GUILTY OH - Pike Co, 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #66

[joe jones]

So far, we don't know which members of the Wagner clan killed Chris Sr, Gary and Kenneth Rhoden. We know the state has charged both Billy and his son George with aggravated murder and they haven't dropped any charges. We also know two different guns of 2 different calibre were used in those 3 murders.

So, no, we don't know that Billy killed all 3. As it stands from the evidence so far and the actions of the state and the court, both Billy and his son George 4 were involved in those murders.

I think that the latest motion shows me that GW killed none of the victims, I think by now with the proffers and deals made the state has accepted that what JW and AW says is as close to the truth as they will ever get, AW did not see JW proffer when she decided to negotiate her plea so what she told the state has to have matched closely to what JW said, she went from possible DP (with JW help no DP if he does what state expects) to 30 years, that is a massive change in her options so she has to have told the state IMO who the exact killers were that matched JW, and my assumption due to weapon and victims would be JW killed the 3 at Danas (HR was his primary target) and the two at FR - same .22 calibre, then BW killed the remaining 3,

I doubt GW defence attorneys would be asserting the opinion that GW killed nobody if they were not sure that that is also the states opinion,

the state initially charged all 4 with the murders, but that has now changed in relation to AW and IMO now GW, I do wonder how much the state will fight GW over the DP, I can't see how he can be eligible for DP considering JW deal who admits to killing 5 and shooting one other victim,

GW attys have not included in the motion he was not present at the crime scenes, the motion is just to get rid of DP so GW (if he chooses to deal) may not get as good a deal as AW due to him probably being present and participating during the crimes just not doing the killings,

we shall see how the judge rules, and what GW and BW next moves are

 

[joe jones]

that is all just my opinion and we shall see how it all unfolds, but seems to be some momentum to the case now, and even if the remaining two go to trial I think dates will be set in the near future so that can happen,

 

[joe jones]

The prosecution team are the only ones who can decide to drop DP charges. Right now, no one knows all the details of JW's proffer except JW, the state and the defense attorneys representing the other defendants. Defendants are not allowed to see the proffer.

Neither is anyone on social media

the defence attorneys have now seen JW proffer, nothing said in court about them seeing AW but I expect they will get to see hers, it is discoverable information to the defence, and the defendants have to be able to access the proffer it goes to how they will formulate their defence, not sure if they will already have read or listened to either proffer yet, and the judge can decide the DP is not applicable as the state has to show that the defendants crimes reach the criteria for it to be DP, that is why GW attys are asking the judge to remove the DP for GW,

the state did not allow GW,BW or AW access to JW proffer as they wanted to be able to check the details matched if one of the others chose to deal, after AW gave her proffer she must have told a same story as JW so it doesn't matter now what the others know about what they say,

the state has JW and AW stories and they seem to have accepted their versions, and it must have matched the evidence they have, BW and GW have to decide if they go to trial or deal,

to make a plea BW or GW will have to have the DP removed, as the only way you can get the DP is to have a trial (even if defendant wishes to plead guilty) so state proves in open court the guilt of defendant then they move to penalty phase where DP or LWOP is argued, so if the state is going to continue to want the DP for GW or BW their will have to be a trial, otherwise any deal with them excludes DP,

 

[joe jones]

just reread the motion and it seems they are also asking the judge to dismiss the 8 murder charges against GW

 

[Antimony]

GW may have shot someone that somebody else also shot and that person later died.
Would that also fit his lawyers claim?

 

[Antimony]

If two and only two guns were used in the murders, How did LE know about the SKS rifle?
Did LE know about the SKS before JW spilled the beans? Was there ballistic evidence pointing
to an SKS? More than one type of weapon fires the 7.62x39 ammo, like the AK-47 and the Ruger Mini-30.

