GUILTY Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, British, tortured and murdered, Athens, 11 May 2021 *Appeal filed 2023* #5

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A British woman has been tortured and murdered in front of her 11-month-old daughter during a horror home invasion in Greece.

Caroline Crouch, 20, was strangled at the home she shared with 33-year-old husband Charalambos 'Babis' Anagnostopoulos in the Glyka Nera suburb of Athens early Tuesday.

Police say three men - some of whom were armed with pistols - broke into the family home around 5am while a fourth stood guard outside.

British woman, 20, strangled to death in front of her 11-month-old daughter in Greece | Daily Mail Online
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Facebook:
Caroline Crouch

6/17/2021 UPDATE:
Greek husband 'CONFESSES to murdering British wife Caroline Crouch' sources say | Daily Mail Online
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Thread is once again open. Please do not discuss minors outside of anything directly stated in MSM. Sleuthing and discussing grandparents or where you feel a child should be placed is out of bounds. Also please do not refer to individuals that have not been named in media such as FB friends or other distant relatives.

Thanks
Tiff
 
Just pondering about this.... I guess any change in the usual patterns of a relationship is surely a sign that something is afoot. Issues around stress, anxiety, depression, pregnancy, miscarriage, birth, new babies, fertility and mental/physical health issues, etc. can all mean that a couple's sex life may change in all sorts of ways.
Having said that, if I were a detective, I'd be interested to discover that there'd been a change in the couple's sexual activity, whether an increase, decrease or change in the nature of that activity. Well, I'd be interested in everything.
 
Just pondering about this.... I guess any change in the usual patterns of a relationship is surely a sign that something is afoot. Issues around stress, anxiety, depression, pregnancy, miscarriage, birth, new babies, fertility and mental/physical health issues, etc. can all mean that a couple's sex life may change in all sorts of ways.
Having said that, if I were a detective, I'd be interested to discover that there'd been a change in the couple's sexual activity, whether an increase, decrease or change in the nature of that activity. Well, I'd be interested in everything.
I don't have any problem with investigators exploring all avenues, I do have a problem with a therapist blabbing a dead woman's sex life to the press.
And desire is complicated, but most couples get through the ebb and flow without anyone being murdered.
In past centuries, a woman not supplying sex may have resulted in understanding of why she was killed, but I hope we have progressed past that point.
Sex doesn't stop abuse, I'm sure many abused women can back me up on this, although I understand some may feel if she had acquiesced to demands for more sex, maybe he would not have hurt her. If she had only taken care of his needs..
 
Oh I've been here all along, I read every post as it happened, many of those past posts about her are mine and I continue to be appalled by her recent interview.
Since she felt it is now relevant in a murder case to inform the public through the media they didn't have sex for two months, and her implication for divulging their sex life is obvious, it brings up the question, if I have sex with my partner everyday, does that mean he won't kill me? If no sex is evidence of murder, is frequent sex evidence of innocence?
My point being, this "mental health counselor" exposing their (alleged) sex life to the media is nothing but more sensationalism.

Ok, then you already know that most of us thought she was a fraud from the beginning and that Greece does in fact have client confidentiality laws. I get the feeling that certain aspects of this case are upsetting for you. It's the same with me, only different parts of it, like the isolation and financial dependence.

Is EM leaking details to the press or is it someone inside LE? She gave her interviews about all that info in the days soon after the murder. MSM runs with details and spins that they think will make clicks. B & C's whole relationship was based on being legal (15) to have sex and old enough to get married (18). B relied on the money coming in every month from C's parents. No sex meant he was up to something, and maybe it was a sign he no longer had to pacify her sexually. The change in their sex life certainly played a role in her murder, maybe as a sign he was planning something? LE did note their plan to look back 6 months before the day of her murder, with the view that he spent that long working up to it.

I don't have any problem with investigators exploring all avenues, I do have a problem with a therapist blabbing a dead woman's sex life to the press.
And desire is complicated, but most couples get through the ebb and flow without anyone being murdered.
In past centuries, a woman not supplying sex may have resulted in understanding of why she was killed, but I hope we have progressed past that point.
Sex doesn't stop abuse, I'm sure many abused women can back me up on this, although I understand some may feel if she had acquiesced to demands for more sex, maybe he would not have hurt her. If she had only taken care of his needs..

MOO: B could care less if he had sex with her. As a narc, it was part of his ploy to suck her in, and once those payments were coming from her parents, to give it to her enough to pacify her.
 
I don't have any problem with investigators exploring all avenues, I do have a problem with a therapist blabbing a dead woman's sex life to the press.
And desire is complicated, but most couples get through the ebb and flow without anyone being murdered.
In past centuries, a woman not supplying sex may have resulted in understanding of why she was killed, but I hope we have progressed past that point.
Sex doesn't stop abuse, I'm sure many abused women can back me up on this, although I understand some may feel if she had acquiesced to demands for more sex, maybe he would not have hurt her. If she had only taken care of his needs..
I completely agree, @everybodhi, of course.
I'm just not sure that the therapist has been blabbing to the press, or whether these details about the therapist's notes about their sex life have been leaked to the press by someone inside the investigation.
And as far as sex protecting a woman from abuse, of course it doesn't, I agree. In fact sex is often weaponised in an abusive relationship (by the abuser, I mean) and used as yet another method of abusing his partner.

