IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, West Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 #4

[Govind]

All right....I hope we can all agree that Paul Bonacci is definitely NOT Johnny.....and neither is Jeff Gannon.

Paul Bonacci is definitely NOT Johnny.....and neither is Jeff Gannon, But conditions apply! Those who believe that Mr. Wallace went by tram can accept your statement. I believe that Mr. Wallace wanted to kill wife , but I do not think he had so much energry inside his body, and I think , Mr. Wallace did not travel in tram that night. Similarly , your statement may be correct but not definitely.

 

[Govind]

Turns out you were right on the money. Here's an article from October 82 where police specified the man asked for directions to 86th Street in Clive (which turned into a different number in West Des Moines). As you say, a busy commercial street and it makes sense for someone out of town to want to get there.

It's also clear that the police were primarily interested in him to see if he had also spotted the silver Ford Fairmont, which does seem to be the main suspect here. The witness, a neighbor (Smith) who heard the slamming door and saw the car speed away, without any sign of Johnny, is the only one to have seen the actual abduction site.

The account of a "tall man" emerging from between two houses and walking towards Johnny is more elusive; here is an article from November 82 where the Gosches' PI Whelan mentions him. Further on, in March of 83 it is implied that the witness who saw the "tall man" was not Rossi (the adult who was at the dropsite at Ashworth and talked to Blue Car Guy at Johnny's request), nor brothers B (later referenced as separate witnesses seeing Johnny at Marcourt on their way back from Ashworth). That leaves paperboy Mike S (who saw Johnny talk to Blue Car Guy at Ashworth) but that doesn't seem probable as his route didn't take him up to Marcourt. I honestly suspect it is a mix-up starting with this article from two days after the abduction - where a paperboy (almost certainly Mike S) says he saw Johnny talk to a man at 42nd and Marcourt. This seems to be a distorted version of his documented sighting of Johnny talking to Blue Car Guy at Ashworth (complete with police sketch), and may have taken on its own life from there. Either way, I can't find much else on him.

Later testimonies, all filtered through Noreen Gosch and her PIs, add a bunch of stuff to this, none of it reliable. The paperboys statement that Johnny thought Blue Car Guy was "weird" (attested in 82) evolves to him being "scared" and "going home". Brothers B saying they saw Johnny sitting in his cart at Marcourt (presumably to sort his papers) evolves to "sitting slumped over" implying something was off. And poor neighbor Smith, whose simple testimony of seeing a silver car drive away evolves to him seeing the same blue car from Ashworth (1985) and then seeing the entire abduction complete with tazer (2005). Much of this is then repeated as fact in media and articles discussing the case. Chris Birge, who lived in the neighborhood, says Smith denied saying the stuff Noreen attributes to him.

It's easy to see why all the focus landed on the blue car. It had police sketches, it was constantly referenced in newspapers, and after a while you get the impression that Noreen's PIs wanted it to be the abducting car. All other strange sightings (woman taking photographs in the neighborhood, etc) are later and comes from Noreen's PI's investigations.

Of the later developments, the only one I give credence to is that of "Yellow Bag" who worked as a paper boy at the time. His claim that a man in a white Ford Fairmont tried to get him into his car the winter before Johnny's abduction, and that he later saw that man with an employee at the newspaper, Millhouse (a known pedophile).

In my view the likeliest scenario becomes this:

* Johnny leaves home with his cart, goes to pick up papers at Ashworth.
* Blue Car Guy is lost trying to get to 86th Street in Clive, stays near a paper drop at 42nd and Ashworth to find someone awake to ask. Mike S, another paperboy, sees this.
* Blue Car Guy asks Johnny for directions to 86th, then drives off, though whatever Johnny says isn't useful.
* Blue Car Guy returns to the dropsite, asks Johnny again, now in a rush and agitated. Johnny calls for Rossi, an adult there to pick up papers for his kid, to help him. Rossi gives the man directions, after which Blue Car Guy speeds off and takes a left on 39th, trying to get north to Clive.
* Johnny walks his cart up to 42nd and Marcourt where he preps his papers for delivery. Brothers B, who are delivering further north, walks past Johnny while he's working.
* As Johnny is prepping papers, a silver Ford Fairmont drives up next to him. Whatever happens, it ends with Johnny going into the car (perhaps at gunpoint, or dragged by his bag), and the car speeding off.
* An hour later, the disappearance is noticed.