 

[Piffcat]

It's so ridiculous that there are "degrees of guilt". Every first year law student knows that a conspiracy between more then 2 people on which they conspire to commit an overt act in furtherance of such conspiracy is held responsible for the TOP COUNT OF INDICMENT . There are many many people in jail who had nearly tertiary action within the group for reasons such as: hiding sources of money by depositing allowing their residence phone to further drug sales it goes on and on. Those are drug dealers. The wagners are essentially hit men. The concept that any of these defendents deserve anything other then the maximum penalty on each charge should leave this country. O am not referring to these discussions rather to the wags and their lawyers. I just read a case where the feds sentenced sentenced man to 60 years for installing a camera in girls bathroom. While this is disgusting and immoral it's not even in the same universe as what the wags did. I pray the feds pick all of them up on Rico after the trials. That was the plan if the cop who murdered George Floyd got off. The feds have like a 90 percent conviction rate and a minimum of 85 percent of the sentence must be served. Do we really have such little value for human life????

 

[Piffcat]

For anyone who likes hip hop this song by papoose called law library explains conspiracy very well

papoose law library conspiracy - Google Search

 

[Cool Cats]

If two and only two guns were used in the murders, How did LE know about the SKS rifle?
Did LE know about the SKS before JW spilled the beans? Was there ballistic evidence pointing
to an SKS? More than one type of weapon fires the 7.62x39 ammo, like the AK-47 and the Ruger Mini-30.

Scheiderer Testified that 3 guns were used in the murders

Scheiderer Testimony from Bond Hearing:

"Bought on March 27, 2016 and consistent for use with a 30 caliber firearm are SKS magazines and SKS ammunition, a AR 15 brass catcher was also bought that day."

"Purchased items were for 40, 30, and 22 caliber firearms"

"3 guns. A 40 caliber a 30 caliber and a 20 caliber"

Canepa closing statement:

"Three guns were used your honor, three"

Rhoden family murders: Tony Rhoden still grieving in Pike County
Special Prosecutor Angela Canepa said in court Thursday that Jake Wagner has told prosectors and investigators that his family were active participants in the planning of the killings and in carrying them out. Jake Wagner, through his confession and admission, even led investigators to where they could recover the three guns he said his family used while killing the eight people in four homes in three separate locations in rural Pike County in the middle of the night on April 22, 2016.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

the state so far is accepting JW proffer, and they obviously told AW who shot who and how it happened that night, she told state who shot who (as she was told) that night before she saw JW proffer and I imagine her story must match JW story pretty closely as the state are now relying on her and JW as telling similar stories therefore what they are saying must be close to the truth (and match the evidence they have).

Therefore we now have JW shot 5 and killed them and shot 1 other once, Billy shot 3 and killed 3, l think it probable that JW shot and killed Dana, Hannah, Chris JR, Frankie, Hannah, BW shot Chris SR, Gary and Kenneth, JW shot one of those once,

But we also know that the W's plus Fred plotted for many months (over 2 years) at FWF. AC stated in court on record that the state has recordings of the W4 plotting what they would do if arrested and what stories they would tell if they were arrested. So you don't think they got their stories straight? In 2 years? Every single one of us here could memorize an entire book in that time so why would anyone assume the W4 (even supposedly 7th grade Billy) could not memorize every single detail of the story they would tell if arrested. I guarantee Jake and Angie's story match almost word for word and you are going to hear the exact same story out of Billy and George. And always keep in mind part of their plot was to keep one of them out of jail so he/she could break the others out of prison and kill LE. I am betting that one was George. They want him out so he can get his son back and maybe even steal little SW after he breaks them out of prison. I hope the state of Ohio has enough sense to send them all to different prisons strung out over the entire USA, other than Alaska where they apparently have close friends who believe they are all innocent, warm hearted dog lovers.

