CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #6

[Pumphouse363]

I agree with you totally @MrsEmmaPeel
I am a bit older than JG but I burnt out around his age...I was trying to manage multiple businesses, properties, parents, grandparents, extremely unhelpful banks, children, husband, dog, clients, non-stop social media interaction, health problems plus many more different projects simultaneously over many years. The 24/7 stress was enormous.

Indeed Life can be far more complicated these days if we allow it to be. Much more is expected of us. A lot comes down to knowing yourself 100% and applying 'boundaries'.

I'm convinced that perfectionists (knowing that I am a recovering one myself) have a huge time not giving in. It seems like an admission of defeat. It's really hard to turn around and retrace your steps especially if something is not working.

In the end my stressful life blew up. I was juggling too many balls. Luckily there were no casualties involved, thank goodness. I have learned a lot of lessons the hard way. I try to be much more relaxed as a consequence. Giving myself time and pausing to reflect on decisions helps massively.

This case has really intrigued me. It contains many elements afflicting all of our lives. Not least that of climate change.

I was also intrigued by what @ItalyReader was saying about their SF lifestyle. I too moved away deliberately from a City of London lifestyle a long time ago but I did not manage to shake the perfectionist tendencies until I was absolutely forced to. Hey ho.

My take on this:
1. They had moved to the area to live a particular lifestyle and they had to evidence that they were doing this to prove that it was working.
2. The loop was researched so it had to be done come what may.
3. It could be that they were trying to gain elevation to get a phone signal to get help combinec with getting back to the car. Staying down at the river seems/seemed counter intuitive (to them) - this reminds me a little bit of the Geraldine Largay case.
4. I cannot fathom bringing the baby and dog (those absolute darlings) but I believe that they were a big part of their new lifestyle. In fairness, that fateful day was a family outing to spend quality time together...
5. I agree again with @MrsEmmaPeel that involving a baby in your life is a huge, huge adjustment.

I sympathise and empathise with their families and friends enormously. I am sure that the family are hugely missed. May they rest in eternal peace.

Thank you to @Pumphouse363 who has been able to provide us with further information where info has been pretty scarce.

I have also read everyone's comments on these threads and learned a heck of a lot in the process. I'm still a Newbie here and am amazed at how much expertise and knowledge everyone has! I'm aiming to put a lot of this new-found valuable information into practice as soon as I can.

Really impressed with how your LE has handled the case too...really sensitively. It's nice to know that that can still happen in these weird times.

All of this JMO.

It’s not possible to fully understand what happened here unless you actually know the people involved. I think you make some very good observations about them based on the information available. What baffles me is the fact that many people cannot understand why they would take Miju and Oski on this hike in this weather (your point number 4) but do not consider either Jon nor Ellen capable of equal aforethought and compassion for the most important person and beloved pet in their lives.
I will never believe they did this and I don’t believe there is sufficient evidence to prove they did. MOO

 

[Pumphouse363]

I agree with you totally @MrsEmmaPeel
I am a bit older than JG but I burnt out around his age...I was trying to manage multiple businesses, properties, parents, grandparents, extremely unhelpful banks, children, husband, dog, clients, non-stop social media interaction, health problems plus many more different projects simultaneously over many years. The 24/7 stress was enormous.

Indeed Life can be far more complicated these days if we allow it to be. Much more is expected of us. A lot comes down to knowing yourself 100% and applying 'boundaries'.

I'm convinced that perfectionists (knowing that I am a recovering one myself) have a huge time not giving in. It seems like an admission of defeat. It's really hard to turn around and retrace your steps especially if something is not working.

In the end my stressful life blew up. I was juggling too many balls. Luckily there were no casualties involved, thank goodness. I have learned a lot of lessons the hard way. I try to be much more relaxed as a consequence. Giving myself time and pausing to reflect on decisions helps massively.

This case has really intrigued me. It contains many elements afflicting all of our lives. Not least that of climate change.

I was also intrigued by what @ItalyReader was saying about their SF lifestyle. I too moved away deliberately from a City of London lifestyle a long time ago but I did not manage to shake the perfectionist tendencies until I was absolutely forced to. Hey ho.