An important new book has been published recently on the subject of domestic abuse; 'In Control: Dangerous Relationships and How They End in Murder' by Jane Monckton Smith, in which she identifies and describes eight stages of a domestic homicide timeline that flag up the potential for the coercively controlling to kill. Jane Monckton Smith: ‘Domestic abuse isn't a row. It's when one person has become a threat to another’

The eight stages are summarised here:
The eight-stage behaviour pattern of domestic abusers who kill

The eight stages identified by Dr Monckton Smith have been described as a "homicide timeline" that police could use to monitor potential perpetrators and protect victims:
  1. History: The perpetrator has a pre-relationship history of stalking or abusing other people
  2. Fast pace: The relationship develops quickly into something serious
  3. Coercive control: The relationship becomes increasingly controlling, whether that's emotionally, financially, socially or otherwise.
  4. Trigger: An event occurs to threaten the perpetrator's control, for example the relationship ends
  5. Escalation: The perpetrator's control tactics increase in intensity and/or frequency, for example by threatening suicide or regularly stalking
  6. Change of heart: The perpetrator has an apparent change in thinking, seemingly wanting to move on
  7. Planning: The perpetrator will hone in on how the homicide will be carried out (they may buy weapons or try to create opportunities to get the victim alone)
  8. Homicide: The perpetrator kills his partner, and sometimes others like the victim's children
 
I don't have any problem with investigators exploring all avenues, I do have a problem with a therapist blabbing a dead woman's sex life to the press.
And desire is complicated, but most couples get through the ebb and flow without anyone being murdered.
In past centuries, a woman not supplying sex may have resulted in understanding of why she was killed, but I hope we have progressed past that point.
Sex doesn't stop abuse, I'm sure many abused women can back me up on this, although I understand some may feel if she had acquiesced to demands for more sex, maybe he would not have hurt her. If she had only taken care of his needs..

But in this case B rejected C for sex. I also do not see the harm in talking about the absence of sex in a victim's life.

I also agree with others that LE leaked this information to the media. Do we have to blame EM for everything? Her information has been crucial to this case IMO.
 
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I completely agree, @everybodhi, of course.
I'm just not sure that the therapist has been blabbing to the press, or whether these details about the therapist's notes about their sex life have been leaked to the press by someone inside the investigation.
And as far as sex protecting a woman from abuse, of course it doesn't, I agree. In fact sex is often weaponised in an abusive relationship (by the abuser, I mean) and used as yet another method of abusing his partner.

An important new book has been published recently on the subject of domestic abuse; 'In Control: Dangerous Relationships and How They End in Murder' by Jane Monckton Smith, in which she identifies and describes eight stages of a domestic homicide timeline that flag up the potential for the coercively controlling to kill. Jane Monckton Smith: ‘Domestic abuse isn't a row. It's when one person has become a threat to another’

The eight stages are summarised here:
The eight-stage behaviour pattern of domestic abusers who kill

The eight stages identified by Dr Monckton Smith have been described as a "homicide timeline" that police could use to monitor potential perpetrators and protect victims:
  1. History: The perpetrator has a pre-relationship history of stalking or abusing other people
  2. Fast pace: The relationship develops quickly into something serious
  3. Coercive control: The relationship becomes increasingly controlling, whether that's emotionally, financially, socially or otherwise.
  4. Trigger: An event occurs to threaten the perpetrator's control, for example the relationship ends
  5. Escalation: The perpetrator's control tactics increase in intensity and/or frequency, for example by threatening suicide or regularly stalking
  6. Change of heart: The perpetrator has an apparent change in thinking, seemingly wanting to move on
  7. Planning: The perpetrator will hone in on how the homicide will be carried out (they may buy weapons or try to create opportunities to get the victim alone)
  8. Homicide: The perpetrator kills his partner, and sometimes others like the victim's children

Thanks, Winterbells for posting this excellent article.

B fits into this profile exactly.
 
I completely agree, @everybodhi, of course.
I'm just not sure that the therapist has been blabbing to the press, or whether these details about the therapist's notes about their sex life have been leaked to the press by someone inside the investigation.
And as far as sex protecting a woman from abuse, of course it doesn't, I agree. In fact sex is often weaponised in an abusive relationship (by the abuser, I mean) and used as yet another method of abusing his partner.