CC can you help me out with the transcript when AC talked about the plotting and recordings in court? Thank you hun. I don't know what we would do on here without your getting us the exact words from court.
JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I know but as long as JW stays on script they will all be not DP eligible, and I doubt he is going to do anything to lose the deal he got, GW wants the DP taking off him because he is arguing that he killed nobody so that if he goes to trial it will not be a capital case, plus if he has no DP eligibility he starts from a better bargaining position, JW and then AW started bargaining with the DP eligibility in place, if GW can start negotiating with the starting point being LWOP or less it is an advantage,

I think GW has an argument for no DP considering JW and AW pleas

I don't know where you live, but the DP is alive and well here in OK. The law here states that if you are present during a felony where a death occurs you can and usually are charged with 1st degree murder and eligible for the DP even though you did not kill anyone.

I will tell you a few true stories to illustrate the law in OK.

Two men robbed a jewelry store in Tulsa OK with only one of them having a gun. The clerk tripped the silent alarm and when they came out TPD was waiting for them. The one with the gun raised it to fire, but before he could one of the Tulsa police officers shot him and killed him. The other man with him when he robbed the store was charged with 1st degree murder and was eligible for the DP, even though he had no gun and had killed no one. He is now serving LWOP.

Three young men were stealing copper wire by cutting down electric lines in OKC which is a felony. One of the young men was electrocuted in the process and died instantly. The other two were charged with 1st degree murder with DP eligibility. Someone I know was on the jury for one of the young men's trial and said they debated for many hours about giving him the DP or LWOP. They finally decided on LWOP.

A man spit on a police officer and told the officer he had AIDS (turned out he didn't) (this was when AIDS was first discovered and little was known about how it was spread.) The man was charged with resisting arrest, attempted murder and felony assault on a police officer. Even though by the time he went to court they knew he did not have AIDS the judge sentenced him to LWOP.

Moral of the story? Don't come to OK to commit a crime and expect any sympathy from the judge or jury.

So my opinion? He was present during a felony (breaking and entering, illegal firearms, murder) resulting in a death so George should swing just as high as Jake and Billy whether he shot anyone or not.

I 100% guarantee if this occurred in OK there would be absolutely no discussion of taking the DP off the table for any one of the 3.

JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

But we also know that the W's plus Fred plotted for many months (over 2 years) at FWF. AC stated in court on record that the state has recordings of the W4 plotting what they would do if arrested and what stories they would tell if they were arrested. So you don't think they got their stories straight? In 2 years? Every single one of us here could memorize an entire book in that time so why would anyone assume the W4 (even supposedly 7th grade Billy) could not memorize every single detail of the story they would tell if arrested. I guarantee Jake and Angie's story match almost word for word and you are going to hear the exact same story out of Billy and George. And always keep in mind part of their plot was to keep one of them out of jail so he/she could break the others out of prison and kill LE. I am betting that one was George. They want him out so he can get his son back and maybe even steal little SW after he breaks them out of prison. I hope the state of Ohio has enough sense to send them all to different prisons strung out over the entire USA, other than Alaska where they apparently have close friends who believe they are all innocent, warm hearted dog lovers.

CC can you help me out with the transcript when AC talked about the plotting and recordings in court? Thank you hun. I don't know what we would do on here without your getting us the exact words from court.
JMO

These 2 Arraignments on video can be found in the Timeline (page 17) here:
Media & Timeline NO DISCUSSION - Pike Co, OH 8 Family Members Murdered

Frederick Wagner's Arraignment
November 15th, 2018 (On Video see Media & Timeline)

Canepa:
We have information from a confidential reliable resource--ahh--source that there was a collection of individuals out at Miss Wagner's home on one occasion, on at least one occasion I should say, in which she was present along with her now Capital Crime Defendant son Billy Wagner along with the other 3 co-defendants all charged with capital crimes, were present at the conversation surrounding if one or more of them got arrested what the others were to do as far as taking revenge on those persons who were not arrested.

And there were individuals that were named but they were to take revenge against anyone who went against them including but not limited to Special Agent Scheiderer, Sheriff Reader and Attorney General Mike DeWine.