My take on this:
1. They had moved to the area to live a particular lifestyle and they had to evidence that they were doing this to prove that it was working.
2. The loop was researched so it had to be done come what may.
3. It could be that they were trying to gain elevation to get a phone signal to get help combinec with getting back to the car. Staying down at the river seems/seemed counter intuitive (to them) - this reminds me a little bit of the Geraldine Largay case.
4. I cannot fathom bringing the baby and dog (those absolute darlings) but I believe that they were a big part of their new lifestyle. In fairness, that fateful day was a family outing to spend quality time together...
5. I agree again with @MrsEmmaPeel that involving a baby in your life is a huge, huge adjustment.

I sympathise and empathise with their families and friends enormously. I am sure that the family are hugely missed. May they rest in eternal peace.

Thank you to @Pumphouse363 who has been able to provide us with further information where info has been pretty scarce.

I have also read everyone's comments on these threads and learned a heck of a lot in the process. I'm still a Newbie here and am amazed at how much expertise and knowledge everyone has! I'm aiming to put a lot of this new-found valuable information into practice as soon as I can.

Really impressed with how your LE has handled the case too...really sensitively. It's nice to know that that can still happen in these weird times.

All of this JMO.

It’s not possible to fully understand what happened here unless you actually know the people involved. I think you make some very good observations about them based on the information available. What baffles me is the fact that many people cannot understand why they would take Miju and Oski on this hike in this weather (your point number 4) but do not consider either Jon nor Ellen capable of equal aforethought and compassion for the most important person and beloved pet in their lives.
I will never believe they did this and I don’t believe there is sufficient evidence to prove they did. MOO

Is there a credible source to verify that JG had used onX?

Just me

 

[Pumphouse363]

Some thoughts that linger for me...and I venture to say...for many here. JC and EC had precious cargo on board and one would think that would be an over arching concern in this undertaking.
Yet, everything we know about this venture seems question this concern (MOO). It appears that the challenge of this hike somehow overshadowed the potential dangers lurking for those who were completely dependent on the decisions of those on charge. Those in charge were woefully unprepared for the conditions confronting them. But that wasn't the "denouement" in this tragedy.
It was a failure to realize the vulnerability of the dependents and take PREEMPTIVE action to avoid potential harm to them. Any novice would certainly consider the welfare of those most vulnerable above any urges to accomplish a plan. There is term I would like to use here, but for the sake of the all victims I don't think it would be appropriate. We all make mistakes and I've had some
DOOZIES in my life (many years) , but in this case we have an agenda that seemed to over ride potential danger for those whose lives depended on sound judgement. MOO

My thoughts precisely. If it was just the two adults - they made tragic mistakes. With a much-loved daughter and faithful dog - absolutely impossible.

 

[ItalyReader]

It’s not possible to fully understand what happened here unless you actually know the people involved. I think you make some very good observations about them based on the information available. What baffles me is the fact that many people cannot understand why they would take Miju and Oski on this hike in this weather (your point number 4) but do not consider either Jon nor Ellen capable of equal aforethought and compassion for the most important person and beloved pet in their lives.
I will never believe they did this and I don’t believe there is sufficient evidence to prove they did. MOO

Just me

I believe you about onX.
So may I ask - now that the “final investigative update” according to the sheriff’s office has been released - what do you think could have happened instead?
Do you think they were forced?
Do you think the only evidence they did the loop is the mapping of waypoints but that tracks or other physical signs are lacking?
Respectfully.

 

[RickshawFan]

Someone I know hiked it a few days ago - six hours with a couple of breaks - no baby to carry or dog to monitor and much lower temperatures.

Interesting. It probably wasn’t as hot, either, and maybe they were fitter?
What did they do for water?

 

[Parsnip]

For those of you who enjoy podcasts, one of my favorites, called Hidden Brain, has a recent episode called “The Halo Effect” which I personally found very illuminating with regard to my own understanding of events like the G-C tragedy. It has to do with hindsight, assumptions about the predictability of events, culpability, and epistemic humility. Give it a listen, if you are so inclined.

