Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #141

[Tiff23fr]

I agree the victims are two innocent teens. I feel if the lens is flipped to the perpetrator of the crime, that could be where illegal activity exists. It is unknown to us at this time if the perp was into any illegal activities such as CSAM, drugs, etc. If for example someone became aware of something that could be a tip based on a conversation while exchanging illegal materials or products, that could be where the individual may have concerns in coming forward.

I hope that makes sense. I absolutely see where you are coming from and just wanted to offer an example of what can hold witnesses back. If it was something such as CSAM and the individual is a married individual with a family, he would need to weigh his conscience between what is right in coming forward and the potential impacts to his marriage and family. From the outside looking in, we can see the right answer. It can be much harder to see if you are the one whose life can be significantly altered.

ETA: I am not downing LE’s approach. I am offering a general perspective.

A quick example that just came to mind is in the S Morphew case. The individual she had been having an affair with didn’t come forward from my understanding. He was found out later in the investigation. As a married man with children, it goes to show self-preservation kicking in rather than reaching out to authorities with information.

Sheriffs found out about the affair when they were looking into Suzanne's disappearance in November last year, but it's unclear how.
They then went to Libler and asked him about the affair and he asked if he was a target in the investigation.

Suzanne Morphew spent the afternoon before she vanished texting her married-father-of-six lover | Daily Mail Online

 

[HistoryNut]

In a recent podcast episode on True Crime Garage, Joseph Scott Morgan also expresses frustration/bewilderment over basic information not being released to the public. Specifically, he mentions manner of death and, IIRC, additional audio. He says, it's understandable to hold onto that information for a couple to a few days. However, after that you release it to the public to get their help.

IMOO ISP either has something substantial OR very little.

 

[sandy_80]

Yeah, that was probably me, sorry--I thought it was a significant point. At the risk of boring people (and irritating the other user with whom I had the discussion), my basic ideas (MHO!) are: BG at 5'8" to 5'10" and maybe 200 pounds looks like a fairly accurate estimate, just to my own eye. And I agree completely that he had "things" under his jacket, things he planned to use in a crime that day. In the photos, IMO, BG looks like he's big in the trunk and somewhat slim in the legs.

I don't think KAK is likely to be BG; I think if the police had even a hint of that, they'd have arrested him on the CP immediately just to keep him under wraps. But after disagreeing at first, I'm now fairly sure, MHO, that KAK *could* be BG based on his size in the now-famous "Hoover Dam" photo (it's several pages back in the discussion if you haven't seen it.) The kid with his dad at the Dam in that photo is right around the size estimates, *IMO* and this is just MOO, of 5'8" to 5'10" and 180-200 pounds.

One user said KAK was "morbidly obese" and I agree he may be at the 2020 booking photo. (I think the kid has all the signs of high-dose prednisone use in that booking photo, JMHO but I've seen many dozens of patients who looked like that because of prednisone.) In the Hoover Dam photo, doing the calcs for 5'8" and 200 pounds equals a BMI of 30.4; the lower limit for "obese" is 30. If he were 5'10" and 200 pounds, BMI would be 27.8 and he'd be "overweight" by federal standards, not obese.

So I'm sorry to bore you with this, Sandy, but I think it's somewhat important. All of this looks to my eye, MOOooo, that KAK certainly could be BG, based on the one known photo (the Hoover Dam one with his dad) closest to February 2017. I still don't think it is likely he IS BG, just because the police obviously didn't suspect him of it and I'm sure they took a strong look at that possibility. But IMO he certainly COULD be. Just MHO. And again JMHO, it's worth considering. Thanks! --ken

hello ken.. you are not boring me ..I think I've seen that famous photo (he still looks very round here ) ..you know about the power of suggestion ?
whenever LE would bring up a new name..you can see BG in every suspect ..but I can see what you mean at least the face..
however the new dude isn't BG cause personally ..
BG isn't young
BG isn't tech savvy (kinda of related to first point )..or he would have destroyed phones first ( I know there are always arguments against this and that ) ..
finally, online predators get their kick out of what they are doing...not every sexual predator is a candidate for a psychopath killer which who I think BG is ..this case feels like it's more complicated than a sex crime gone wrong

 

[MistyWaters]

That, to me, sounds like it could be relevant to the murders so I certainly hope they wouldn’t ignore it.
I’m talking unpaid parking tickets and minor drug charges and the like.
I remember LE arrested some guy for murdering his uncle or someone when the guy offered it up in an interview. That was definitely the right thing to do in that circumstance.

