Found Deceased UK - Leah Croucher, 19, Emerson Valley, Milton Keynes, 14 Feb 2019 #4

[Onetruesaxon]

sbmff

I assume the bolded bit is a published quote, so I'm not aiming my comments at you, @Onetruesaxon, but at whoever wrote it - but this is a really good example of what I dislike about how this case is reported.

Because actually, we don't know that this is how things happened at all. If you take the parents' testimony at face value (and I've no reason not to), all we know is where they dropped her off and that her bank statement reflects the fact she ended up staying at a different hotel. (And we know she lied about meeting her girl friends.) We definitely do not know that she "waited for her father to drive away" and immediately "walked back out and made her way" to the Travelodge - not unless there's some CCTV or a witness, which afaik there isn't.

Anything could have happened in between. She might have stayed at Jury's Inn for a drink or to meet up with a third party. She/they might have gone to check in at Jury's Inn, found there'd been a booking mix up and had to move to the other hotel. She might have had some kind of bad experience at Jury's Inn - a row with a third party or a sexual assault perhaps - and decided she didn't want to stay there after all. We don't really know and afaik no one has ever come forward who could shed any light on the truth of it.

So the small amount of factual information the parents have has been editorialised, either by them or by the media, and has now taken on the appearance of fact. It seems to happen again and again with this case and really muddies the waters imo.

You make good points. I agree. Thanks

 

[Officer Dibble]

According to the map in the newspaper report, she was driving along Chaffron Way. The car is waiting to turn out of Shirwell Crescent.

https://www.miltonkeynes.co.uk/webimg/T0FLMTMzNDQ2ODc5.jpg?&width=640

 

[Officer Dibble]

According to the map in the newspaper report, she was driving along Chaffron Way. The car is waiting to turn out of Shirwell Crescent.

https://www.miltonkeynes.co.uk/webimg/T0FLMTMzNDQ2ODc5.jpg?&width=640

Thanks. So she got a side on view as it turned?

 

[HollyHunter9]

Another article by MK Citizen. The editors note at the end is interesting.

Milton Keynes Citizen story brings potentially 'significant' Leah Croucher information into spotlight

EDITOR'S COMMENT: "As a local newspaper that has spent 31 long months appealing for information to discover what happened to Leah, our main priority is to keep the search for Leah and what happened to her that day a high priority. We have ploughed a lone furrow in that quest at times and our aim is to work with police, the local authorities and Leah's long-suffering family to do all we possibly can to report on the case in a responsible manner in the hope that someone, somewhere will come forward with vital information.It is important that neither we nor the police are sidetracked by claim and counter claim between witnesses who have been brave enough to come forward with information. It is also important to state the Citizen is not interested in apportioning blame. This is an extremely difficult case for the police and we have been a vessel for them from the very beginning to get information and news to the people of MK and the wider public. However, the indisputable fact is that details of this car and driver were not put out to the public to ask if anyone else had seen it. And it has never been mentioned in any press release or appeal for information about Leah."

 

[dotr]

Also posted on another mp thread..
The compassion that drives a search for people who are missing | Editorial
Sep 8, 2021
''..Clearly, Dart realized, people go missing more often than most of us might imagine, and not necessarily because there has been foul play. And sometimes, even after decades, they can be found.

“It is stunning,” Dart told us on Wednesday. “At a time when we have cell phones that track us, and Facebook and computer data and license plate readers, the idea that somebody could be missing defies logic for most people. But it’s actually not that hard for people to fall off the grid.”

''Finding a missing person
How do you find a missing person when the trail has grown cold with the years? Dart said it’s largely a matter of picking up where local police departments, strapped for resources and having done their best for a time, left off. Old witnesses are reinterviewed. Maybe they’ll feel freer to talk now. New, potential witnesses are approached.

There are also new ways of tracking down people through DNA evidence, of course, which Dart says his office will pursue.

So often, Dart said, a rift in a family becomes permanent when neither side really wants it that way. He recalled a case of a young man who had gotten into a row with his father and stormed out of the house. After having no contact with his family for years, the man finally called a sibling to let everybody know he was alive. He explained, “I thought you wouldn’t want to see me again.”