 

[deadfoot13]

I really care not much how long or how close they worked on it extensively if there's no concrete solid proof about their hiking route activity.

I've been saying it all along about half a dozen times here that there's no hiking trail app that even covers HCT to SLT in one loop because none of the apps even covers or lists SLT at all.

How could JG have mapped the loop route ending at SLT if it's not even listed anywhere on most popular and not so popular apps?

What other more solid proof is out there to conclude that they hiked good 3~4 hours in a scorching heat with baby and dog?

I think there's got to be something more than a guy just searching and mapping a trail.

BBM

Abell Buell mapped the United States in 1784, without benefit of any electronics.

Exhibition Overview - Mapping a New Nation: Abel Buell’s Map of the United States, 1784 | Exhibitions - Library of Congress

Those of us who were born well before the age of consumer GPSr and cell phones hiked trails using a map and compass, or we took a gamble and went exploring. As a teenager, many of my hikes began by driving past an unmarked trailhead and simply deciding to see where it goes. I grew up in a tiny village in upstate NY that still today is not a big tourist draw -- there are hundreds of trails in the surrounding areas, and probably half of them aren't listed on any app, yet they exist, I've seen more than many of them with my very own eyes. I know it's hard to imagine that the world wide web isn't all-inclusive, but take it from us old fogies -- the internet should be the last thing you rely on.

 

[RickshawFan]

BBM

Abell Buell mapped the United States in 1784, without benefit of any electronics.

Exhibition Overview - Mapping a New Nation: Abel Buell’s Map of the United States, 1784 | Exhibitions - Library of Congress

Those of us who were born well before the age of consumer GPSr and cell phones hiked trails using a map and compass, or we took a gamble and went exploring. As a teenager, many of my hikes began by driving past an unmarked trailhead and simply deciding to see where it goes. I grew up in a tiny village in upstate NY that still today is not a big tourist draw -- there are hundreds of trails in the surrounding areas, and probably half of them aren't listed on any app, yet they exist, I've seen more than many of them with my very own eyes. I know it's hard to imagine that the world wide web isn't all-inclusive, but take it from us old fogies -- the internet should be the last thing you rely on.

Such a fan of this post. Not only that, it goes with what I've been saying all along: learn hiking from old fogies. You can't get enough experience to be safe by going on a bunch of hikes. But you'll also find trails you didn't know existed. Trail guide books are a recent invention!
PS You find the old fogies at local mountaineering or hiking clubs. They will be glad to deluge you with opinions and experience, sometimes just for car-share to the trailhead.
PPS the oldest fogies are often the fastest.

 

[starviego]

I await the autopsy reports becoming publicly available. Hopefully the local media are attempting to have them released.

 

[RedHaus]

I await the autopsy reports becoming publicly available. Hopefully the local media are attempting to have them released.

BBM
I too, @starviego, along with toxicology reports, perhaps to gauge how definitive the findings are - what was definitively ruled out vs. what was inconclusive?

For instance, might we learn what illegal or legal drug tests were "inconclusive" given the length of time from death and ambient heat bodies were exposed to?

And included in all that I'd hope journos could get their hands on necropsy and toxicology results from poor Oski to get a better handle on what was definitive vs. not.

I also await word from LE about JG's phone findings once the FBI are complete with their analysis. Two key things I'd be interested in, 1) pictures of the day - to perhaps finally get confirmation on their route based on identifying their locations in pictures as well as their demeanor and who was carrying what and whom; and 2) any text messages or attempted phone calls (e.g. 911) and where and when those were attempted, as well of course, the content of any last text messages.

 

[starviego]

Autopsy reports are public records, after all. Thus there should be no problem getting hold of them.

---------------------------

The local newspaper will be coming out with a detailed report on the incident in their Oct. 28, 2021 edition, so stay tuned.

Mariposa Gazette

 

[RedHaus]

For those of you who enjoy podcasts, one of my favorites, called Hidden Brain, has a recent episode called “The Halo Effect” which I personally found very illuminating with regard to my own understanding of events like the G-C tragedy. It has to do with hindsight, assumptions about the predictability of events, culpability, and epistemic humility. Give it a listen, if you are so inclined.

