
3 Guns - each gun seemingly attributed to a specific Wagner
4 Wagners
5 victims accounted for- admittedly killed by Jake using his 22.
3 victims remaining - killed by 3 (?) remaining Wagner's using remaining 2 guns.

This makes me wonder how Geo4 could say he was not there or did not pull a trigger, unless AW did some shooting.

We know Billy had to have been one of the shooters.
Did Billy alone use 2 different guns, killing remaining 3 victims? Not realistic.

Had to be 2 different shooters at CRsr. If not GW4, Did AW kill one victim at CRsr, or elsewhere?

Would the 4 Wagners have "shared" 3 individual guns?

Was there a 4th gun, meaning all 4 Wagners were individually armed?
I can not imagine any of the W4 on UHR that night being unarmed.
As far as vehicles, drivers, idk.
But they had a lot of gear to transport.

 

[Cool Cats]

BBM--I feel very confident in stating IMO the W4 owned many guns, not just the three used in the murders, especially since they were avid hunters/outdoors folks.

Probably had many guns, even the kids had cricket guns. Probably old family guns past down through the generations at FWF from Bob then Bob JR then George (Billy) then George 4 etc..

2 Cents

 

[Ann99]

They would have needed to return his gun or a gun to his camper after the murders and maybe a pair of Walmart shoes. If that had been a plan I think it went south real fast.

You're right about returning those items to the camper.

MO
In the mind of a W, No problem as the camper was on the way back to FWF. Totally secluded. If they did not return to FWF (always wondered what was their base of operations that night) it was still realistic in the W mind that returning to KR was a simple and easy part of the plan.
As you say and I agree, the plan went south. So, at the end of the night, I wonder if W's ended up with KR gun?

 

[Ann99]

Probably had many guns, even the kids had cricket guns. Probably old family guns past down through the generations at FWF from Bob then Bob JR then George (Billy) then George 4 etc..

2 Cents

CC, do you think all W family guns were confiscated during one or more of the searches?
Maybe under seal?
idk, just wondering...

 

[Cool Cats]

CC, do you think all W family guns were confiscated during one or more of the searches?
Maybe under seal?
idk, just wondering...

BCI took bullet proof vests so they would take guns in my estimation.

Doesn't mean they would use the guns as evidence at trial. I doubt they use everything they confiscate, just going through everything to see what's relavent, probably send firearms to the ballistics lab.
Do they give all this evidence back later? Maybe Jake could watch his boondocks saints in prison and Angie could get her box of important stuff.

Stuff will probably end up at FWF. Here Fred hold onto this burned silencer and VCR.

Being facetious...2 cents

 

[Covert Operative]

I have had similar thoughts, questions as you state here.
MO
3 Guns - each gun seemingly attributed to a specific Wagner
4 Wagners
5 victims accounted for- admittedly killed by Jake using his 22.
3 victims remaining - killed by 3 (?) remaining Wagner's using remaining 2 guns.

This makes me wonder how Geo4 could say he was not there or did not pull a trigger, unless AW did some shooting.

We know Billy had to have been one of the shooters.
Did Billy alone use 2 different guns, killing remaining 3 victims? Not realistic.

Had to be 2 different shooters at CRsr. If not GW4, Did AW kill one victim at CRsr, or elsewhere?

Would the 4 Wagners have "shared" 3 individual guns?

Was there a 4th gun, meaning all 4 Wagners were individually armed?
I can not imagine any of the W4 on UHR that night being unarmed.
As far as vehicles, drivers, idk.
But they had a lot of gear to transport.

We do not know what KR was killed with. Would be nice to have that piece of the puzzle and things may be a little more clear.

We basically know or can guess from information and testimony that JW killed the 5 at (DR home and FR home) since casings from the 22 were found at their crime scenes and he admits to killing 5. Evidence of a Glock and SKS were found at CRsr crime scene. (two guns)

There is still a gun/caliber unanswered in regard to what gun shot KR. Could be a 4th gun or the 22, SKS, or Glock.

If there was a 4th gun it would show on discovery unless they could not recover it and there has not been so far.

 

[ohioexpat63]

It would be interesting to know their base of operations just to appease my curiosity. I've always felt KR was last as the Ws made their way back to FWF on the back roads. If any of the remai g 3 decides to go to trial we will eventually know some of the logistics.

Jmo

 

[Covert Operative]

Him being shot only once has always stuck in my mind as odd, compared to the other victims.

Another thing that puzzles me is, according to JW's confession, there were three guns used in the murders. There were four murderers. There were two vehicles used.

