John Ramsey: Knots, Knowledge, and Know-how.

[UKGuy]

When considering the presence of PR's fiber evidence, the question if she undressed or not after arriving home arises. If she didn't change, there is not much need of an explanation for the fibers, as she wore the same clothes for a remarkable 12 hour marathon. Obviously, if she changed into nightclothes, at some point, PR would have to get out of bed and redress. Did she redress immediately upon rising? Alternately, did she awake or was woken, go around the house and return for her Christmas attire, with JR sleeping throughout any commotion in the room?

I don't see why any nocturnal activities of PR couldn't have been done in nightclothes. Writing the RN did not require the right Holiday jacket. Her redressing would not add much to the timeline. However, the timeline would be linked to whatever caused her to put on the party outfit again. Frankly, I have difficulty in figuring what would compel her to redress for the asphyxiation, which is a usual assumption behind the fiber evidence. If there were a suddenly urgent situation, why take the time to change back into regular clothes? Suggestions welcome.

proust20,
Could be she never went to bed. Another option is she put the sweater over her nightdress for warmth?

Then again, imagine Patsy standing in her nightclothes faced with JonBenet's injury, is she going to dress in clean clothing to effect a staging, or is she going to redress in last night's clothing which means any fiber transfer to JonBenet can be explained away?

Consider John here, he decided to go underwear only for reading the Ransom Note, so it could be both parents were forensically aware.

Which I think they were, except when it came to dna, etc.

If you accept Patsy redressed into the previous night's clothes, did she forget all about Pineapple Snack at the breakfast bar, or were both parents totally ignorant about it?

I reckon the latter which also explains their Version of Events, including JR's numerous revisions, reading to JonBenet, etc.

Another clue regarding Patsy and her redressing is when it took place. Patently no redressing is required if she never makes it to bed because JonBenet let out a loud scream.

Assuming the latter is correct then Patsy has all night to construct a crime-scene along with a cover story, yet she fails in this regard, e.g. Pineapple Snack, Size-12's, Hair-Ties.

Whatever the actual sequence is and who did what, the parents failure to effect a convincing crime-scene, suggests they were behaving in an ad-hoc manner, with little time to spare, i.e they were up late in the morning?

.

 

[UKGuy]

Logan Mwangi: Boy, 14, in court accused of murdering five-year-old

Latest development is that the Mother has been charged with Murder, this means all three remaining family members have been charged with Murder.

.

 

[OldBackstop]

So, to the RDIs.....where is the duct tape? The cord? The practice note?

I will never, ever believe that Patsy could have garrote that little girl with her own hands, the girl that was the apple of her eye, that she was clearly living vicariously through her triumphs in the pageants....done it while she was alive, from the fingernails around the ligature, and then have gotten two words out, in writing or to 911. She is already high strung. She would have been in a straight jacket singing Wheels on the Bus. And then to repeatedly go on TV for interviews without restrictions or her lawyer present, and keep it together? She would have to be a psycho Bond villian, not a Bible-reading Chritian housewife who had led an exemplary life before and after JonBenet's death. Nobody in her past had a negative word to say about Patsy.

Nope. Will never believe it.

 

[fr brown]

So, to the RDIs.....where is the duct tape? The cord? The practice note?

I will never, ever believe that Patsy could have garrote that little girl with her own hands, the girl that was the apple of her eye, that she was clearly living vicariously through her triumphs in the pageants....done it while she was alive, from the fingernails around the ligature, and then have gotten two words out, in writing or to 911. She is already high strung. She would have been in a straight jacket singing Wheels on the Bus. And then to repeatedly go on TV for interviews without restrictions or her lawyer present, and keep it together? She would have to be a psycho Bond villian, not a Bible-reading Chritian housewife who had led an exemplary life before and after JonBenet's death. Nobody in her past had a negative word to say about Patsy.

Nope. Will never believe it.

Maybe they left in a capacious purse. I think I remember one over her arm when she left that day. (I haven't been able to find that photograph again.)