Thank you, @Parsnip.

I did a little sleuthing on the possible psychology behind a tragedy like this and found an interesting Psychology Today blog by Susan Krauss Whitbourne, PhD that I've snipped from [BBM]. Narcissism and the Myth of Invincibility

• "Believing that no harm can come your way, no matter what, can lead you to become a victim of the myth of invincibility."

• "Once you’ve convinced yourself that you’re invincible, you fail to see yourself in an accurate or realistic light. Whatever shortcomings you’ve avoided coming to grips with... if they're serious enough, they can lead to your downfall."

• "Once you see yourself as the inevitable hero or victor, you’ll fail to prepare yourself for the reality of what might end up being a very challenging situation."

• "It’s clear that invincibility is a component of narcissism, as by definition, people high in narcissism cannot see or admit to their own flaws.

• "The myth of invincibility relates to the notion of the personal fable. Psychologist David Elkind coined this term to refer to the tendency of adolescents to engage in endless egocentric fantasies. If you believe in the personal fable, you see yourself as the hero or heroine of your life story..."

• "Through experience and maturation, most individuals (the non-narcissistic ones) gain a more realistic and measured view of their own importance. Those who don’t overcome their personal fable tendencies are the ones most at risk for the dangers of the invincibility myth."

• Northwestern University’s Drew Cingel and colleagues (2015) believed that belief in the personal fable doesn’t end at adolescence. Given the extension of adolescence into what’s now called “emerging adulthood” (ages 18-30), it’s possible to see these invincibility notions stretch out for years.

To be clear, I am not assigning any of this psychology theory to the adults in this case. I am simply exploring how such a thing could happen to people, IMO.

 

[lotus777]

I really care not much how long or how close they worked on it extensively if there's no concrete solid proof about their hiking route activity.

I've been saying it all along about half a dozen times here that there's no hiking trail app that even covers HCT to SLT in one loop because none of the apps even covers or lists SLT at all.

How could JG have mapped the loop route ending at SLT if it's not even listed anywhere on most popular and not so popular apps?

What other more solid proof is out there to conclude that they hiked good 3~4 hours in a scorching heat with baby and dog?

I think there's got to be something more than a guy just searching and mapping a trail.

The key is that the apps don't LABEL Savage-Lundy as a trail, but you can clearly see on their maps that a trail exists there. They started on the labeled trail, which led to Savage-Lundy, and they were found on Savage-Lundy.

 

[lotus777]

We all already knew pretty much right from the beginning that JG did search the HCT on his mobile app.
They never originally mentioned at the time that he plotted and planned for the whole loop to hike, and that is finishing off the day hike through SLT.
Why are they changing the story now?
There's just too much discrepancies from the earlier investigation to what they're revealing now.
I really careless how many experts or agencies were involved in the investigation.
They still found nothing.
Where are all the traces or tracking marks from the whole distance they traveled? it's more than a 6 mile hike and not a single point of verifiable evidence was found to convince us that the family was down by the river or the valley.

It was originally surmised that he used AllTrails. Then the sheriff said simply "an app" on Thursday. Earlier on this thread a friend of the family mentioned JG used OnX. It stands to reason that the sheriff simply acquired more information over the course of the investigation. There has been no change to the story, no true discrepancies.

You seem to be questioning the work of all agencies involved for reasons not obvious to the rest of us.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

May I attest to my experience on the onXmaps.com map Jon accessed on Saturday night? I doubt it will matter to @jonjon747, but the rest of you may be interested.

1. Jon did not "create" the loop hike or "create" his route. onX clearly shows the trails the GC family took.

2. On the onX map, HCT and SL have different trailheads. I don't know what reality is, but it's possible that their car was parked closer to HCT than SL, whose trailhead appears on the map at the end of HCR.

3. Jon may have had a downloaded map with him on his phone.

4. LE or someone else was able to access and see what actions Jon took on onX.com on Saturday night, presumably by logging him as Jon.

