MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* #2

[drama_farmer]

Something "in the air" made some students decide not to go to school that day -- dunno what, of course, but something made them suspicious enuff to stay home...

More information about "what people knew" is surely forthcoming. But, I've also considered that every day, in school systems across the country, there are kids who don't feel like attending class on a particular day. One handy excuse might be "I heard something was going down." IMO

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Crumbley parents arrested in Michigan may start school shooting legal trend (nbcnews.com)

Charging Jennifer and James Crumbley with manslaughter for allegedly permitting Ethan Crumbley access to the gun used at Oxford High School sends a strong message.

On Friday, Oakland County, Michigan prosecutor Karen McDonald filed four counts of involuntary manslaughter against James and Jennifer Crumbley. The Crumbley’s 15-year-old son Ethan is the main suspect in a shooting on Tuesday that left four students at Oxford High School dead. (All have pleaded not guilty.)...

 

[Boxer]

His dad did buy him the gun. Prosecution has said they have over 100 hours of electronic evidence, I suspect in there there is talk of "if that happened to me this is what I would do". I saw a screenshot of a post from three years ago where the mother was saying "parents, revenge is coming, the dad answered knowing Ethan it’s coming sooner rather than later". I think it’s safe to say they were definitely unhealthy influences, neglect in that home, combine that with a gun and we have this tragedy.

MOO It was de facto Ethans gun, bought by Dad.
MOO they wanted to give him a gun because...<modsnip> But MOO mostly because as parents they wanted to give a present he really loved.
MOO they were naive in that they could indulge in violent rhetoric with their immature teen, provide killing power and support not following rules generally without creating a extremely dangerous situation.

And MOO the gun might have been in part to try and keep an increasingly alienated Ethan engaged with them, but they disregarded others safety negligently.

 

[Cool Cats]

MOO It was de facto Ethans gun, bought by Dad.
MOO they wanted to give him a gun because...<modsnip>. But MOO mostly because as parents they wanted to give a present he really loved.
MOO they were naive in that they could indulge in violent rhetoric with their immature teen, provide killing power and support not following rules generally without creating a extremely dangerous situation.

And MOO the gun might have been in part to try and keep an increasingly alienated Ethan engaged with them, but they disregarded others safety negligently.

Shooting sports were a family hobby.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

Dangerous people do not have to be psychopaths.

IMO, since the parents would not make sure their son was safe (or at least would not tell the school about it), this was a reasonable CPS call. In addition, it was a reason to call an emergency CSE meeting to get the child assessed to see if he had a disability interfering with his ability to get an education.

IMO the school neglected to make sure the shooters educational needs were being met by failing to do those two things: call CPS for an investigation of possible medical neglect by the parents, and call an emergency meeting to immediately assess if he needed accommodations to get an appropriate education.

And, once CPS is informed, that does not mean the school just waits for them to fix the problem. They still have their own Special Education steps to take to assess the child.

It gets on my nerves when it seems to me that schools want to be the last resort, not an agency that can act first, perhaps at the same time as other institutions. It seems obvious that there are possible child neglect issues, possible child legal conduct issues, possible parent legal conduct issues, and even possible societal issues which the school can’t control. But there are well-established things the school can do, and it seems to me that there is no reason not to do them immediately, not wait to see if the other systems help first.

(I will reserve my opinions about whether or not the school made legal mistakes until I know more; my opinion is evolving.)

Agree, I just listen to a youtube video someone posted here made by someone who studies school shootings. He had some things wrong in regards to the school , thought the school had knowledge of the video and journals which they did not but I thought he made some good points. One being with the previous day search for ammunition, doesn’t that lead to asking do you have a gun, where is the gun, why were you searching for ammunition and linking it to that morning's drawing.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Shooting sports were a family hobby.

Jail is the new family gathering spot.

 

[10ofRods]

MOO It was de facto Ethans gun, bought by Dad.
MOO they wanted to give him a gun because...<modsnip>. But MOO mostly because as parents they wanted to give a present he really loved.
MOO they were naive in that they could indulge in violent rhetoric with their immature teen, provide killing power and support not following rules generally without creating a extremely dangerous situation.

And MOO the gun might have been in part to try and keep an increasingly alienated Ethan engaged with them, but they disregarded others safety negligently.

It's illegal to give a gun to a minor in Michigan. A person can supervise the use of a gun by a minor while hunting or at the shooting range. To actually give a kid a gun is a big no-no.

I don't think they were naive at all. They are malignant.

 

[borndem]

Maybe he was laying the ground for an insanity defense. He didn't take the help when he was offered it.

I don't see him thinking that deeply about it... He may have thought he was on some kind of "mission," when he wrote, "The thoughts won't stop, help me"... I really don't know what to think about this -- SMH.

I do think, however, that we will see that phrase repeated at trial or during a discussion about his defense, etc. For a young person to take a loaded gun to school, tuck it away in the restroom, then go and get it and start shooting, he did some thinking about it, and made his choice -- pre-planning and deciding something like, today-is-the-day.
When his parents said that Ethan should go back to class, instead of going home, he could have asked to go home with them -- but he did not. <sigh>

 

[Wild Rose]

Did the time of the event coincide with the countdown clock? I would think getting pulled out of class, having parents called in, being questioned might have been stressful. Also thinking that maybe your plans that day might be thwarted by a search? Did he wait for the time later because of the clock?

 

[SuziQ]

I think laying blame on the parents of children who break the law has to be applied across the board, or not at all. Everyone who has raised a 15 year old child knows that parents know almost nothing about what their children are thinking at that age. I don't think the parents had any idea what their son was thinking or feeling about life at school.

After the shooting they noticed that the gun was missing, not before. No one at the school told them that they thought their son was going to shoot up the school, and it doesn't look like it occurred to the parents until after it happened.