To which the sibling replied: “Dad’s last wish was to see you before he died.”

 

[Cherwell]

Thanks. So she got a side on view as it turned?

No, she can't have.
"I was stationary and the car was at a junction to the side of me, waiting to pull out, so I had quite a good view."

That would be the case if she had been close to the junction, but ....
"I tried to get the number plate, but I was at the wrong angle to see it. I hoped the cars in front of me would move forward enough so I could allow the driver to pull out in front of me and I'd get a better view."

So there were at least two car lengths between her and the junction.
"But at that moment the cars began to move and another driver, several cars in front, let the mystery motorist pull out in front of him."

So there were "several" cars in front of her when the suspect car turned on to the main road. She must have been quite some distance away from it.

 

[Woodburnbay]

No, she can't have.
"I was stationary and the car was at a junction to the side of me, waiting to pull out, so I had quite a good view."

That would be the case if she had been close to the junction, but ....
"I tried to get the number plate, but I was at the wrong angle to see it. I hoped the cars in front of me would move forward enough so I could allow the driver to pull out in front of me and I'd get a better view."

So there were at least two car lengths between her and the junction.
"But at that moment the cars began to move and another driver, several cars in front, let the mystery motorist pull out in front of him."

So there were "several" cars in front of her when the suspect car turned on to the main road. She must have been quite some distance away from it.

And so reading the last few posts tells me that the police didn't want the media to publish this sighting because in their eyes, it was not credible and would have started the rabbits running in the wrong direction.
This would then create a loss of focus in the case.

If the police thought that the sighting was credible they would, if only to scare the suspect, that they were onto them and a description of them was in the media.

This also concurs with my view that Police know who did this, he was part of a grooming gang who had the perfect alibi and cover to lead Leah into the net of others.IMO

I am also interested in the 2 hotels Jurys Inn and Travelodge.

The fact that she paid is interesting, statistics would say that it is the man who is more likely to pay, unless he doesn't want his transaction detected. But even then he could pay by cash.

But there is another scenario regarding the drop off by her dad at Jurys Inn for drinks with girls.

We know that her friends were not there and this was a cover story.

She was asked to meet someone there. Then she goes to Travelodge.

IBoth Stations are close to the Railway station and so had AC arranged to meet her at not Jurys but one of the bars close by?

All Bar One for example.

If LC had told her parents that she was staying at a hotel and drinks, she couldn't have named the Travel Lodge as it doesn't have a bar.
Jurys does and a restaurant and so a good cover.
In addition, All Bar One and other bars are close to Jurys.

If she was paying then Jurys on many occasions can be twice the price of Travelodge.

So IMO, my theory is that AC introduced LC to another or others, AC being the groomer.
The other / others came up from either Birmingham or London and met AC and LC at an area close to Jurys.

LC was given cash by the visitors so as to cover their tracks, she then paid on her card at Travelodge.

If the reason for the meeting was just intimacy then why stay in Jurys when a hotel half the price would do.

Also, if the visitor or AC was aware that she her parents could expect to find her at Jurys, would they want to be caught with LC if her Dad happened to check in on the party?

Of course this was before the missing.

But on the night before she disappeared, had she gone to meet AC again for him to introduce her and the planned meet up delayed so she returned to home.


But again, there is no actual evidence that I have seen advising that LC left the house the next morning.

Did she leave after her parents went to bed and did she go to meet someone at Travelodge in the middle of the night?

In Summary.

I feel that the Hotels are key in this case as is the possibility that she was out in the middle of the night before she went missing. What is also key is CCTV locations. Were meetings held with LC in areas where there was no CCTV coverage or even coverage that could have been tampered with.

If you were AC you may wish to be caught on cctv in an area that also provided you with an Alibi for both the evening and the morning.