There are ample reasons to conclude Patsy wrote the note. I'm not going to rehash them.

Most people think Burke did it and Patsy was covering for him. And they think that because they project their image of a loving mother on her. How do you know what went on in her head? Her basement was like the portrait of Dorian Gray. ( That reminds me I need to clean the garage )

In California, a Sunday school teacher and mother kidnapped a little girl, raped her with a rolling pin, strangled her with a cord, put her in a suitcase and threw her in an irrigation pond. It was her worst, but not her first offense. She'd gotten off previously because she was so nice and normal and devout.

 

[Speculaytor]

The one thing I have always felt for certain, Burke couldn't have carried a limp Jon Benet down to the basement, to that back room at age 9. He was not a big kid. And if it was the flashlight, over the head after stealing pineapple from Burke's bowl, that would have occurred in the dining room, not in the basement. How did she get there?

 

[fr brown]

This thread should be about knots and the garrote. Every other blessed thread here is about Burke.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

So, to the RDIs.....where is the duct tape? The cord? The practice note?

I will never, ever believe that Patsy could have garrote that little girl with her own hands, the girl that was the apple of her eye, that she was clearly living vicariously through her triumphs in the pageants....done it while she was alive, from the fingernails around the ligature, and then have gotten two words out, in writing or to 911. She is already high strung. She would have been in a straight jacket singing Wheels on the Bus. And then to repeatedly go on TV for interviews without restrictions or her lawyer present, and keep it together? She would have to be a psycho Bond villian, not a Bible-reading Chritian housewife who had led an exemplary life before and after JonBenet's death. Nobody in her past had a negative word to say about Patsy.

Nope. Will never believe it.

OldBackStop,
The duck tape was said to have come from the back of JB American girl doll (the same one (Ordered to replace) and shipped to Access graphics), the cord matches PR purchase from the hardware store (early December), the practice note probably went into the fireplace.

It was a Nedra (PR) mother and sister (Pam) that started
JB on her pageant journey. PR was to sick to be involved during that time. PR could have felt pressured into the pageant circuit with JB from her mother.

People in Boulder mind their own business. They are not the southern friendly types. You cannot judge a book by it’s cover. It is possible. Mom’s do/have killed their children. We do not know all the dynamics playing out behind those closed doors.

Now, back to topic … I do highly doubt PR knew anything about tying knots. So there is that.

 

[proust20]

The 2AM scream is not established firmly. Assuming it happened, it would mean that JB was conscious at that time. If the head blow occurred then, the TOD must move closer to 3AM. So the asphyxiation preceded the skull injury? In that case, the ligature would have to be fashioned with forethought before 2AM.

With the missing items, there's also the man named 'John' who called the hardware store inquiring if the receipts were itemized, which they weren't. I believe that the cord was determined to be from a new batch. While BDI explains much evidence, there is nothing that ties BR to the ligature or to the body. This cannot be said of his parents.

How could an intruder bring their own duct tape, which somehow winds up with PR's fibers on the back of it?

 

[UKGuy]

The 2AM scream is not established firmly. Assuming it happened, it would mean that JB was conscious at that time. If the head blow occurred then, the TOD must move closer to 3AM. So the asphyxiation preceded the skull injury? In that case, the ligature would have to be fashioned with forethought before 2AM.

With the missing items, there's also the man named 'John' who called the hardware store inquiring if the receipts were itemized, which they weren't. I believe that the cord was determined to be from a new batch. While BDI explains much evidence, there is nothing that ties BR to the ligature or to the body. This cannot be said of his parents.

How could an intruder bring their own duct tape, which somehow winds up with PR's fibers on the back of it?

proust20,
The scream might be anything, a cat, biased memory, etc. It's an unreliable piece of evidence.

The aspyxiation likely preceded the skull injury, but both events could also be staging. The sequence does not matter as what does is someone ligature asphyxiating JonBenet.

Everything in the wine-cellar belonged to the Ramsey's including the cord, duct-tape, etc. Nothing here to prevent BR from using whatever is to hand to fashion his fake crime-scene, similarly with the parents.