1. Did one person use someone else's gun to shoot a victim, or was there one person who never pulled a trigger?
2. Who were the getaway drivers?

I did not recall that JW said there were only 3 guns used. I still thought we did not know what gun was used to kill KR. She did say the information he provided helped them recover the guns used in the homicides but I did not realize they said which ones or how many.

I guess if there was a 4th it would have shown on discovery unless it was not recovered.

 

[Covert Operative]

It would be interesting to know their base of operations just to appease my curiosity. I've always felt KR was last as the Ws made their way back to FWF on the back roads. If any of the remai g 3 decides to go to trial we will eventually know some of the logistics.

Jmo

I had thought they might have killed him first because he normally would get up pretty early for work so they would want to make sure that was taken care of in whatever time frame they were working in. JW also said in his confession the murders started on the late night of April 21st which made me think he may have been first.

The murders starting on the night of the 21st could just as easily have been started on UHR and KR was last.

 

[Dudly]

Him being shot only once has always stuck in my mind as odd, compared to the other victims.

Another thing that puzzles me is, according to JW's confession, there were three guns used in the murders. There were four murderers. There were two vehicles used.

1. Did one person use someone else's gun to shoot a victim, or was there one person who never pulled a trigger?
2. Who were the getaway drivers?

I personally believe someone never pulled a trigger... I also believe BWIII was involved at CRsr’s place due to want for revenge over the fight between them...

 

[Covert Operative]

I personally believe someone never pulled a trigger... I also believe BWIII was involved at CRsr’s place due to want for revenge over the fight between them...

I could see him with a handgun and a SKS, maybe not likely that is the case but possible.

Was the 22 suppose to have killed them all to make it look like one person did it but when they got to CRsr things went bad and that was not a possibility any longer. Maybe CRsr was last. I think the shoes were to make it look like it was one person, thy did not count on them being a half size different being an issue.

 

[Ann99]

It would be interesting to know their base of operations just to appease my curiosity. I've always felt KR was last as the Ws made their way back to FWF on the back roads. If any of the remai g 3 decides to go to trial we will eventually know some of the logistics.

Jmo

I think it was FWF for the following reasons:
I'm not imagining any other possible locations, although there could have been another choice.

FWF was closer to Left Fork and UHR. Compared to Peterson Rd.

FWF is Gated at the entryway. A feeling of privacy and a guarantee of secrecy.

FWF has lots of acreage of open fields, stands of thick pine trees, ponds,
all making it private, no one around to see, so vehicles could be unloaded and "stuff" temporarily stashed.
Also in my estimation FWF acreage would have an off road but negotiable (known to those who live there) way to exit the back or side of the property if need be.

Peterson Rd is right next to the road, House and barns easily visible on a drive by. Although there would be some privacy way back in the acreage.

If FWF was the staging point, easy to stop at Left Fork in both directions.
Left Fork is far more remote and secluded than most people can imagine.
KR Camper was even more secluded as it was way off the road in the shadow of the ridge.

Question. Do we know where Billy was living at this point in time?

 

[Covert Operative]

I think it was FWF for the following reasons:
I'm not imagining any other possible locations, although there could have been another choice.

FWF was closer to Left Fork and UHR. Compared to Peterson Rd.

FWF is Gated at the entryway. A feeling of privacy and a guarantee of secrecy.

FWF has lots of acreage of open fields, stands of thick pine trees, ponds,
all making it private, no one around to see, so vehicles could be unloaded and "stuff" temporarily stashed.
Also in my estimation FWF acreage would have an off road but negotiable (known to those who live there) way to exit the back or side of the property if need be.

Peterson Rd is right next to the road, House and barns easily visible on a drive by. Although there would be some privacy way back in the acreage.

If FWF was the staging point, easy to stop at Left Fork in both directions.
Left Fork is far more remote and secluded than most people can imagine.
KR Camper was even more secluded as it was way off the road in the shadow of the ridge.

Question. Do we know where Billy was living at this point in time?

We do not know for sure although supposedly he was living at FW's to help with his dad. They did say in bond hearing he was not living at Peterson Road but stayed there the night of the murders. (convenient) Also his name was not listed on the custody papers JW filed about a week after the murders as living at Peterson Rd. Not that any of them would be telling the truth about where he lived.