 

[Miss_French]

Because someone getting into a car willingly will attract less attention than someone being bundled into the boot of a car kicking and screaming. Look at the Sarah Everard case...WC somehow persuaded her to get in his car as cctv pictured the car with the passenger door open. Once in the car she must've realised something was wrong yet he managed to successfully abduct and murder her anyway.

But you would act quickly to subdue someone if you thought they would get suspicious once in yoyr vehicle and you're going to be driving on main roads in traffic. WC is a police officer and they are trained in pressure points and restraint.

 

[Miss_French]

Not sure if you've ever driven in country roads with bends and curves in the UK but you can see several cars ahead if you are in a particular part of a bend, especially if the traffic is stationery waiting for someone ahead to turn at a junction.

I've lived in the UK all my life, and drive, but the info doesn't add up as to what the witness could and couldn't see.

 

[Scorpiette]

Quoted from Woodburnbay:

I am also interested in the 2 hotels Jurys Inn and Travelodge.

The fact that she paid is interesting, statistics would say that it is the man who is more likely to pay, unless he doesn't want his transaction detected. But even then he could pay by cash.

Scorpiette: I have never really gone for the theory about LC voluntarily leaving.
However, thinking about when LC's dad dropped her off. I assume she would have had an overnight bag with her...
Could she have been planning her disappearance in advance and passed this bag over to someone to keep for when she did disappear?
Just thinking out loud really.

 

[Cherwell]

If LC had told her parents that she was staying at a hotel and drinks, she couldn't have named the Travel Lodge as it doesn't have a bar.
Jurys does and a restaurant and so a good cover.
In addition, All Bar One and other bars are close to Jurys.

You've destroyed your own argument there.
There is no reason why a group of friends would drink in a hotel bar when there are plenty of other bars close by, which would have more atmosphere and probably be cheaper. So the absence of a bar at the Travelodge is irrelevant.

This also concurs with my view that Police know who did this, he was part of a grooming gang who had the perfect alibi and cover to lead Leah into the net of others. .....
...... So IMO, my theory is that AC introduced LC to another or others, AC being the groomer.
The other / others came up from either Birmingham or London and met AC and LC at an area close to Jurys.
LC was given cash by the visitors so as to cover their tracks, she then paid on her card at Travelodge.

Sorry, but I'm not buying the "grooming" theory. It's been fairly well established that Leah was infatuated with AC, and wouldn't have been interested in anyone else. I'd look no further than the fact that he was engaged or married at the time to explain any subterfuge that was going on.

 

[Skigh]

You've destroyed your own argument there.
There is no reason why a group of friends would drink in a hotel bar when there are plenty of other bars close by, which would have more atmosphere and probably be cheaper. So the absence of a bar at the Travelodge is irrelevant.


Sorry, but I'm not buying the "grooming" theory. It's been fairly well established that Leah was infatuated with AC, and wouldn't have been interested in anyone else. I'd look no further than the fact that he was engaged or married at the time to explain any subterfuge that was going on.

Totally agree. I do not think Leah was a victim of "grooming". In my opinion her brother used the term to describe how he felt Mr X was manipulating Leah's emotions for his own benefit.
I certainly do not think Leah would have been willing to have sex with anyone unless she perceived herself to be in love with the person.

 

[Officer Dibble]

Another article by MK Citizen. The editors note at the end is interesting.

Milton Keynes Citizen story brings potentially 'significant' Leah Croucher information into spotlight

EDITOR'S COMMENT: "As a local newspaper that has spent 31 long months appealing for information to discover what happened to Leah, our main priority is to keep the search for Leah and what happened to her that day a high priority. We have ploughed a lone furrow in that quest at times and our aim is to work with police, the local authorities and Leah's long-suffering family to do all we possibly can to report on the case in a responsible manner in the hope that someone, somewhere will come forward with vital information.It is important that neither we nor the police are sidetracked by claim and counter claim between witnesses who have been brave enough to come forward with information. It is also important to state the Citizen is not interested in apportioning blame. This is an extremely difficult case for the police and we have been a vessel for them from the very beginning to get information and news to the people of MK and the wider public. However, the indisputable fact is that details of this car and driver were not put out to the public to ask if anyone else had seen it. And it has never been mentioned in any press release or appeal for information about Leah."