I'd love to rule BR out of the staging but cannot, due some of the forensic evidence linking him to the basement, e.g. penknife, long johns, footprint, etc.

i.e. Patsy or/and John could have used the penknife to cut the cord and duct-tape, even this would not detract from a BDI, if you then consider the probability of BR's touch-dna being present on the barbie nightgown, which was so toxic it was dumped into the wine-cellar.

.

 

[icedtea4me]

So, to the RDIs.....where is the duct tape? The cord? The practice note?

<snip>

I say that any remaining duct tape and cord and the end of the paintbrush were smuggled out of the house on 26 Dec. The items were rolled into one end of the large silk scarf John tucked around JonBenet's body in the casket. As John tucked the scarf, the items were put under her body.

 

[proust20]

UKGuy,

The sequence of lethal events pertains to the motive - fit of rage or the SA? IMO, as staging, the head blow after asphyxiation works better than the other way around. The wound to the skull did not bleed visibly. There was no attempt to worsen the head injury for theatrical effect.

The 2AM scream is unreliable. The simplest explanation is that JB was strangled manually upstairs, and everything else is staged.

Something would have begun to go awry quite soon after coming home, if PR never undressed after the Whites'? This would have her still in the party clothes when the pineapple was being eaten. Although hovering nearby, she didn't see the importance of this snack in the overall scheme?

 

[Rain on my Parade]

I say that any remaining duct tape and cord and the end of the paintbrush were smuggled out of the house on 26 Dec. The items were rolled into one end of the large silk scarf John tucked around JonBenet's body in the casket. As John tucked the scarf, the items were put under her body.

icedtea4me,
My goodness! PR could have carried items out in her purse and floor length fur coat she walked out of the house in/with on the 26th.

It begs the questions … where did BR Christmas bike run off too?

 

[proust20]

The staging includes necessarily items which are missing or were obliterated.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

UKGuy,

The sequence of lethal events pertains to the motive - fit of rage or the SA? IMO, as staging, the head blow after asphyxiation works better than the other way around. The wound to the skull did not bleed visibly. There was no attempt to worsen the head injury for theatrical effect.

The 2AM scream is unreliable. The simplest explanation is that JB was strangled manually upstairs, and everything else is staged.

Something would have begun to go awry quite soon after coming home, if PR never undressed after the Whites'? This would have her still in the party clothes when the pineapple was being eaten. Although hovering nearby, she didn't see the importance of this snack in the overall scheme?

proust20,
I believe the fruit cocktail JB consumed took approx 30 to 40 minutes for her to digest. PR could have been taking care off last minute tasks before she actually headed up to bed and changed her cloths. The fiber evidence from her sweater (turned over to BPD a little over a year after JB passed) was a consistent match, where as JR fiber evidence was exact.

The question I’d like an answer to is why was JR fiber evidence in the folds of JB labia? Who was the SA of JB? I agree, was it a fit of rage or SA as the motive? Any family member could have their own personal reasons for a fit of rage. Maybe BR lost it over JB taking his food by hand or stomping on his toy. Maybe JB (on the 23rd) actually said she was going to tell on her abuser. After all, she was seen and spoken to sitting on the spiral staircase crying stating she didn’t feel pretty. I know she had put on makeup for the party and PR told her to march upstairs and take it off. If this is what upset her then it directly speaks to how the pageants were actually affecting her. It is not normal (IMO) for a 6 year old little girl to question whether or not she is pretty. There is more here then meets the eye. Pageants (IMO) for little girls is sexualizing them.

I wish they would open up the evidence files on this case. It seems the case was a total fumble from the moment the police arrived that morning. Which leads me further to believe that JR was on the horn calling government officials prior to the 911 call. Whatever happened all three members were involved in the coverup.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

The staging includes necessarily items which are missing or were obliterated.

proust20,
Where does that leave the Barbie nightgown?