O.K. But if it was really a kidnap, his visit to his mother is almost impossible. Let us forget this too. His mother says he visited her in her home once. I think, if I am in her position , I will fear to open the door for unidentified man. Don't you fear to open the door for unidentified man? If yes, the paperboy was not at all kidnapped.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

O.K. But if it was really a kidnap, his visit to his mother is almost impossible. Let us forget this too. His mother says he visited her in her home once. I think, if I am in her position , I will fear to open the door for unidentified man. Don't you fear to open the door for unidentified man? If yes, the paperboy was not at all kidnapped.

Well, I don't believe he visited her. My guess is Johnny died shortly after being abducted. Noreen likely made up the the tale of the visit.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

OK, I keep going back to the "tall man" walking out from between two houses. Who saw him and where? Turns out he is there from the earliest news reports, though always in murky circumstances.

Des Moines Register Sept. 6 '82:

The description was provided by a 15-year-old friend of Gosch - also a carrier - who told the police the man had driven past the boys three times and twice had asked directions to the same place.
The 15-year-old, whose frightened mother asked that his name not be used, reported that he and Gosch had picked up their Sunday newspapers at Forty-second Street and Ashworth Road and then had parted. Minutes later, he said, he spotted a man wearing a baseball cap near Forty-second and Marcourt Lane, and the man was apparently talking to Gosch.
[...]
The 15-year-old told his parents he could not determine, at that distance, whether it was the man from the car. He knew Gosch had his dog with him, so he listened. The dog wasn't barking.
Sensing no immediate danger, the 15-year-old walked on. He didn't see his friend again.

This is Mike S, paperboy, the only witness mentioned in the article. The description he gave of Blue Car Guy was made into a sketch, and in it BCG was wearing a baseball cap. The question is, could Mike S see as far as Marcourt from Ashworth?

Des Moines Register Sept. 7 '82:

Young Gosch had picked up the Sunday morning papers at Forty-Second Street and Ashworth Road before 6 a.m. Sunday. He met a 15-year-old carrier there, and they parted to deliver the papers.
The 15-year-old told his mother that he saw Gosch talking to a man near Forty-Second and Marcourt Lane. The carrier said the man was bigger than Gosch, who is 5 feet, 7 inches tall and weighs 140 pounds. The boy has not been seen since then.
The 15-year-old has provided the police with a description of the man, and a sketch was drawn. Police Monday again declined to release that drawing. "We're just not confident it's a likeness," the DCI's Meyer said, adding, "Not that it may not be, but rather than confuse people," authorities have decided against making the sketch public for now.
West Des Moines Police Lt. Raymond Fidler said the man in the drawing may have been only a drunk driver asking for directions.

Here is where it gets confusing. Again we have Johnny talking to Tall Man at Marcourt, but all other details (the sketch, drunk driver asking for directions) match Blue Car Guy.

An article from Oct. 1 has the first appearance of witness Smith and the silver car at Marcourt. Blue car is also mentioned, but nothing about the "tall man". Another one from Oct. 26 mentions both witnesses to Blue Car Guy (Mike S, John Rossi) as well as Smith and the silver car, but again, no tall man.

Des Moines Register Nov. 25 '82:

A second man who emerged from the shadows and was seen near the parked car by the two witnesses may have been working with the mystery man, Whelan said. He said the second man was seen walking with young Gosch as the boy started out on his paper route. Police had reported the presence of a second man earlier.
Saying the witnesses "haven't told us anything they haven't told the police," Whelan speculated that the mystery man in the car may have tried to signal the second man "before he drove off."

Now Tall Man returns, for the first time described as "emerging from the shadows", a phrasing that will last. It is also attributed to PI Whelan rather than police. Two witnesses are mentioned, but we have never had any indication that John Rossi had seen any such person. Also, while the police had sought BCG as a witness, hoping he had seen the silver car, their real target, we here see the Gosches' PIs begin pointing fingers at him as a perpetrator.

Des Moines Register Mar. 6 '83:

Another witness - one of the four police have been able to find - said he saw a man walk out of the shadows at Forty-second Street, near the paper drop, and talk to Gosch.

Same description as before. The sentence implies Mike S as the reporter, but now he walks out near Ashworth, not Marcourt as the early reports said. Another article from Sept. 4 '83 omits Tall Guy altogether, while giving plenty of details about Blue Car Guy and including the silver car. It's remarkable just how thin the info is on Tall Guy. The police never asks for info about him, no one ever gives a description beyond the baseball cap (which, again, Mike S placed on BCG on his sketch).

