Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #6

[ZaZara]

Never heard of Redmi, I wonder where they got them. Just noticed this in the dossier also:

Her phone also had the Maps.Me app installed which Esther is proficient at using for planning and assessing route distances and timings. This app also allows geolocation and uses maps downloaded to the phone so can be fully utilised without a mobile signal. This is the same app that Esther and Dan had used to navigate for portions of their 80-day summer hike in the Alps.

Redmi Note 9 Pro has a great quad camera.

 

[otto]

I posted this last weekend. Re-posting because of accident related to geolocating problem

"Mountain rescue services had to intervene on numerous occasions over the weekend for accidents in the Pyrenees, including three fatalities. Saturday morning, a mountaineer in his thirties lost his life when he fell 40 meters, at the level of the small Pic du Midi d'Ossau, in the Pyrénées-Atlantiques.

The next day, the CRS in the mountains of Gavarnie intervened at midday in the Lahude sector, near Barèges.

"A Parisian hiker lost his balance on a path, at the level of a steep grassy slope, he slipped over 200 m and was never able to stop", explains Sébastien Abbadie, the head of the CRS in Mountain. ...

Throughout the weekend, while the heat was intense, interventions multiplied, including nine by helicopter in the departments of Hautes-Pyrénées and Haute-Garonne on Sunday. ...

At the end of the day, on Sunday, members of the CRS were called to try to locate from the air a hiker who got lost while trying to geolocate his cell phone. It was the gendarmes of the high mountain platoon who found the lifeless body of the 68-year-old man who fell."
​

7/12/2021
Three hikers died over the weekend in the Pyrenees | tellerreport.com[/QUOTE]

 

[Grouse]

Never heard of Redmi, I wonder where they got them. Just noticed this in the dossier also:

Her phone also had the Maps.Me app installed which Esther is proficient at using for planning and assessing route distances and timings. This app also allows geolocation and uses maps downloaded to the phone so can be fully utilised without a mobile signal. This is the same app that Esther and Dan had used to navigate for portions of their 80-day summer hike in the Alps.

I think it's fair to say she was quite well prepared really on the mapping side then with all that app stuff and backed up with a proper paper map and a photo of the paper map on her phone as well to boot! Per the dossier " For navigation Esther was carrying a physical map of the area which she had also photographed with her phone as a backup"

 

[RickshawFan]

I just looked up how airplane mode affects GPS and it’s a bit of a grey area. Do we know what sort of phone Esther used?

https://www.howtogeek.com/194421/what-does-airplane-mode-do-and-is-it-really-necessary/

I wasn't commenting so much on the phone aspect of the GPS, but of GPS in general in mountainous areas. The mountains get between the satellites and the GPS. IIRC at least 3 satellites are required. I'm not a techie, but perhaps someone else has insight. SAR ended up in totally the wrong place during the rescue I'm thinking of where all they had was a ping. It seems to have delayed them for several hours.

 

[RickshawFan]

I think it's fair to say she was quite well prepared really on the mapping side then with all that app stuff and backed up with a proper paper map and a photo of the paper map on her phone as well to boot! Per the dossier " For navigation Esther was carrying a physical map of the area which she had also photographed with her phone as a backup"

I think maybe this has been discussed quite a bit ^^^.

It was unclear if ED had a paper map whether it was a topo map. That's a whole different thing than a road map. A compass would be necessary as well. You use both together. As mentioned, a photo of a topo map on a phone would have been no use at all because of the scale and the tiny size of the phone screen. Topos are big and let you see a large area, as well as steeps, etc.

The topo photos Otto has been showing are about the kind of scale you see on electronics. They can't be used for route-finding. They are too vague.

Technology can be helpful...sometimes. But the limitations have to be understood. Batteries drain in freezing weather. If your route-finding and safety devices and lighting are all rechargeable-battery run (i.e. no disposable batteries, including for back up), late November conditions in the Pyrenees are not a safe place to be.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I wasn't commenting so much on the phone aspect of the GPS, but of GPS in general in mountainous areas. The mountains get between the satellites and the GPS. IIRC at least 3 satellites are required. I'm not a techie, but perhaps someone else has insight. SAR ended up in totally the wrong place during the rescue I'm thinking of where all they had was a ping. It seems to have delayed them for several hours.

Yep, there are three points needed for triangulation (or at least this is the case with cell masts) though two narrows it down considerably and one is better than nothing at all.

I assume there are GPS trackers that hikers can take out with them? But I also guess these might be expensive.