An important new book has been published recently on the subject of domestic abuse; 'In Control: Dangerous Relationships and How They End in Murder' by Jane Monckton Smith, in which she identifies and describes eight stages of a domestic homicide timeline that flag up the potential for the coercively controlling to kill. Jane Monckton Smith: ‘Domestic abuse isn't a row. It's when one person has become a threat to another’

The eight stages are summarised here:
The eight-stage behaviour pattern of domestic abusers who kill

The eight stages identified by Dr Monckton Smith have been described as a "homicide timeline" that police could use to monitor potential perpetrators and protect victims:
  1. History: The perpetrator has a pre-relationship history of stalking or abusing other people
  2. Fast pace: The relationship develops quickly into something serious
  3. Coercive control: The relationship becomes increasingly controlling, whether that's emotionally, financially, socially or otherwise.
  4. Trigger: An event occurs to threaten the perpetrator's control, for example the relationship ends
  5. Escalation: The perpetrator's control tactics increase in intensity and/or frequency, for example by threatening suicide or regularly stalking
  6. Change of heart: The perpetrator has an apparent change in thinking, seemingly wanting to move on
  7. Planning: The perpetrator will hone in on how the homicide will be carried out (they may buy weapons or try to create opportunities to get the victim alone)
  8. Homicide: The perpetrator kills his partner, and sometimes others like the victim's children


Thank you for this Winterbells, very interesting to read.
 
I am also following the Summer Wells case where Tricia from WS has approved of us watching videos from the Interview Room on youtube. I watched a new one last night and looked down for others.

It was by coincidence, that Chris goes over the 8-STAGE research of Dr. Jane Monckton-Smith which Winterbells posted earlier. This video gives more details. I was very interested to read that men like B try to get their partner pregnant as soon as possible. This case is a classic example of a situation where the male partner eventually murders their female partner and explains the psychology of the perpetrator. I hope you find this interesting and maybe it could open up further discussion.

MEN WHO KILL THEIR WIVES, DIVING INTO
THE 8 STAGES OF HOMICIDE TIMELINE

 
I am wondering if Baby Lydia was in fact much wanted by B. - perhaps as 1) cover for other activities (look at me, I'm an innocent family man), or maybe 2) to boost his ego (see, I have a pretty wife, and I can father children).
 
I really feel sympathy for B's parents (as well as C's of course.) Their son had become estranged from them, and had allowed them to see their granddaughter only once in nearly a year. That would be bad enough, but then this nightmare happened, and is only getting worse. They have now lost their daughter-in-law, and also their son and granddaughter, to all intents and purposes. I just pray that the grandparents can cooperate enough that Lydia will grow up knowing all her grandparents.
 
Terrible wild fires sweeping through Alonissos at the moment, hope the family are all safe and well. Holidaymakers swim to escape huge fires advancing on Greek village
I don’t think this article says there are fires sweeping through Alonissos. Limni - the village mentioned - is on the island of Evia and the fear is that fire could take hold on Alonissos. It’s absolutely devastating to see how fast these fires are spreading and the destruction they’re causing.
 
A fire did break out on Alonissos on 14th June, 2021.

"A large blaze that started suddenly on Wednesday night in southern Alonissos was partially contained on Thursday afternoon, though winds kept reigniting the flames.


The fire is burning a pine forest surrounding the area of Gerakini Laka.

Seventeen firemen and three fire fighting aircraft have been deployed since Wednesday and were boosted on Thursday with crews from Athens."

Alonissos fire partially contained, one hotel evacuated | eKathimerini.com
 
Further to @Winterbells and @Estelle's intro and highlight of the 8 stages of a domestic homicide timeline, there is an interview with Prof. Mockton-Smith in the If It Bleeds It Leads podcast, episode Crime in Lockdown (July 25). I listened to it while at work, so I don't remember what time her part starts, but the whole episode is worth a listen. They also interview Jonathan Stadlen, producer of American Murder: The Family Next Door, a Netflix documentary about the Watts' family.

While listening to Mockton-Smith talk, it was like bits of C's situation flashed before my ears. Some wife killers will allow their women to continue to see family/friends, but only if accompanied by him. The love bombing. Well, not everyone has access to a chopper for impromptu visits. LE interviewed at least 3 women B was involved with and surely they too suffered his controlling behavior? These men plan their wives' murders, which makes me ask, did they fantasize about it, and then rehash the memories of the act over and over? Do they discuss it with their buddies/colleagues? If they do, is it in a 'joking' manner?

One of the key things noted here by other members is the need to educate adolescents on what is/isn't healthy in relationships. I have female friends, my age, (pushing 50), who think mainstream entertainment like 50 Shades of a Writer Who's Never Actually Participated in BDSM and Twibarf: OMG, An Old Sparkly Stalker Vampire Likes Me are solid examples of 'romantic' relationships they'd die for! The podcast discussed a few stats about how many women are killed yearly in places like America and how the number 1 unnatural killer of women is murder by partner (eta: can't remember where this was, America? UK?. It's only going to continue if the culture doesn't change. The pandemic is making it worse, not only with higher rates of wife killing, but the sheer violence used in the process. ...Anyway... give it a listen if you've got an hour and 12 min for it.
 
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A fire did break out on Alonissos on 14th June, 2021.

"A large blaze that started suddenly on Wednesday night in southern Alonissos was partially contained on Thursday afternoon, though winds kept reigniting the flames.


The fire is burning a pine forest surrounding the area of Gerakini Laka.

Seventeen firemen and three fire fighting aircraft have been deployed since Wednesday and were boosted on Thursday with crews from Athens."

Alonissos fire partially contained, one hotel evacuated | eKathimerini.com
Thanks for this info. I was just noting that there was no mention of ‘fires sweeping through Alonissos’ in the more recent article linked.
 

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