I also take issue with the fact that the child is charged as an adult, meaning he had the ability to form the intent to commit the criminal act in the same way as an adult, but at the same time the child was so young that his parents should have managed him better. Which is it? Was he thinking as an adult, or did he still require parental intervention for guidance, supervision and mental health care?

I get that you want to defend this (can't type what I want to call him) and his parents. Imo, all of them are narcissist bullies. Me, me, me. I just can't with these people. Imo. Ethan was beyond help a long time ago. I do not care that he gets help. I want him to be locked up for life. I hope as many charges are thrown at them as possible. Stack and stack those charges.

Now the people, Imo, that should get our first concern are the dead children, their families, and the over 1000 children that were terrorized.

Good riddance to Ethan and his parents.

Moo.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

John Kelly, profiler, covered the case (source approved, per mod).

I thought it was interesting how he said once the shooter start spreading rumors, talking about it to other kids in the school then he feels obligated to go through with it or he will be ridiculed. If the reporting is accurate that the kids did know, parents did keep children home from school that day, I can’t wrap my head around nobody saying anything to authorities. Mr. Kelly did talk about there should be an anonymous way for people to report suspected activity/rumors, to my knowledge there already is. I think he had a few facts wrong though, the school was not aware of the journals and the video that Ethan made, that was discovered after the shootings.

 

[borndem]

Agree. The words and the phrases used by both the sheriff and the prosecutor in describing what they know, are very definitive. I have thoughts about exactly how much the parents knew and when.

Curious about electronic evidence. Was there any recovered from Ethan and Jennifer's visit to the gun range? What did that show?

moo

My thoughts, too -- did they use targets? If so, what were they? Rabbits, deer, birds, ducks (with a pistol??) -- or were the targets people, like at a LE shooting range?

 

[Cool Cats]

Jail is the new family gathering spot.

According to sheriff there is no chance they will meet up even though they are all in the same jail. Men and women are separate and juveniles are kept separate.

No family gatherings at the jail. Sheriff didn't say whether or not they can write each other. As far as I know the judge would have to rule that they have no communication for them not to be able to write letters.

 

[steeltowngirl]

According to sheriff there is no chance they will meet up even though they are all in the same jail. Men and women are separate and juveniles are kept separate.

No family gatherings at the jail. Sheriff didn't say whether or not they can write each other. As far as I know the judge would have to rule that they have no communication for them not to be able to write letters.

 

[borndem]

Our school has lockers but very few students use them because they don’t have time between classes. It’s the same today for my grandsons as it was for my children when they were in high school.

Same for me and most of my friends -- 'way back when -- in H.S. we had lockers, with locks, but we still carried everything because our classes were all over the place, and we didn't have time. I had a locker when I was a freshman (of course), and it was located behind the stage in our auditorium -- You can imagine how often I used that locker. SMH.

 

[fr brown]

I don't see him thinking that deeply about it... He may have thought he was on some kind of "mission," when he wrote, "The thoughts won't stop, help me"... I really don't know what to think about this -- SMH.

I do think, however, that we will see that phrase repeated at trial or during a discussion about his defense, etc. For a young person to take a loaded gun to school, tuck it away in the restroom, then go and get it and start shooting, he did some thinking about it, and made his choice -- pre-planning and deciding something like, today-is-the-day.
When his parents said that Ethan should go back to class, instead of going home, he could have asked to go home with them -- but he did not. <sigh>

I think the parents were going back to work.

 

[MimosaMornings]

I think the parents were going back to work.

So both parents left school and went directly back to work?
Lightbulb didn’t go off in their head?
New gun, looking up ammo, violent concerning drawing...”Honey, go by the house and check on Ethan’s gun on your way back to work, okay?”

 

[Ruminations]

I was talking about why they didn’t check his backpack before sending him back to class. But as far as making him leave the school, my understanding is that it was to for him to get counseling, not as a punishment. And due to his violent drawings and how the day turned out I think it would have been a good idea.

Agree.

I do not think the following minimizes the the parents’ neglectful and allegedly criminal behavior.

The school’s responsibility to respond to the shooters cry for help did not end after the school asked the parents to take the lead on this. Many parents would rather get their own medical and/or educational assessments done. Especially medical are far more commonly done by family because medical conditions may not be disabling once treated. But just like the school should not have just sent the boy back to class if he were coughing, bright red from fever and extremely fatigued. The school saw symptoms. The parents would not get them assessed. The school should have done as much interviewing and evaluating the child as they could without parental consent, and kept him right next to an adult without punishing him, being that the parents would not take him to a doctor.

(On the other hand, if the school was just trying to effect an informal suspension, the school was inappropriate. The point should have been to have the parents evaluate the troubling behavior .)

 

[fr brown]

So both parents left school and went directly back to work?
Lightbulb didn’t go off in their head?
New gun, looking up ammo, violent concerning drawing...”Honey, go by the house and check on Ethan’s gun on your way back to work, okay?”

I read that the parents refused to take their son with them and both went back to work. The school didn't want to send the kid off-campus to be home on his own (or go wherever). I'm sure there were liability concerns as well as concerns about the kid's mental state.

Apparently the whole family was intoxicated with guns so they were all in the throes of that particular mental illness.

 

[LMDlong]

I recall reading that it took a bit of time for the parents to show up for the meeting at the school that morning. So much time that Ethan asked to work on his science homework. Was he allowed to go get his book bag at that point? I am wondering if he hid the gun while he was retrieving the book bag OR did he retrieve the book bag to have the gun during the meeting? I still have so many questions about what happened before the event and why his parents didn't take the schools suggestions and concerns seriously.

I agree with you . So many questions still need addressed. I was searching for answers and found that the school is having a third party probe done .