 

[RickshawFan]

I thought I'd find a non-technical article that would put to bed some of these questions about the necessity for topo maps and compasses, poor reliability of electronics for rescues and route-finding, etc.
Here it is: Why map & compass skills are essential: 9 reasons

 

[RickshawFan]

Yep, there are three points needed for triangulation (or at least this is the case with cell masts) though two narrows it down considerably and one is better than nothing at all.

I assume there are GPS trackers that hikers can take out with them? But I also guess these might be expensive.

Yes, there are trackers. They use satellites. They're called Personal Locator Beacons (PLB's). The instance I mentioned upthread where SAR got entirely thrown off course and wasted precious time was a ping from a PLB.

IIRC DC and ED didn't have a PLB.

 

[otto]

I think maybe this has been discussed quite a bit ^^^.

It was unclear if ED had a paper map whether it was a topo map. That's a whole different thing than a road map. A compass would be necessary as well. You use both together. As mentioned, a photo of a topo map on a phone would have been no use at all because of the scale and the tiny size of the phone screen. Topos are big and let you see a large area, as well as steeps, etc.

The topo photos Otto has been showing are about the kind of scale you see on electronics. They can't be used for route-finding. They are too vague.

Technology can be helpful...sometimes. But the limitations have to be understood. Batteries drain in freezing weather. If your route-finding and safety devices and lighting are all rechargeable-battery run (i.e. no disposable batteries, including for back up), late November conditions in the Pyrenees are not a safe place to be.

I have read that there are marked trails, with markers/signage, and other trails in the same area that are popular. It would not surprise me if Esther preferred the trails without signage as they are more advanced and challenging. That choice also increases the chance of getting lost.

 

[Grouse]

I think maybe this has been discussed quite a bit ^^^.

It was unclear if ED had a paper map whether it was a topo map. That's a whole different thing than a road map. A compass would be necessary as well. You use both together. As mentioned, a photo of a topo map on a phone would have been no use at all because of the scale and the tiny size of the phone screen. Topos are big and let you see a large area, as well as steeps, etc.

The topo photos Otto has been showing are about the kind of scale you see on electronics. They can't be used for route-finding. They are too vague.

Technology can be helpful...sometimes. But the limitations have to be understood. Batteries drain in freezing weather. If your route-finding and safety devices and lighting are all rechargeable-battery run (i.e. no disposable batteries, including for back up), late November conditions in the Pyrenees are not a safe place to be.

Ok, fair enough.

So, are you saying ED's disappearance was possibly due to inadequate maps?

 

[RickshawFan]

Ok, fair enough.

So, are you saying ED's disappearance was possibly due to inadequate maps?

Well, that does happen.

 

[RickshawFan]

Never heard of Redmi, I wonder where they got them. Just noticed this in the dossier also:

Her phone also had the Maps.Me app installed which Esther is proficient at using for planning and assessing route distances and timings. This app also allows geolocation and uses maps downloaded to the phone so can be fully utilised without a mobile signal. This is the same app that Esther and Dan had used to navigate for portions of their 80-day summer hike in the Alps.

The problem is a phone screen is too small, which makes it inadequate for the purpose of navigating a trail. An app on a phone will draw you a hiking trail, e.g. trail junctions, landmarks like the Hospice, but a topo map will give you ridges, spurs,peaks, cliffs, cols, canyons, the whole vicinity all at once. This is a whole different thing than getting a phone app to draw a trail for you like AllTrails does.
An app could easily send you on that deathly descent out of the PdelaG. A topo would have warned you not to attempt it, because the trail is perpendicular to the super-tight contours. Same with the shortcut, which has a canyon. You wouldn’t have any idea about these two features from the small phone screen. And the temps had dropped below freezing. Just a little moisture coating the trail (e.g. from fog or damp rising from water sources and pastures below), worn shoes, and….
The summer hike was a totally different outing. There were other people around. Hikers discuss trails with each other…
Also, the geolocation may very well not have been working, because of mountains intervening between ground and satellites, as I mentioned ^^^. Rechargeable batteries need to be kept on your body to work in freezing conditions. This would have included the lights (bindis, which last only 2 hours before they have to be recharged, even when conditions are optimal), battery recharger, phone, anything with a GPS. You keep these in pockets inside your jacket to keep the batteries from draining.

 

[Officer Dibble]

I posted this last weekend. Re-posting because of accident related to geolocating problem

"Mountain rescue services had to intervene on numerous occasions over the weekend for accidents in the Pyrenees, including three fatalities. Saturday morning, a mountaineer in his thirties lost his life when he fell 40 meters, at the level of the small Pic du Midi d'Ossau, in the Pyrénées-Atlantiques.