An investigator's photograph of the two bulletproof vests found in the bedroom Billy Wagner used at his mother's home when he worked on the farm and helped care for his father. --- -------Photograph is in the article.-----

A matriarch's fight: Fredericka Wagner denies charges, allegations in Pike County mass murder - cleveland.com

 

[Ann99]

I could see him with a handgun and a SKS, maybe not likely that is the case but possible.

Was the 22 suppose to have killed them all to make it look like one person did it but when they got to CRsr things went bad and that was not a possibility any longer. Maybe CRsr was last. I think the shoes were to make it look like it was one person, thy did not count on them being a half size different being an issue.

You could be right about maybe one gun supposed to kill all. Same with shoes. I never thought of that.
Sorry to be so dense on the guns, but, were there 2 silencers?
Which guns had the silencers? Did the 22? If so, maybe the other gun with a silencer was a back up gun, and they did have to use it.
W's did not expect CRsr location to go as it did, that's for sure.

 

[sunshineray]

Interesting........

It is and a couple other things about KR's murder.

The one shot to the head suggests the W's were maybe thinking to frame KR? Did they kill him first then use his gun to kill the others? We know though that GR was killed with a multiple caliber via his Dad talking about it, (someone just recently posted that video), so using his gun doesn't really make sense unless GR was the random they weren't planning on being there and he messed up their plan of using just KR's gun?

We don't know everything about the CRSR and BW fight incident except it happened very close in timeline to the murders. Was BW alone or was GW4 with him when the fight occured? I think KR would have definitely been filled in as to what occured by his brother and cousin GR, even TR if the fight happened at BBL

I think KR would have been very on guard if certain W's showed up to his trailer. If GW4 was friendly to KR...maybe...his guard would be lowered enough to take advantage?

But then KR's dog is another aspect that doesn't fit with a surprise attack that early in the morning. He would have, I'm thinking, been inside in the wee hours and warned of anyone outside. Remember KR's best buddy BH, according to his mother (FB post I believe was posted with that info), went and honked for him to ride to work and there was no response. That was pretty early, 4:30-5:00 ish most likely because they had a long drive to go to the city for work. So KR had to have been killed earlier than that?

Maybe it was just GW4 going to kill KR? Just because your brother had fistcuffs with his father or his brother was harassing your neice for custody, you might not hold that against the other son who was pleasant to you?

Maybe the reason why KR2 couldn't find her Dad's gun was because LE had taken it as evidence? Dewine came back fairly quickly, IIRC, that KR was not a suicide. Maybe holding that gun helps prove that or some of the other murders?

It's possible the W's didn't plan on killing all the R's that night? Just some thoughts.

 

[IType]

I personally believe someone never pulled a trigger... I also believe BWIII was involved at CRsr’s place due to want for revenge over the fight between them...

I agree.

 

[IType]

Do you think the plan went south when they unexpectedly encountered Gary?

I think it could be that, or they expected CRSR to be asleep but they found him awake when they entered the trailer. Not sure if GR was killed at the same time as CRSR or later. Per MSM, autopsies said CRSR time of death was earlier than others. IMO

 

[IType]

I did not recall that JW said there were only 3 guns used. I still thought we did not know what gun was used to kill KR. She did say the information he provided helped them recover the guns used in the homicides but I did not realize they said which ones or how many.

I guess if there was a 4th it would have shown on discovery unless it was not recovered.

I believe you're right about not knowing which gun shot KR. I don't recall or have in my notes any information as to what caliber was used.

I base my conclusion of only three guns used for the murders based on this: At JW confession hearing , AC said JW gave them info on the weapons used and vehicles used. In the supplemental discovery 6/21/21, there are three guns and a knife listed and there are two vehicles listed. I am assuming that--since AC only listed three guns and two vehicles in that supplemental discovery document--those were the only guns and vehicles utilized. As for the guns, I back this up based on Agent Scheiderer's testimony at GW4 bond hearing 8/31/20. He stated three calibers of firearms--.22, .40 and .30 caliber.

Granted, there could have been a fourth gun that was the same caliber as one of the three specifically mentioned (.22, .40 or .30). But if that were the case, I think AC/Agent Scheiderer would have addressed that issue at the bond hearing and stated there were four weapons.

All JMO.

Link to confession hearing video. At 1:49:43 AC says some of the information provided by JW was new. "In addition to the information that Jake provided us, what he told us led us to discover some evidence that had yet to be recovered, specifically the weapons that were used in these offenses."

6/21/21 supplemental discovery:
Under DNA: knife from concrete 5/14/21
Under latent prints: knife from concrete /14/21
Under FWF: ATF Etrace 1911, Glock, SKS

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