This was the case you mention, which I couldn’t find the link earlier. I’d be concerned at the implications of LE committing to ignore other illegal offences brought to light from Delphi tips.

Tip in Delphi Homicides Investigation Leads to Arrest In 2007 Cold Case
“A Logansport man is expected to appear in court Friday after a tip in the Delphi double homicide case led to his confession in a 2007 murder, WLFI reports. Kevin S. Sellers, 39, is being held without bond at the Cass County Jail, facing a Level 1 felony charge in the murder of his uncle, 50-year-old David E. Sellers, the news source reports. According to WLFI, a probable cause affidavit and murder charge were filed against Sellers Thursday, a day after he was brought in for questioning on an unrelated matter…..”

 

[Lavender Moon]

BTK was somewhat different in that no database of familial DNA was used in order to make a family tree. They already had their POI and obtained a DNA sample willing offered by his daughter. However, they had him dead to rights before that. It was just additional confirmation.

Thank you for clarifying, GoBuckeyes.

 

[JnRyan]

Yeah, that was probably me, sorry--I thought it was a significant point. At the risk of boring people (and irritating the other user with whom I had the discussion), my basic ideas (MHO!) are: BG at 5'8" to 5'10" and maybe 200 pounds looks like a fairly accurate estimate, just to my own eye. And I agree completely that he had "things" under his jacket, things he planned to use in a crime that day. In the photos, IMO, BG looks like he's big in the trunk and somewhat slim in the legs.

I don't think KAK is likely to be BG; I think if the police had even a hint of that, they'd have arrested him on the CP immediately just to keep him under wraps. But after disagreeing at first, I'm now fairly sure, MHO, that KAK *could* be BG based on his size in the now-famous "Hoover Dam" photo (it's several pages back in the discussion if you haven't seen it.) The kid with his dad at the Dam in that photo is right around the size estimates, *IMO* and this is just MOO, of 5'8" to 5'10" and 180-200 pounds.

One user said KAK was "morbidly obese" and I agree he may be at the 2020 booking photo. (I think the kid has all the signs of high-dose prednisone use in that booking photo, JMHO but I've seen many dozens of patients who looked like that because of prednisone.) In the Hoover Dam photo, doing the calcs for 5'8" and 200 pounds equals a BMI of 30.4; the lower limit for "obese" is 30. If he were 5'10" and 200 pounds, BMI would be 27.8 and he'd be "overweight" by federal standards, not obese.

So I'm sorry to bore you with this, Sandy, but I think it's somewhat important. All of this looks to my eye, MOOooo, that KAK certainly could be BG, based on the one known photo (the Hoover Dam one with his dad) closest to February 2017. I still don't think it is likely he IS BG, just because the police obviously didn't suspect him of it and I'm sure they took a strong look at that possibility. But IMO he certainly COULD be. Just MHO. And again JMHO, it's worth considering. Thanks! --ken

That says it about as well as it can be stated. He COULD be. What was the body type of the killer in the photo? Average looking but with more than one layer? Or an overweight guy with just a couple of oversize garments concealing his body type? KAK COULD be, but I don't believe he is either.

 

[Boxer]

(fumblefingers EBM)
One of the police sources said--IIRC from a press conference but I haven't heard it in a long time--that an Amber Alert was reserved for children taken by a known or suspected person, not just a general "young person missing" situation. To me, that sounds a lot like bureaucratic whitewash for "we really probably should have done that but 'my bad.'" Just MHO on that interpretation.

Agree.
Generally a car needs to be seen, but seeing the kids is also a reason.
In other words it's open to judgement.
All that falling over themselves to impress everyone how MUCH they care come from this, calling off of the search that night, also of true the letting of dogs go before the murderers exit path.