The next day, the CRS in the mountains of Gavarnie intervened at midday in the Lahude sector, near Barèges.

"A Parisian hiker lost his balance on a path, at the level of a steep grassy slope, he slipped over 200 m and was never able to stop", explains Sébastien Abbadie, the head of the CRS in Mountain. ...

Throughout the weekend, while the heat was intense, interventions multiplied, including nine by helicopter in the departments of Hautes-Pyrénées and Haute-Garonne on Sunday. ...

At the end of the day, on Sunday, members of the CRS were called to try to locate from the air a hiker who got lost while trying to geolocate his cell phone. It was the gendarmes of the high mountain platoon who found the lifeless body of the 68-year-old man who fell."
​

7/12/2021
Three hikers died over the weekend in the Pyrenees | tellerreport.com

[/QUOTE]

Woah good share.

 

[OEJ-JEO]

So, are you saying ED's disappearance was possibly due to inadequate maps?

It seems to me that Esther's body must be relatively exposed, since animals (perhaps vultures) were able to gain access. Given that searches have taken place around all the main trails, and that the mountains are busy with walkers at this time of year, it's likely that she fell somewhere away from the main paths. That in turn suggests she may have been lost, since it wasn't her habit to stray deliberately away from her route.

I'm struck by the trust she seems to have placed in her smartphone, for communication, navigation, and timekeeping. Pictures don't show her wearing a watch, and it's not clear that she carried one, or a compass. She seems to have carried her phone in a mesh pouch on the waist strap of her pack:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageser...11eb-a9f0-ebe3f77d4a7e.jpg?crop=1333,2000,0,0

 

[touch]

a topo map will give you ridges, spurs,peaks, cliffs, cols, canyons, the whole vicinity all at once.

The last photo from this blog post shows her reading a topo map on a previous trip. It's not evidence of the map she had with her when she went missing but it does show the type of map she's taken with her previously. I would assume that she would have been carrying a similar map unless there's any evidence to suggest otherwise?

 

[otto]

Woah good share.

Thanks. It's unlikely that the 68 year old started hiking the Pyrenees at that age, so this comment demonstrates that even the most experienced hikers can make a serious mistake when using cell phone geolocating tech to navigate routes.

"At the end of the day, on Sunday, members of the CRS were called to try to locate from the air a hiker who got lost while trying to geolocate his cell phone. It was the gendarmes of the high mountain platoon who found the lifeless body of the 68-year-old man who fell." (link)
​

Two hikers slipped from a level area and were unable to prevent a tumble of between 40-200 meters. That's consistent with other data I posted last weekend stating that there's no difference in accidents between experienced and inexperienced hikers, and that most accidents occur after completing a technically difficult section of the trail.[/QUOTE]

 

[ZaZara]

Pyrénées. Mort d'Esther Dingley : deux semaines après la découverte de son crâne, le mystère reste entier | Actu Toulouse

Pyrenees. Death of Esther Dingley: two weeks after the discovery of her skull, the mystery continues

After the skull of Esther Dingley was found near Luchon, a forensic scientist and an anthropologist are currently analysing it in Toulouse in an attempt to shed light on the case.

The skull of Esther Dingley has not yet revealed all its secrets. Two weeks after the discovery of bones - this skull, but also two bones that came from animals - at the Port de la Gléré, in Bagnères-de-Luchon (Haute-Garonne), the investigators of the investigation section of Toulouse are working to find out what happened to this 37-year-old English blogger, who disappeared eight months ago.

Although DNA analyses have quickly "confirmed that it was indeed the skull of the young woman", two weeks after the macabre discovery of Spanish hikers on the French side of the massif, the investigators have not yet made "any new discoveries," Christophe Amunzateguy, the public prosecutor of Saint-Gaudens, told Actu Toulouse on Friday 6 August 2021. Many police officers have however gone over the area with a fine comb. So far, in vain.

It should be remembered that apart from this skull, no other part of the body, nor any belongings of the victim, have been found. Neither her bag, nor her clothes. Not even her famous bright yellow tent.

The case was entrusted by the prosecutor to the investigators of the investigation section (SR) of Toulouse, already put to the test these last months by another very mediatic disappearance, that of Delphine Jubillar. They have the heavy task of "drawing up a scenario to explain the disappearance of Esther Dingley," according to Christophe Amunzateguy.
"The investigations are continuing, and they are being carried out with great vigour," the prosecutor insists. He assures us that the Toulouse investigators, like the police on the ground, are "actively searching" for any clues about Esther Dingley. But Christophe Amunzateguy is clear: it will take time to get to the bottom of this case.