 

[proust20]

PR bleaching JB's hair would make her feel inadequate and not the perfect little princess, which was the role assigned to her by the family. PR's family are brunettes. Did PR think that she'd have won Miss America if she had been blonde? The Boulder moms wanted to speak to her after the Holidays. PR accustomed JB with wearing makeup.

That SA is part of the CS indicates guilty knowledge of what was going on with JB. Even if the abuser were not the killer, the killer had to know of the chronic situation; and yet, he/she still chose to protect the abuser? If the murder were not part of SA incident that night, why then incorporate it? The final assault was in keeping with the previous. JB was partially intact. This is also guilty knowledge. At least on paper, JR is the likely abuser.

 

[UKGuy]

proust20,
I believe the fruit cocktail JB consumed took approx 30 to 40 minutes for her to digest. PR could have been taking care off last minute tasks before she actually headed up to bed and changed her cloths. The fiber evidence from her sweater (turned over to BPD a little over a year after JB passed) was a consistent match, where as JR fiber evidence was exact.

The question I’d like an answer to is why was JR fiber evidence in the folds of JB labia? Who was the SA of JB? I agree, was it a fit of rage or SA as the motive? Any family member could have their own personal reasons for a fit of rage. Maybe BR lost it over JB taking his food by hand or stomping on his toy. Maybe JB (on the 23rd) actually said she was going to tell on her abuser. After all, she was seen and spoken to sitting on the spiral staircase crying stating she didn’t feel pretty. I know she had put on makeup for the party and PR told her to march upstairs and take it off. If this is what upset her then it directly speaks to how the pageants were actually affecting her. It is not normal (IMO) for a 6 year old little girl to question whether or not she is pretty. There is more here then meets the eye. Pageants (IMO) for little girls is sexualizing them.

I wish they would open up the evidence files on this case. It seems the case was a total fumble from the moment the police arrived that morning. Which leads me further to believe that JR was on the horn calling government officials prior to the 911 call. Whatever happened all three members were involved in the coverup.

Rain on my Parade,

The question I’d like an answer to is why was JR fiber evidence in the folds of JB labia? Who was the SA of JB?

Well, JR might have wiped JonBenet down as part of the cleanup stage, see Coroner Meyer's remarks about this.

JR might have committed the SA then attempted a cleanup?

Another family member used JR's shirt to wipe JonBenet down.

That's about it, take your pick.


I reckon JonBenet made it to her bedroom, with BR joining her at some point. Consider the missing pajama bottoms, (Patsy references them in her version of events), and the hair-ties, suggesting JonBenet was prepared for bed?

The items that are missing or questionable do not need to be missing or queried if all you have is an accident caused by BR, JR or PR.

If JonBenet wets the bed Patsy only needs to redress her in a size-6 pair of underwear, there is no need to vanish the pajama bottoms, these can be handwashed along with her missing size-6 underwear, and left out to dry.

Yes, JonBenet wearing makeup, JonBenet wanting to wear the latest fashion clothes, e.g. Gap top etc.

So JonBenet was definitely being influenced by her pageant appearances, something Patsy was losing control over.

.

 

[icedtea4me]

icedtea4me,
My goodness! PR could have carried items out in her purse and floor length fur coat she walked out of the house in/with on the 26th.

It begs the questions … where did BR Christmas bike run off too?

I doubt very much Burke would've gotten a new bike that year and is misremembering. After all, since JonBenet got a new bike at age 6, then isn't it likely that Burke would've also received a new bike for Xmas or his birthday around the same age or so?

 

[Rain on my Parade]

I doubt very much Burke would've gotten a new bike that year and is misremembering. After all, since JonBenet got a new bike at age 6, then isn't it likely that Burke would've also received a new bike for Xmas or his birthday around the same age or so?

icedtea4me,
How about this:

Burke admitted in his Dr. Phil interview that he did indeed get a bike that year.

 

[icedtea4me]

icedtea4me,
How about this:
View attachment 319057

Burke admitted in his Dr. Phil interview that he did indeed get a bike that year.

Burke also said that JonBenet got a dollhouse for Xmas, but she didn't.