5. How do I know onXmaps.com is the app Jon used? Thanks to @Pumphouse363. And because LE accessed it and could see Jon's research. The terminology LE uses is the same as terminology on the onX map. And because the LOOP is clearer on onX than on any other app map or real map I've seen. It literally jumps out as a loop hike. Every other map I've looked out, the three trails formed a loop but it was difficult to make out.

6. onXmaps.com refers to itself as a hunting app. However, it is a sophisticated digital mapping app similar to apps I've used in genealogy and in oil/gas leasing known as ArcGIS mapping: "ArcGIS Online is a cloud-based mapping and analysis solution. Use it to make maps, analyze data, and to share and collaborate." In my opinion, Jon-- as a gifted software and tech professional-- would have liked a mapping app that seemed state-of-the-art and offered various tools.

7. Finding onXmaps.com answered dozens of questions I had. That makes it credible for me.

8. As always, I could be wrong.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I've added the onXmaps.com map I found when I searched for "Savage-Lundy Trail." It's the same map I got when I searched for Hites Cove Rd or Hites Cove Trail. On the map you can see an area labeled Alma Investment Company. This is an area mapped and saved by another user for their purposes (hunting?). If Jon's mapping had been set to "public," his trail activity could be saved as well and visible to others. (WOW. You can see the loop even in the thumbnail!)

 

[Pumphouse363]

I've added the onXmaps.com map I found when I searched for "Savage-Lundy Trail." It's the same map I got when I searched for Hites Cove Rd or Hites Cove Trail. On the map you can see an area labeled Alma Investment Company. This is an area mapped and saved by another user for their purposes (hunting?). If Jon's mapping had been set to "public," his trail activity could be saved as well and visible to others. (WOW. You can see the loop even in the thumbnail!)

You’re absolutely right - the onX is a powerful tool and if you know how to use it there are many more features including, colour codes to show the difficulty of the individual trails along the route, the elevation and the weather forecast. If you use those features you can clearly see that route is not a viable option to take a dog and a child - especially with those temperatures. If they did elect to do that, they would have been much better prepared. MOO

 

[Pumphouse363]

Interesting. It probably wasn’t as hot, either, and maybe they were fitter?
What did they do for water?

I’ll let you know asap

 

[Pumphouse363]

May I attest to my experience on the onXmaps.com map Jon accessed on Saturday night? I doubt it will matter to @jonjon747, but the rest of you may be interested.

1. Jon did not "create" the loop hike or "create" his route. onX clearly shows the trails the GC family took.

2. On the onX map, HCT and SL have different trailheads. I don't know what reality is, but it's possible that their car was parked closer to HCT than SL, whose trailhead appears on the map at the end of HCR.

3. Jon may have had a downloaded map with him on his phone.

4. LE or someone else was able to access and see what actions Jon took on onX.com on Saturday night, presumably by logging him as Jon.

5. How do I know onXmaps.com is the app Jon used? Thanks to @Pumphouse363. And because LE accessed it and could see Jon's research. The terminology LE uses is the same as terminology on the onX map. And because the LOOP is clearer on onX than on any other app map or real map I've seen. It literally jumps out as a loop hike. Every other map I've looked out, the three trails formed a loop but it was difficult to make out.

6. onXmaps.com refers to itself as a hunting app. However, it is a sophisticated digital mapping app similar to apps I've used in genealogy and in oil/gas leasing known as ArcGIS mapping: "ArcGIS Online is a cloud-based mapping and analysis solution. Use it to make maps, analyze data, and to share and collaborate." In my opinion, Jon-- as a gifted software and tech professional-- would have liked a mapping app that seemed state-of-the-art and offered various tools.

7. Finding onXmaps.com answered dozens of questions I had. That makes it credible for me.

8. As always, I could be wrong.

The onX app is able to log all searches by its users. So, for example, if you searched for Hites Cove Trail, it would immediately release a map showing all the relevant information relating to that search from all the people who have used the app. The fact that you were able to see the ‘loop’ that allegedly determined the route taken by the family just demonstrates that, since the tragedy, more people have been searching in those areas.
So, just because this shows the route doesn’t mean it was Jonathan who created it - or followed it.