"I told the investigators of the Toulouse Regional Police that I would give them a month to investigate, so that they could work calmly and figure out what happened.

On the spot, the gendarmerie also deployed important means: patrols combed the area daily. Here, soldiers from the high mountain gendarmerie unit (PGHM) of Luchon. There, their colleagues from the mountain group of the Saint-Gaudens gendarmerie company... So many men who, according to a source close to the investigation, have once again "carried out searches in certain sectors that are very difficult to access", around the Port de la Gléré, since the discovery of the bones. A drone was also made available to the PGHM, with a remote pilot, in this case a soldier from the mobile gendarmerie squadron of Saint-Gaudens. But all these investigations were "complicated by the wind and the weather of these last weeks in the mountains."

Although they were "upset" by the news, Dan Colegate and Ria Bryant, Esther Dingley's partner and mother, are also still in the area, and are trying to contribute to the search in their own way. As he has often done over the past eight months, Dan Colegate has been walking the trails in the area for the past two weeks, always hoping to find more traces of his partner. But once again, nothing came of it.

The skull must now be examined by specialists in forensic medicine, but also, according to our information, by an anthropologist from the Ville Rose, who was called in for the occasion.

They will multiply over the next few weeks "scientific research on the bones found," the prosecutor confirms. With the objective of determining the causes of death, to try to solve this mystery. And to be able to put forward "a scenario of what could have happened, whether it is an accidental or criminal theory, because we are not closing the door to any hypothesis."

Have animal bites or any other marks been found on the skull? And if so, were they from before or after her death? According to the head of the public prosecutor's office in Saint-Gaudens, it is too early to say anything. But according to various sources, Esther Dingley's skull was not whole. It was only the upper part, with long hair, which made it possible to quickly carry out the DNA tests.

"Everything leads us to believe that these are bones recently moved by animals", Jean-Marc Bordinaro, the second in command of the Saint-Gaudens gendarmerie company, told Actu Toulouse, specifying that they had "certainly stayed in a cavity."
"It is the most plausible hypothesis," according to Colonel Xavier Wargnier, of the Occitania Gendarmerie.
But it is not the only one either: found at an altitude of 2,200 metres, on the French side of the Port de la Gléré, a few hundred metres from the Spanish side, they could also have fallen down the mountain with the thaw or the rain. Especially since it is a snow-covered area for a good part of the winter, when it is very difficult to access... So many detailts that the experts from Toulouse will have to confirm or deny.

One thing seems certain for the moment: these bones were not there a few days earlier. "The skull was found on the edge of a hiking trail. Given the number of people who passed by the location in the previous days, if it had been there, it would have been spotted," according to a source close to the case on Friday.



BBM

 

[Grouse]

The last photo from this blog post shows her reading a topo map on a previous trip. It's not evidence of the map she had with her when she went missing but it does show the type of map she's taken with her previously. I would assume that she would have been carrying a similar map unless there's any evidence to suggest otherwise?

Thanks for this. It seems then she was aware of the importance of decent maps and in the habit of using them, hopefully that can be put to bed now?

<SBM>
Pictures don't show her wearing a watch, and it's not clear that she carried one, or a compass.

I think it's possibly been covered upthread, she could have used her phone for both those purposes. On a modern phone with GPS it knows which way is North so a compass app would work. As an older person I'm still quite old-fashioned, but I admire how the younger generation use their phones for everything these days.

 

[OEJ-JEO]

I think it's possibly been covered upthread, she could have used her phone for both those purposes. On a modern phone with GPS it knows which way is North so a compass app would work. As an older person I'm still quite old-fashioned, but I admire how the younger generation use their phones for everything these days.

My point is that relying on one device for many functions is putting a number of important eggs in one fragile basket. We know that Esther made no contact after 4pm on the 22nd, but we don't know that her phone was working after that point.

 

[Mel79]

Pyrénées. Mort d'Esther Dingley : deux semaines après la découverte de son crâne, le mystère reste entier | Actu Toulouse

Pyrenees. Death of Esther Dingley: two weeks after the discovery of her skull, the mystery continues

After the skull of Esther Dingley was found near Luchon, a forensic scientist and an anthropologist are currently analysing it in Toulouse in an attempt to shed light on the case.