There was also discussions of how they would try to make an escape so, again this conversation occurred in Fredicka's home with Miss Wagner present for those conversations.

Certainly I'm not necessarily suggesting that she would you know, become a hit man or anything of that nature but the State does have concerns about her participation in those conversations, potential coordinating of any of those sorts of efforts.

I would also note for the record your honor that she was previously ordered by specially appointed Judge for Grand Jury not to discuss her testimony that occurred in Grand Jury with any persons outside of the Grand Jury. And we again have information that she did in fact discuss that at length with other individuals again to include the now indicted Capital Crime Defendants which is her son and her son's family.

George Wagner IV's Arraignment
November 28th, 2018 (On Video see Media & Timeline)

Canepa:
Additionally your honor previously indicated at Miss Fredericka Wagner's arraignment we did provide the court information that we have through confidential reliable source that there was discussions amongst these 4 co-defendants specifically Jacob, George, Billy and Angela that if one or more of them were arrested and one of them remained at large that person should take revenge on anybody who went against them and they specifically also named Special Agent Scheiderer, Sheriff Reader and Mike DeWine.

And or help the other individuals escape and I would note that is not the only conversation, I only brought up that conversation as it pertained to Miss Wagner. But there have been multiple conversations where those sorts of threats have been made and I would say that specifically George Wagner is probably the most vocal in making those threats.

 

[Dudly]

GW may have shot someone that somebody else also shot and that person later died.
Would that also fit his lawyers claim?

Wording is important. “Did not shoot and kill” and “did not shoot nor kill” are similar but very different...
The first could mean he killed them without shooting them. The second means he did not shoot and did not kill...

 

[Cool Cats]

GW may have shot someone that somebody else also shot and that person later died.
Would that also fit his lawyers claim?

George's lawyers claim that George

#1.) Did not shoot any of the victims.

#2.) Did not kill any of the victims.

Because of this they want the death penalty dropped for the 8 murder charges OR all 8 murder charges completely dropped.

Quote from Motion #73

Motion To Dismiss Aggravated Murder Counts And/Or Death Specifications

Recently provided Discovery makes it clear that George did NOT shoot and kill any of the victims.

"...Thus, the State seeks to hold the death penalty over the head of George Wagner who did not kill anybody while it has struck a remarkable plea bargain with the actual killer of at least 5 victims who also shot a sixth victim.

George Washington Wagner IV shot nobody.

 

[NWLady]

In regards to the discussion about what GWIV should or should not get - just a guess but did AW and JW say he did not shoot anybody? JMO, AW got all 8 murder charges dropped, and we know that she was involved in it up to her eyeballs from the beginning to end and she gets plea deal of 30 years, so then it should be what's fair for one should be fair for all. So, if GWIV did not shoot anybody, as neither did AW, then 30 years for him too?

My opinion is, they should ALL be given LWOP because we know they all planned it together and NOT ONE of them did anything to stop it, to stop any of it, and because of all FOUR of their actions, 8 people lost their lives!!!

I've never been a fan of these plea deals and this case is the perfect example of why! I mean, come on, you can participate in planning the murders of 8 people, which those plans are carried out and 8 people die because of it and you can get a plea deal for 30 years because you didn't actually shoot any of those 8 victims??!!

IMO, that isn't justice.

 

[Cool Cats]

In regards to the discussion about what GWIV should or should not get - just a guess but did AW and JW say he did not shoot anybody? JMO, AW got all 8 murder charges dropped, and we know that she was involved in it up to her eyeballs from the beginning to end and she gets plea deal of 30 years, so then it should be what's fair for one should be fair for all. So, if GWIV did not shoot anybody, as neither did AW, then 30 years for him too?

My opinion is, they should ALL be given LWOP because we know they all planned it together and NOT ONE of them did anything to stop it, to stop any of it, and because of all FOUR of their actions, 8 people lost their lives!!!