 

[Yemelyan]

MOO billboards were partly from belated police energy, because the ISP declined to issue an Amber Alert at the time requested on 2/13 by the Sheriff.
With no leads a transient, truck driver, or someone on the road all good ideas.

Did the Carroll County Sheriff's office request an Amber alert for Abby and Libby on the 13th? I had not remembered that they did...

The criteria for Amber Alerts vary from state to state but here are Indiana's:
Amber Alert Plan

1. The child must be under 18;
2. there must be a belief that the child was abducted AND is in danger of serious bodily harm or death;
3. there must be enough descriptive information to believe that a broadcast will help (example would be, make, model, color of abductor's car);
4. the request must be recommended by the law enforcement agency of jurisdiction.

Did they suspect that Abby and Libby had been abducted on the 13th? Again, in my recollection, they did not suspect abduction - they considered a runaway situation and they considered a "lost and injured" situation. TL described being at the fire station command post on the morning of the 14th when the news came in that the girls had been found ("and not to a good end")and his shock at that time that they had not just been lost but had been murdered - in fact, he described the fact that they were found dead instead of recovered living as "a twist." This was in the Down the Hill podcast, right at the end of episode 2: Chapter 2: The Day Delphi Changed - Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders - Omny.fm

 

[minazoe]

ok I don't usually hop on the LE f up bandwagon, BUT they know all the usual suspects out there ..they know who they are..

but using L&A as an excuse to make 13 arrests really does nothing to open the mouths of people who could help.

and a huge mistake to not think they were either kidnapped on the way to being trafficked or possibly lying in a ditch somewhere..( which they were).

I don't think any amber alert would have helped but it shows possibly something wrong with the reaction to their disappearance..somehow disbelief played a factor in a lack of clear thinking..

I feel like they went all Barney Fife spaz attack and unleashed 10 gazillion people into the woods.

I see how it all could happen though, and I understand it,

just my observation.. and all been said before...mOO

 

[Wokesleuth]

ok I don't usually hop on the LE f up bandwagon, BUT they know all the usual suspects out there ..they know who they are..

but using L&A as an excuse to make 13 arrests really does nothing to open the mouths of people who could help.

and a huge mistake to not think they were either kidnapped on the way to being trafficked or possibly lying in a ditch somewhere..( which they were).

I don't think any amber alert would have helped but it shows possibly something wrong with the reaction to their disappearance..somehow disbelief played a factor in a lack of clear thinking..

I feel like they went all Barney Fife spaz attack and unleashed 10 gazillion people into the woods.

I see how it all could happen though, and I understand it,

just my observation.. and all been said before...mOO

It all has been said before but all are great points and logical and should be said in context.
The fact of the matter is we need standardized LE training even in small departments that address the gaps we so often see early on in investigations, irregardless of towns where the mindset typically is "that stuff doesn't happen here" because we simply can not be too prepared.

 

[TXToast]

There was a recent article published in the Seattle Times involving an individual who was recently sentenced to 10 years in a state prison for distributing CSAM. The individual is described as “one of the largest distributors of child *advertiser censored* in Eastern Washington.” One of the things that caught my attention within this article was “the case originated with federal agents in February 2017.” I wonder if L&A’s case is uncovering a widespread CSAM ring? What are your thoughts? Do you think the uncovering of this Washington case was the result of the investigation involving L&A? Just my observation, MOO

Tri-Cities businessman’s ‘secret double life’: One of largest child *advertiser censored* dealers in Eastern Washington

 

[TL4S]

There was a recent article published in the Seattle Times involving an individual who was recently sentenced to 10 years in a state prison for distributing CSAM. The individual is described as “one of the largest distributors of child *advertiser censored* in Eastern Washington.” One of the things that caught my attention within this article was “the case originated with federal agents in February 2017.” I wonder if L&A’s case is uncovering a widespread CSAM ring? What are your thoughts? Do you think the uncovering of this Washington case was the result of the investigation involving L&A? Just my observation, MOO

Tri-Cities businessman’s ‘secret double life’: One of largest child *advertiser censored* dealers in Eastern Washington

My impression from the opening paragraph of the affidavit for the Peru, IN search, was that the FBI brought up KAK to the ISP because he was attempting to communicate with underage girls. To me, that sounded like maybe KAK was already in the FBI's sights, even before Delphi. Possibly back in early 2017 there was a nationwide CSAM sting operation going on? But we still don't know what, if any, links it might have to Delphi. Jmo. It's pretty curious, though, with the addition of a-shots inquiries..