The skull of Esther Dingley has not yet revealed all its secrets. Two weeks after the discovery of bones - this skull, but also two bones that came from animals - at the Port de la Gléré, in Bagnères-de-Luchon (Haute-Garonne), the investigators of the investigation section of Toulouse are working to find out what happened to this 37-year-old English blogger, who disappeared eight months ago.

Although DNA analyses have quickly "confirmed that it was indeed the skull of the young woman", two weeks after the macabre discovery of Spanish hikers on the French side of the massif, the investigators have not yet made "any new discoveries," Christophe Amunzateguy, the public prosecutor of Saint-Gaudens, told Actu Toulouse on Friday 6 August 2021. Many police officers have however gone over the area with a fine comb. So far, in vain.

It should be remembered that apart from this skull, no other part of the body, nor any belongings of the victim, have been found. Neither her bag, nor her clothes. Not even her famous bright yellow tent.

The case was entrusted by the prosecutor to the investigators of the investigation section (SR) of Toulouse, already put to the test these last months by another very mediatic disappearance, that of Delphine Jubillar. They have the heavy task of "drawing up a scenario to explain the disappearance of Esther Dingley," according to Christophe Amunzateguy.
"The investigations are continuing, and they are being carried out with great vigour," the prosecutor insists. He assures us that the Toulouse investigators, like the police on the ground, are "actively searching" for any clues about Esther Dingley. But Christophe Amunzateguy is clear: it will take time to get to the bottom of this case.

"I told the investigators of the Toulouse Regional Police that I would give them a month to investigate, so that they could work calmly and figure out what happened.

On the spot, the gendarmerie also deployed important means: patrols combed the area daily. Here, soldiers from the high mountain gendarmerie unit (PGHM) of Luchon. There, their colleagues from the mountain group of the Saint-Gaudens gendarmerie company... So many men who, according to a source close to the investigation, have once again "carried out searches in certain sectors that are very difficult to access", around the Port de la Gléré, since the discovery of the bones. A drone was also made available to the PGHM, with a remote pilot, in this case a soldier from the mobile gendarmerie squadron of Saint-Gaudens. But all these investigations were "complicated by the wind and the weather of these last weeks in the mountains."

Although they were "upset" by the news, Dan Colegate and Ria Bryant, Esther Dingley's partner and mother, are also still in the area, and are trying to contribute to the search in their own way. As he has often done over the past eight months, Dan Colegate has been walking the trails in the area for the past two weeks, always hoping to find more traces of his partner. But once again, nothing came of it.

The skull must now be examined by specialists in forensic medicine, but also, according to our information, by an anthropologist from the Ville Rose, who was called in for the occasion.

They will multiply over the next few weeks "scientific research on the bones found," the prosecutor confirms. With the objective of determining the causes of death, to try to solve this mystery. And to be able to put forward "a scenario of what could have happened, whether it is an accidental or criminal theory, because we are not closing the door to any hypothesis."

Have animal bites or any other marks been found on the skull? And if so, were they from before or after her death? According to the head of the public prosecutor's office in Saint-Gaudens, it is too early to say anything. But according to various sources, Esther Dingley's skull was not whole. It was only the upper part, with long hair, which made it possible to quickly carry out the DNA tests.

"Everything leads us to believe that these are bones recently moved by animals", Jean-Marc Bordinaro, the second in command of the Saint-Gaudens gendarmerie company, told Actu Toulouse, specifying that they had "certainly stayed in a cavity."
"It is the most plausible hypothesis," according to Colonel Xavier Wargnier, of the Occitania Gendarmerie.
But it is not the only one either: found at an altitude of 2,200 metres, on the French side of the Port de la Gléré, a few hundred metres from the Spanish side, they could also have fallen down the mountain with the thaw or the rain. Especially since it is a snow-covered area for a good part of the winter, when it is very difficult to access... So many detailts that the experts from Toulouse will have to confirm or deny.

One thing seems certain for the moment: these bones were not there a few days earlier. "The skull was found on the edge of a hiking trail. Given the number of people who passed by the location in the previous days, if it had been there, it would have been spotted," according to a source close to the case on Friday.



BBM

I wonder what the Saint-Gaudens gendarm meant by stating that the bones (skull and animal bones) had "certainly stayed in a cavity." The French original text is: "Jean-Marc Bordinaro, le commandant en second de la compagnie de gendarmerie de Saint-Gaudens, précisant qu’ils avaient séjourné « certainement dans une cavité ». To me cavity could mean buried (by animal or human), or just that they had been in a hole, depression or crevice. I think he was explaining their sudden surprising appearance, but possibly it was their actual appearance (eg stained). Forensics will tell.