In a Senate hearing Noreen enclosed a map based on the theories of her PIs. There Tall Guy follows Johnny around the corner into Marcourt, but the brothers B passed by on their way to Ashworth and saw Johnny sitting there (according to Chris Birge, they said hi to him and he responded). There was no Tall Guy there.

In Sarah DiMeo's podcast Faded Out, she interviews Mike S's brother Matt and specifically asks him about Tall Guy, but Matt S says he only heard his brother talk about BCG, no tall guy.

So here's what I think: With only Mike S as an identified witness, the newspapers separated the two appearances of BCG into two (potential) characters, one when he first appeared, talked to Johnny and drove off, and another when he returned and talked to first Johnny and then John Rossi. Matt S mentions that Mike spoke to BCG himself, if briefly. PI Whelan found this early confused account and weaved it into his BCG-centric theory.

And like so many things it became embedded in the lore. As early as 1983 we see Noreen's PIs suggest the silver car was actually blue car, which is where we get "blue Ford Fairmont" from - the silver car was always described as a Ford Fairmont, while the brand of the blue car was never confirmed (I seem to remember John Rossi thinking it could have been a Mercury, but I can't find that).

But if Tall Guy actually existed? And Mike S actually saw him up at Marcourt with Johnny, and it wasn't a big misunderstanding? If so, I'd lay bets he walked past Johnny as he sat sorting papers, got into his parked Ford Fairmont and commenced to abduct Johnny.

 

[Lavender Moon]

Well, I don't believe he visited her. My guess is Johnny died shortly after being abducted. Noreen likely made up the the tale of the visit.

I also guess that he may have died shortly after his abduction. I do wonder if, rather than concocting a story about that nocturnal visit, perhaps Noreen truly believed her son
came to see her. MOO

 

[scruffydog]

Well, I don't believe he visited her. My guess is Johnny died shortly after being abducted. Noreen likely made up the the tale of the visit.

I believe she either dreamed the visit (I've had some horrifyingly real dreams myself), or made it up to keep the case in the public eye. This is not to say that I don't feel terrible for her, which I certainly do,.

 

[Lavender Moon]

I believe she either dreamed the visit (I've had some horrifyingly real dreams myself), or made it up to keep the case in the public eye. This is not to say that I don't feel terrible for her, which I certainly do,.

I feel very bad for her. Perhaps it was a vivid dream. I'd like to think she didn't make up the incident.

 

[Markybug]

The newspaper theory is a good place to look closer imo.

 

[cherrymeg]

I feel very bad for her. Perhaps it was a vivid dream. I'd like to think she didn't make up the incident.

Could someone having been messing with her? I can’t imagine what losing a child does to you let alone when it’s public and you probably get all sorts of calls and letters or psychics claiming to have answers.
I thought pedophile rings or an island for them was mostly a scary story or an urban legend. When you find out their is some truth to the myths it’s disturbing. You look back and think you were lucky not to be kidnapped because not all pedophiles or most don’t stand out. The worst used to be someone you trusted but realizing those pervs could organize and still be successful and above the law is another level of scary.
Johnny Gosch’s mom said things that stretched belief but maybe weren’t completely untrue. Maybe she was desperate for answers. I would be. I don’t think her son is alive but the not knowing has to be worse than anything. She kept his name and picture up. If she tells the world her son as an adult came to her door let the killer prove otherwise.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Could someone having been messing with her? I can’t imagine what losing a child does to you let alone when it’s public and you probably get all sorts of calls and letters or psychics claiming to have answers.

It's not impossible. There were pranksters and disturbed people calling, writing and tormenting the Gosches since day one. There were at least two fake ransom requests. With the case being as high-profile as it was, it's not surprising, but what I think spurred it on even more was that Noreen Gosch obviously (and publicly) seemed to believe pretty much all of it. Then came the conspiracy mongers who kept giving false hope to the parents. Some of them were likely true believers, others con artists or grifters.

I do, however, believe that Noreen made up the visit, and I do so for two reasons. First, I've read the entire testimony she gave at the civil trial in 1999 (where she first revealed the visit). Second, I've read her book, published shortly after. It's the context that makes me skeptical.

At the civil trial, she took the stand in support of plaintiff Bonacci, the man who claimed to have participated in the kidnapping under duress, and was suing for hundreds of millions in damages from multiple defendants. She basically gives the account of the kidnapping that she heard from Bonacci, and when asked if she had any support for it, she says "yes, my son visited me a few years back and confirmed it all".

