FL - Sara Morales, 35, shot dead by motorcyclist she hit with car, Orange City, 20 Nov 2021
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Legally it is not. Castle Doctrine in my state does not apply to yards.
My house is on a popular cut through. For better or for worse, trespassing occurs several times a week through a private drive.
Most of the trespassers are middle aged white women, some are hispanic pre teens and one is a young black man. I have never pointed a weapon at a trespasser and have no intentions to.
Though I don have a second amendment right, I dont need it to follow somebody who intentionally damages my car and refuses to stop.
My second amendment rights, however, do not permit to point weapons at trespassers. That goes double when the trespassers followed me because I deliberately damaged their property.
PremeditatedCrime
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I honestly don't understand this comment. There's no proof that Sara would be worried just because someone trespassed on her lawn or property (and front porch). The police have stated that Sara told the 911 Operator that the men threatened her. She made two 911 calls (one from her car; and one from a landline at her house), but they haven't been released to the public. Why not? This is the first time that someone has suggested that Sara merely had an issue with trespassers.
How do we know that Sara pointed a gun? We don't know how heavy the handgun was. A small woman (which Sara was) generally requires two hands to point a gun. Sara was using one hand to hold a phone up to her ear. Besides, if Sara pointed the gun, the guys should have said: "Hands up, Mam. Can I have twenty seconds to leave the premises."
Had Sara been a man defending her 11-year-old daughter and older mother, would we consider her a hero?
BBM.
Do you have a no trespassing sign on your shortcut? So, your 2nd amendment rights do not include trespassers but do include damage to property?
everybodhi
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bbm
Florida's 'stand your ground' law explained: Q&A
Additionally, “stand your ground” only applies if the person who uses force in self defense is in a place where they’re legally allowed to be.
A person who is threatened while trespassing or breaking into someone’s home can’t claim self-defense under “stand your ground.”
“Duty to retreat” is the expectation that a person who’s being threatened with bodily harm will make a reasonable attempt to escape from the situation before resorting to using deadly force. In almost than half of U.S. states, it’s only legal to use deadly force in self-defense if you’ve attempted other avenues of escape or de-escalation unless you're in your own home, according to Findlaw.com.
This is not the case in Florida. A person who is obeying the law and in a place where he or she is permitted to be has no obligation to try to get away.
As a female and I were to hit a motorcyclist (who was in a group of bikers) accidentally or intentionally I would like to think I would wait for the police to arrive IF we were in a public place where others could see what was going on. If the area was remote, or I felt unsafe I could see myself leaving the scene and driving directly to the police station or home whichever was closer while calling the cops. Once I was home I would have went inside and locked up and bunkered down with my weapon. And if someone came through the door trying to harm me or mine I would have unloaded my weapon. I couldn't imagine going back outside to confront men I was fleeing. I know if I'm packing the next person is probably packing.
Having said that I know logic leaves and emotions and adrenaline gets to flowing in these situations so I can't say for sure what would have happened. I am not victim blaming here. I just don't understand her going outside to confront the men. Only Sara could say why she went outside with a gun.
God rest Sara and the baby's soul
Having said that I know logic leaves and emotions and adrenaline gets to flowing in these situations so I can't say for sure what would have happened. I am not victim blaming here. I just don't understand her going outside to confront the men. Only Sara could say why she went outside with a gun.
God rest Sara and the baby's soul
Where I live that is not a death sentence or a reason to kill someone.
You are assuming that Sara thought that those men were not going to break into her house. She had no assurance that they were not. They chased her and were on her property.
Snoods
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So in your opinion are people allowed or not allowed to creep on someone’s property and not get shot?
I'm not assuming they weren't going to break in. I'm saying I would have waited until they broke in BEFORE I would have went outside to confront them.
So are you saying I'm so scared they are going to break in so I go outside where they are and confront them with a gun?
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I have no idea what that means.
So, does that mean that you would have waited in your house until they broke in? I think I may be misunderstanding your post.
<modsnip > I'm not sure what caused her to have extreme road rage and strike someone with her car. Just because she was pregnant and a library assistant doesn't mean she was an angel.
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everybodhi
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In Florida, the homeowner had no duty to retreat, that’s the law.
If she had killed everyone on her property that day she most likely would not have been charged.
Stand your ground, shoot first because the living control the narrative, as we see in this case. Dead people don’t get to tell their side of the story.