May I attest to my experience on the onXmaps.com map Jon accessed on Saturday night? I doubt it will matter to @jonjon747, but the rest of you may be interested.

1. Jon did not "create" the loop hike or "create" his route. onX clearly shows the trails the GC family took.

2. On the onX map, HCT and SL have different trailheads. I don't know what reality is, but it's possible that their car was parked closer to HCT than SL, whose trailhead appears on the map at the end of HCR.

3. Jon may have had a downloaded map with him on his phone.

4. LE or someone else was able to access and see what actions Jon took on onX.com on Saturday night, presumably by logging him as Jon.

5. How do I know onXmaps.com is the app Jon used? Thanks to @Pumphouse363. And because LE accessed it and could see Jon's research. The terminology LE uses is the same as terminology on the onX map. And because the LOOP is clearer on onX than on any other app map or real map I've seen. It literally jumps out as a loop hike. Every other map I've looked out, the three trails formed a loop but it was difficult to make out.

6. onXmaps.com refers to itself as a hunting app. However, it is a sophisticated digital mapping app similar to apps I've used in genealogy and in oil/gas leasing known as ArcGIS mapping: "ArcGIS Online is a cloud-based mapping and analysis solution. Use it to make maps, analyze data, and to share and collaborate." In my opinion, Jon-- as a gifted software and tech professional-- would have liked a mapping app that seemed state-of-the-art and offered various tools.

7. Finding onXmaps.com answered dozens of questions I had. That makes it credible for me.

8. As always, I could be wrong.

 

[Pumphouse363]

May I attest to my experience on the onXmaps.com map Jon accessed on Saturday night? I doubt it will matter to @jonjon747, but the rest of you may be interested.

1. Jon did not "create" the loop hike or "create" his route. onX clearly shows the trails the GC family took.

2. On the onX map, HCT and SL have different trailheads. I don't know what reality is, but it's possible that their car was parked closer to HCT than SL, whose trailhead appears on the map at the end of HCR.

3. Jon may have had a downloaded map with him on his phone.

4. LE or someone else was able to access and see what actions Jon took on onX.com on Saturday night, presumably by logging him as Jon.

5. How do I know onXmaps.com is the app Jon used? Thanks to @Pumphouse363. And because LE accessed it and could see Jon's research. The terminology LE uses is the same as terminology on the onX map. And because the LOOP is clearer on onX than on any other app map or real map I've seen. It literally jumps out as a loop hike. Every other map I've looked out, the three trails formed a loop but it was difficult to make out.

6. onXmaps.com refers to itself as a hunting app. However, it is a sophisticated digital mapping app similar to apps I've used in genealogy and in oil/gas leasing known as ArcGIS mapping: "ArcGIS Online is a cloud-based mapping and analysis solution. Use it to make maps, analyze data, and to share and collaborate." In my opinion, Jon-- as a gifted software and tech professional-- would have liked a mapping app that seemed state-of-the-art and offered various tools.

7. Finding onXmaps.com answered dozens of questions I had. That makes it credible for me.

8. As always, I could be wrong.

The onX app is able to log all searches by its users. So, for example, if you searched for Hites Cove Trail, it would immediately release a map showing all the relevant information relating to that search from all the people who have used the app. The fact that you were able to see the ‘loop’ that allegedly determined the route taken by the family just demonstrates that, since the tragedy, more people have been searching in those areas.
So, just because this shows the route doesn’t mean it was Jonathan who created it - or followed it.

I've added the onXmaps.com map I found when I searched for "Savage-Lundy Trail." It's the same map I got when I searched for Hites Cove Rd or Hites Cove Trail. On the map you can see an area labeled Alma Investment Company. This is an area mapped and saved by another user for their purposes (hunting?). If Jon's mapping had been set to "public," his trail activity could be saved as well and visible to others. (WOW. You can see the loop even in the thumbnail!)

Exactly right! So it could have been someone else who mapped that trail? Or accessed his app?