And he began telling me what had happened to him. And he told me the exact same story that Paul Bonacci had told me in prison. I know that Paul's telling the truth. And I know that my son fell victim to the very same organization that affected
and almost destroyed Paul's life and the lives of many other young people.

The ending of her testimony is what convinces me it's fiction:

A. Yes. I have a one hour special coming up with the national network. We have inves.t igated, we have talked to so far 35 victims of this said organization that took my son and is responsible for what happened to Paul and they can verify everything that has happened. And this story will be broadcast in the next few months. We're still working on some of the details.

Q. ABC News?

A. Yes. And it is our hope following this story that we will be able to get senate hearings. because it goes that high and that deep.

Q. Did you want to tell more about what it involves ?

A. What this story ~~

Q. Under oath?

A. -- involves is an elaborate function, I will say, that was an offshoot of a government program. The MK Ultra program was developed in the 1950s by the CIA. It was used to help spy on other countries during the cold war because they felt that the other countries were spying on us.

It was very successful. They could do it very well. Well, then there was a man by the name of Michael Aquino. He was in the military. He had top Pentagon clearance. He was a pedophile. He was a Satanist. He^s founded the Temple of Set,

And he was also a very close friend of Anton LaVey. The two of them were very active inritualistic sexual abuse. And they deferred funding from this government program to use this experimentation upon children.

Where they deliberately split off the personalities of these children into multiples so that when they're questioned or put under oath or questioned under lie detector, that unless the operator knows how to question a multiple personality disorder they turn up with no evidence.

They use these kids to sexually compromise politicians or anyone else they wish to have control of. This sounds so far out and so bizarre I had trouble accepting it in the beginning myself until I was presented with the data. We have the proof. In black and white.

She's obviously pushing something here, and I don't doubt that she actually believes in these conspiracy theories, but Johnny's "confirmation" seems less about Johnny himself and more about supporting Bonacci's narrative (about the "organization").

I actually wish I believed she was deceived or dreamt it. She has obviously been through something I wouldn't wish on anyone. But she is also deep into the conspiracy swamp now, and has been for decades.

 

[cnmccarthy]

The newspaper theory is a good place to look closer imo.

It bothers me so much. These newspaper employees had the perfect opportunity and victim pool.

 

[TheHauntedOne]

Has anyone ever brought up John Norman or Paske in connection to his (and the other boys) disappearances?

 

[FergusMcDuck]

I haven’t looked at the list of abductions in awhile, was Allen the last one during that time? I like your thoughts on this. I could definitely see how that could be possible.

Of the actual Des Moines disappearances, Allen was the last (at least of the ones usually connected to Gosch). The failed attempts listed all post-dated it.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Has anyone ever brought up John Norman or Paske in connection to his (and the other boys) disappearances?

I looked into this, and there appears to be no real connections between Norman/Paske and the Gosch case. There are some conspiracy sites that try to make it a thing, but they're mostly basing it on conjecture and some statements from con artist Paul Bonacci. There's apparently a whole thing where they were supposed to be part of some Chicago branch of the Franklin thing, with John Wayne Gacy of all people (even less evidence of him being involved, but that hasn't stopped the conspiracy theorists).

It's funny, but just as I'm writing this I saw that apparently Paul Bonacci was the step-brother of one of Gacy's victims (Timothy McCoy). If true, it's nothing more than trivia, but I suppose it'll encourage the conspiracy theorists even more, sadly.

 

[shanda3434]

I recently drove by all of the locations that the 3 Des Moines boys went missing, and Johnnys house. I was trying to see how close these places were to each other. I didn’t learn much about Eugene or Marc from that, but I was shocked by how close Johnny went missing to his house. I felt so much energy being on that corner that I had goosebumps and chills the entire time and for about 15 minutes afterwards.

 

[emem1138]

Does anyone think that this case will be 'solved' at least in part? Meaning a body or remains found somewhere or a confession that can be substantiated even a little bit?
I go back and forth on that. I pray for the family's sake--of course.

 

[Cappuccino]

Does anyone think that this case will be 'solved' at least in part? Meaning a body or remains found somewhere or a confession that can be substantiated even a little bit?
I go back and forth on that. I pray for the family's sake--of course.

You never know. There are cases which get solved after decades - Jacob Wetterling, Sharon Marshall for example. All of these cases look unsolvable until the right piece of evidence turns up.