 

[Govind]

There was a recent article published in the Seattle Times involving an individual who was recently sentenced to 10 years in a state prison for distributing CSAM. The individual is described as “one of the largest distributors of child *advertiser censored* in Eastern Washington.” One of the things that caught my attention within this article was “the case originated with federal agents in February 2017.” I wonder if L&A’s case is uncovering a widespread CSAM ring? What are your thoughts? Do you think the uncovering of this Washington case was the result of the investigation involving L&A? Just my observation, MOO

Tri-Cities businessman’s ‘secret double life’: One of largest child *advertiser censored* dealers in Eastern Washington

Yes, you are right.

 

[zencompass]

It all has been said before but all are great points and logical and should be said in context.
The fact of the matter is we need standardized LE training even in small departments that address the gaps we so often see early on in investigations, irregardless of towns where the mindset typically is "that stuff doesn't happen here" because we simply can not be too prepared.

Welcome to Websleuths, @Wokesleuth !

Thank you for mentioning the importance of standardized LE training. Excellent point!

 

[Charlot123]

Yeah, that was probably me, sorry--I thought it was a significant point. At the risk of boring people (and irritating the other user with whom I had the discussion), my basic ideas (MHO!) are: BG at 5'8" to 5'10" and maybe 200 pounds looks like a fairly accurate estimate, just to my own eye. And I agree completely that he had "things" under his jacket, things he planned to use in a crime that day. In the photos, IMO, BG looks like he's big in the trunk and somewhat slim in the legs.

I don't think KAK is likely to be BG; I think if the police had even a hint of that, they'd have arrested him on the CP immediately just to keep him under wraps. But after disagreeing at first, I'm now fairly sure, MHO, that KAK *could* be BG based on his size in the now-famous "Hoover Dam" photo (it's several pages back in the discussion if you haven't seen it.) The kid with his dad at the Dam in that photo is right around the size estimates, *IMO* and this is just MOO, of 5'8" to 5'10" and 180-200 pounds.

One user said KAK was "morbidly obese" and I agree he may be at the 2020 booking photo. (I think the kid has all the signs of high-dose prednisone use in that booking photo, JMHO but I've seen many dozens of patients who looked like that because of prednisone.) In the Hoover Dam photo, doing the calcs for 5'8" and 200 pounds equals a BMI of 30.4; the lower limit for "obese" is 30. If he were 5'10" and 200 pounds, BMI would be 27.8 and he'd be "overweight" by federal standards, not obese.

So I'm sorry to bore you with this, Sandy, but I think it's somewhat important. All of this looks to my eye, MOOooo, that KAK certainly could be BG, based on the one known photo (the Hoover Dam one with his dad) closest to February 2017. I still don't think it is likely he IS BG, just because the police obviously didn't suspect him of it and I'm sure they took a strong look at that possibility. But IMO he certainly COULD be. Just MHO. And again JMHO, it's worth considering. Thanks! --ken

KAK and prednisone is possible - we can not see the “buffalo hump”, but the way his shirt looks, it is possible. And yes, with high level of cortisol, you’d expect wide upper body and disproportionately thin legs.

But what is the percentage of people treated with high-prednisone as compared to, say, antipsychotics, or any other drugs causing abdominal obesity? Without a jacket, you’d see a normal person with big girth; that girth requires buying outerwear a couple of sizes larger, to “tuck in” the belly fat. What I want to say - looking at BG, we can not tell whether he has “buffalo hump”, or “abdominal obesity”, or he simply has wrapped a rope around his waist. Either case would require a larger jacket, producing what we see on the video - disproportionately thin legs.

I can’t assess his height and weight because I don’t know what is under his jacket. Could be 5’6” and 160, more likely, 5’8” and 180, but we all could be wrong. I don’t think he is a tall man with huge legs; this I don’t see.