Good share! I agree that is very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Woodburnbay]

You've destroyed your own argument there.
There is no reason why a group of friends would drink in a hotel bar when there are plenty of other bars close by, which would have more atmosphere and probably be cheaper. So the absence of a bar at the Travelodge is irrelevant.


Sorry, but I'm not buying the "grooming" theory. It's been fairly well established that Leah was infatuated with AC, and wouldn't have been interested in anyone else. I'd look no further than the fact that he was engaged or married at the time to explain any subterfuge that was going on.

perhaps I did not explain myself well enough here.

What I am saying is that she had told her father that she was having drinks with her friends and staying at Jurys Inn. There is a bar there.

However the Hotel she paid for on her card was the Travelodge.

So what I am saying is that she could meet someone in Jurys and then go with them to Travelodge for intimacy.

Her parents would buy the drinks at Jurys and then stay over story.

So I would like to know why neither the CCTV at Jurys or Travelodge was able to identify LC and who she left Jurys with and who she arrived at Travelodge with.

Is it not a weird coincidence that the CCTV footage was not available from either venue or from any of the bars that you mention around that area???

 

[WiseOwl]

The reason that there was no CCTV footage from the Travelodge is that it wasn't until some time later that the family found out by checking Leah's credit card bill that she had stayed there that night and not at the Jurys Inn.

By this time any potential CCTV footage from either place would have been lost.

 

[Woodburnbay]

The reason that there was no CCTV footage from the Travelodge is that it wasn't until some time later that the family found out by checking Leah's credit card bill that she had stayed there that night and not at the Jurys Inn.

By this time any potential CCTV footage from either place would have been lost.

Yes understand this but what about the CCTV at Jurys and the bars walkways in this area.
Are we saying that it was only when parents found out about the lie re the Jurys that the police started looking at cctv in that area?

 

[Skigh]

Yes understand this but what about the CCTV at Jurys and the bars walkways in this area.
Are we saying that it was only when parents found out about the lie re the Jurys that the police started looking at cctv in that area?

From what I have read I believe that the police only started looking at cctv in that area after Leah's parents found the hotel payment.F
In my opinion the police have been negligent in their search for Leah.

I really wish another police force will do a proper and thorough review of this case.

 

[Cherwell]

Yes understand this but what about the CCTV at Jurys and the bars walkways in this area.
Are we saying that it was only when parents found out about the lie re the Jurys that the police started looking at cctv in that area?

From what I have read I believe that the police only started looking at cctv in that area after Leah's parents found the hotel payment.
In my opinion the police have been negligent in their search for Leah.
I really wish another police force will do a proper and thorough review of this case.

I don't think the police can be criticised over this.
Surely there was no reason to suspect that Leah had lied about the girls night out until they looked at the bank statement, and therefore no reason why the police should have checked the CCTV before then.

 

[JuicyLucy]

I don't think the police can be criticised over this.
Surely there was no reason to suspect that Leah had lied about the girls night out until they looked at the bank statement, and therefore no reason why the police should have checked the CCTV before then.

I agree. In fact, I would go further and say that the police are very likely to have questioned her family closely about her movements in the days and weeks before her disappearance, in particular asking about any change in habit or out-of-character behaviour, or any relationships that gave cause for concern. The disparity between the hotel she was dropped at and what her bank statement said is only one aspect of an evening out that by all accounts was totally different from how and where she normally spent her leisure time, and allegedly her family were already concerned about her involvement with Mr X, and yet apparently no one thought to mention any of this until weeks later, by which time all the CCTV was overwritten. I'm no fan of TVP, but I don't see how anyone can expect them to have acted on information that was not given to them.

JMO

 

[BrianJohnson]

People are reading far too much into this hotels stuff (grooming gangs etc). I don’t believe she was meeting anyone but AC and that she paid instead of him because his wife might see the credit card bill, similarly switches of hotel etc likely so wife/wifes family thrown off the scent