This is a very long article from 2013 full of crazy cases of immunity from prosecution based on the Florida law.
However, trespassing on her property could be these guys undoing, it’s a clearly written exemption to immunity.
Florida 'stand your ground' law yields some shocking outcomes depending on how law is applied
While many have argued the law does not allow someone to pick a fight and claim immunity, it has been used to do just that. It is broad enough that one judge complained that in a Wild West-type shootout, where everybody is armed, everyone might go free.
"Each individual on each side of the exchange of gunfire can claim self-defense," Leon County Circuit Judge Terry P. Lewis wrote in 2010, saying it "could conceivably result in all persons who exchanged gunfire on a public street being immune from prosecution."
"You don't have to wait until you're dead before you use deadly force."
'Emboldening'
As "stand your ground" claims have increased, so too has the number of Floridians with guns. Concealed weapons permits now stand at 1.1 million, three times as many as in 2005 when the law was passed.
"I think the (stand your ground) law has an emboldening effect. All of a sudden, you're a tough guy and can be aggressive,'' said George Kirkham, a professor emeritus at Florida State University who has worked as a police officer.
Criminologists say that when people with guns get the message they have a right to stand and fight, rather than retreat, the threshold for using that gun goes down. All too often, Bruce Bartlett, chief assistant state attorney for Pinellas-Pasco counties, sees the result.
"I see cases where I'll think, 'This person didn't really need to kill that person but the law, as it is written, justifies their action,' " Bartlett said about incidents that his office decides not to prosecute due to "stand your ground." "It may be legally within the boundaries. But at the end of the day, was it really necessary?"
PremeditatedCrime
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Maybe we should forget about the traffic accident? Maybe it was the biker who hit Sara?
But remember that Sara may have been sexually harassed. This might have started in the library. Also, Sara lived in a small city/town of just over 10,000 people. The crime rate is extremely high in Orange City. And motorcycle gangs are very prevalent in that location. Sara would know that the crime rate was high in her city, and she would know that motorcycle gangs are very prevalent in that location. Sara would know what went on in the town because she worked at a local community library. Libraries are outreach services and community centers, so Sara would know what was going on in the small city/town.
Why is Sara's character on trial? A man would be considered a hero. While I'm not judging Sara, I do believe that at least one male biker tried to enter her house? Why? Because of the motorcycle parked on the front porch.
Are we going to pretend that this is about a traffic accident? We might as well pretend that the bikers meant no harm. In my viewpoint, the men tracked her down with the intent to either kill or rape her. I believe this was premeditated. The men should have left when Sara insisted, or when the 911 Dispatcher told the men to leave the premises.
Please do not remain at an accident scene if anything is dangerous. Law enforcement advises women not to do this. You would be making a big mistake to remain at the scene with bikers - they would find out your name, your address, and your phone number. Do you want bikers to know your name, your address, and your phone number? And once they have your address and phone number, they could find out when your adult son or brother or boyfriend or husband is not home. So how does waiting on a public street/place with lots of people around change this issue? Do you want the motorcycle gang to learn your address and phone number and name? I don't understand how a public place changes any of this.
I don't understand any of this. We don't even know if Sara really pointed a gun, since one hand was holding the phone to her ear. And if Sara was a man defending her 11-year-old daughter and older mother, she'd be a hero. So what if Sara went outside to confront the men? The men were trying to get inside the house anyway. And maybe she just snapped or was panicked.
This has nothing to do with a traffic accident. In my opinion, the three male bikers tracked her down <modsnip> They had plenty of opportunity to leave the premises but did not leave.
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But the bikers are? Extreme road rage that did not damage the biker's bike? What do you call 'extreme road rage'?
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That's exactly what I'm saying. I would have stayed locked inside until the police arrived or until they broke in instead of going outside with a gun and confronting them. We are not sure they would have broken in that's an assumption.
In MY mind, it would have been less of an escalation to stay in the house until the police arrived. Even if they broke in.
And she was on the phone with the police when she was being chased. I wonder how long after the shooting did the police arrived.
everybodhi
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If I was a victim of a traffic road rage incident, the last thing I would do is follow the enraged person and confront them at their home, in close proximity. I would call 911 and try to get a pic of their tag and note a description of the car and driver, (especially traveling with my buddies that should be easily doable).
The alleged road rage victim didn’t call 911 until after he shot her, then his buddy called.
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