 

[Charlot123]

BBM; we've often discussed the fact that BG made Libby uncomfortable enough to grab some video of him. She was uncomfortable, but not enough so to call 911 or scream for help. Your idea, that BG was being casual and trying to keep from scaring the girls into action, makes perfect sense, especially knowing that the last part of the bridge was in such good shape.

JMHO but I can't help thinking that those girls might still be with us if one of the girls had a "scream alarm," the things you can keep in a pocket, that make a loud siren whooping sound if you press a button. We bought a couple of cases of them at work 20 years ago when there was some street crime near our workplace, and I thought they were a dumb idea at the time. This is NOT the first time I've been entirely wrong about something. Hitting an alarm like that might have been embarrassing ("Yes, I'm scared of you and that's why I triggered an alarm!") but that's better than what happened. :-(

Here is what bothers me. No one saw the girls on the bridge. How come we are so sure that there were just two of them on the trails and MHB, that no friend joined them, after all? All recreations show just two, but why is it implausible that they met with a friend, or someone?

All photos that are made are of the bridge, Abby and BG, but how do we know that no one was standing behind Libby when she was taking the photos/videos? Imagine Libby’s feeling if someone (“a friend”) was standing behind her, Abby has almost crossed the bridge, and that oddball BG was somewhere in the middle. That explains why Libby didn’t yell, nor called 911. Among three people, she’d feel protected.

Now, there is no evidence of the third voice, but if the tape is indeed short, and barely audible, it could be. Remember how they said that one girl could’ve escaped? Maybe BG let everyone but Libby go, and someone else ran away, but Libby stayed?

This person is silent now because of fear (what was done to the girls), and also, shame since they abandoned their friends.

Is it plausible?

 

[Charlot123]

I agree completely; one other category (my own) is people who aren't curious about what familial DNA would show. I know pretty much where my ancestors came from, and don't have any real interest in anything DNA could tell me on that account. All of your listed groups (plus me) aren't going to have DNA submitted to a commercial service--though some of us might have involuntary DNA in the he criminal database (thanks, yemelyan, for the explanation!)

I suspect there are also some other aspects that I can't guess at: something like, people born and raised in New England are much more likely to submit DNA and include in LE-searchable databases, than people born and raised in New Mexico. Or, say, short people vs tall people, or Jewish people vs Methodists. People with college degrees in sociology vs math majors--I'm guessing there are a lot of demographic factors that affect voluntary DNA submission for criminal searches, and I certainly don't know what they are. I'm sure some people are trying to understand all this.

You know, it can even be something ironic. For a while (I would not remember the years, but it was discussed in 2015, and even 2016, and maybe, later), commercial companies did not accept DNA from several states. I think it had to do with states’ laws, that later changed. I’d venture to guess, NY was one of them, because the common advise was “to drive to CT and spit in a test tube”, or maybe, it was MD. Anyhow, after a while, DNA testing became accessible to everyone, but if most people are like myself, and if I lived in NY at that time, I’d be too lazy to drive to acquaintances in CT for a 23@me kit (sent at their address). I assume that NY might have joined the game later, and by 2020, commercial DNA testing stopped being a fad, so some of New Yorkers might have never bothered to check their ethnicity.

 

[livstabler]

Post #222, thread 10 on 2/24/17. I’m wowed again. NewMama found a concealed carry jacket that looks nearly identical to BG’s jacket. When I clicked on the link however it said ‘page not found’. Of course I’m not at all surprised as most of what a lot of people posted back then, links & such, are no longer available for view.
Anyway I think NM was really on to something.

Not saying this is thee jacket, but omg look at all the stuff you can fit inside these things!

 

[Barbieshell]

Not saying this is thee jacket, but omg look at all the stuff you can fit inside these things!

Holy crap that's a lot of stuff . If BG had something like that on then it could've easily have contained a full murder kit FFS.

 

[Wokesleuth]

Not saying this is thee jacket, but omg look at all the stuff you can fit inside these things!

I have always felt it looked as though BG had a concealed weapon in the jacket.