I've never been a fan of these plea deals and this case is the perfect example of why! I mean, come on, you can participate in planning the murders of 8 people, which those plans are carried out and 8 people die because of it and you can get a plea deal for 30 years because you didn't actually shoot any of those 8 victims??!!

IMO, that isn't justice.

Angela did not go to the crime scenes George did. His shoeprint is there. George had a gun, George participated, he will go down for murder I am sure.

Even if George didn't pull the trigger of his gun he was still there and assisted and intimidated the victims.

Just being at the aggravated murder scenes assisting with moving bodies, stealing cameras and phones and a recording device, breaking and entering, tampering with evidence, being a lookout, being a driver, bringing weapons/murder kit items, hiding the evidence, etc, is enough for aggravated murder.

Canepa:

The defendant's (Angela's) three co-defendants trespassed into each of the four residents where the victims were found with the intent to kill them.

They were armed with firearms at least two of which had home made silencers affixed to them.

The four conspired together in the months that led up to these offenses being fully aware of what the plan was, and all four co-defendants took part in that such as making various purchases to accomplish the goal.

She was aware the night they walked out the door on April 21, 2021 of where they were going and what they were going to do ......

She had some conversations with them after the fact as well, confirming what they had done.

 

[Covert Operative]

Pike County Rhoden case: George Wagner IV attorneys say he shot no one (dispatch.com)

 

[Covert Operative]

the defence attorneys have now seen JW proffer, nothing said in court about them seeing AW but I expect they will get to see hers, it is discoverable information to the defence, and the defendants have to be able to access the proffer it goes to how they will formulate their defence, not sure if they will already have read or listened to either proffer yet, and the judge can decide the DP is not applicable as the state has to show that the defendants crimes reach the criteria for it to be DP, that is why GW attys are asking the judge to remove the DP for GW,

the state did not allow GW,BW or AW access to JW proffer as they wanted to be able to check the details matched if one of the others chose to deal, after AW gave her proffer she must have told a same story as JW so it doesn't matter now what the others know about what they say,

the state has JW and AW stories and they seem to have accepted their versions, and it must have matched the evidence they have, BW and GW have to decide if they go to trial or deal,

to make a plea BW or GW will have to have the DP removed, as the only way you can get the DP is to have a trial (even if defendant wishes to plead guilty) so state proves in open court the guilt of defendant then they move to penalty phase where DP or LWOP is argued, so if the state is going to continue to want the DP for GW or BW their will have to be a trial, otherwise any deal with them excludes DP,

AW proffer was turned over in discovery to G4 the day of her plea deal. Defense then asked for experts (sealed) at G4 hearing which I believe was to compare, review, analyze both proffers. I had posted the discovery (AW proffers) that had been turned over, let me know if you did not see and would like to. Her proffer seems to be about half the length of JW.

 

[Covert Operative]

just reread the motion and it seems they are also asking the judge to dismiss the 8 murder charges against GW

I would be surprised if the judge drops counts 1-8 or the DP at this point. I do agree with you if the proffer says that G4 did not kill anyone it may give defense a degree of being able to negotiate. Some jurors will not find a person guilty of the DP or even guilty of murder if they did not actually shoot anyone. It's just a fact. There is the actual law and then some jurors have their own on law. The state has to weigh all the options of what could happen at trial along with whether to agree on a plea deal. G4 has not waived his right to double jeopardy.

 

[Ann99]

Wording is important. “Did not shoot and kill” and “did not shoot nor kill” are similar but very different...
The first could mean he killed them without shooting them. The second means he did not shoot and did not kill...

Right! and the first also could mean in lawyer speak-
He did shoot but did not kill.
Everything this attorney writes is purposely ambiguous, unclear, inexact.
Lawyers gonna lawyer speak.
Just as GW4 is a liar.
Liars gonna lie.