I do think with Johnny Gosch though that if his case is ever solved it will be as part of a series of crimes probably including Eugene Martin and Marc Allen. I think they were taken by the same person. JMO.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

You never know. There are cases which get solved after decades - Jacob Wetterling, Sharon Marshall for example. All of these cases look unsolvable until the right piece of evidence turns up.

I do think with Johnny Gosch though that if his case is ever solved it will be as part of a series of crimes probably including Eugene Martin and Marc Allen. I think they were taken by the same person. JMO.

Agreed. It will be interesting to see where that piece of evidence comes from (if it does). One thing that has always struck me is that the West Des Moines police searched through a list of 5000 silver or white Ford Fairmonts in the state - a massive number, but I wonder if they ever go back to it and check if any name on it has popped up somewhere else.

The likeliest scenario in my mind is that some day someone in the Des Moines area might decide to remodel their basement or dig up an old garden and it will be something akin to the case of Reyna Marroquín.

 

[Ozoner]

Agreed. It will be interesting to see where that piece of evidence comes from (if it does). One thing that has always struck me is that the West Des Moines police searched through a list of 5000 silver or white Ford Fairmonts in the state - a massive number, but I wonder if they ever go back to it and check if any name on it has popped up somewhere else.

The likeliest scenario in my mind is that some day someone in the Des Moines area might decide to remodel their basement or dig up an old garden and it will be something akin to the case of Reyna Marroquín.

This is a very simple case that some people want to complicate with fantasy stories.

Johnny was abducted during the morning hours by an unknown perpetrator who was driving a white or silver Ford Fairmont.

Johnny was most likely taken to a remote location, sexually assaulted, and immediately killed.

Reyna's case was an unusual one; not many killers store a victim's body that way. It is far more likely that Johnny was buried in a random location. He probably won't be found unless the perpetrator is caught somehow—perhaps for a different crime—and leads law enforcement to the body as part of a plea deal.

 

[Phxlana]

Agreed. It will be interesting to see where that piece of evidence comes from (if it does). One thing that has always struck me is that the West Des Moines police searched through a list of 5000 silver or white Ford Fairmonts in the state - a massive number, but I wonder if they ever go back to it and check if any name on it has popped up somewhere else.

The likeliest scenario in my mind is that some day someone in the Des Moines area might decide to remodel their basement or dig up an old garden and it will be something akin to the case of Reyna Marroquín.

What is interesting about this case is the connections. For example look into this.

*Johnny Gosch 13 years old was taken Sep-5-1982.
-3 min from a main highway.
-Taken within 4min walking distance from his home on paper route.
-West Dsm
-Worked for the Dsm register.
- Seen talking to an older male.
-Supposedly another male in foot was also involved while other was in vehicle.

*Eugene Martin 13 years old. Was taken August-12-1984 (707) days between JG abduction.
-5 min from main highway.
-Southside Dsm
-worked for the Dsm register and was delivering newspapers in neighborhood within walking distance from house.
- was seen talking to male on foot.
-connected to Mexico just like JG

*Mark Allen 13 years old. Taken march-29-1986 595 days between Eugene.
- In the same neighborhood as Eugene Martin's abduction. Only 3 min and two block streets to be exact.
-6 min away from main highway
-Southside Dsm
-walked to friends house down the street within distance from his house, same neighborhood as Eugene Martin, almost same street.


*Wilbert Julius Millhouse. 43 years old when arrested.
-Address 2553 Maury Street Des moines.
Southside DSM. Some articles will say his address is 2550,
-14 min drive to Marc Allen.
-14min drive to Eugene Martin
-17min drive to Johnny Gosch
-Newspaper article 11/19/86-
Police have filed six charges against a Des moines man accused of sexually abusing young boys. Sparked interest in the mother of a missing paperboy.
-police wrote letters to parents to warn them their own children may have come into contact with millhouse.
-during the investigation of a suspected pedophile ring officers found the names and telephone numbers of more than 2,000 people-mainly younge boys-in millhouse possession.
-Millhouse a former Des moines register circulation manager maintains he used the numbers to recruit carriers.
-Noreen in this article stated that for some time her son was abductor was an employee of the newspaper who had access to carrier routes.
-boys age 15 and 14 reported to police of abuse
-Millhouse quit his job at the newspaper in 1983-a year after JG. But still contained the boys names and pictures and phone numbers during the time of arrest.
-Was caught using different names during his phone calls with the boys and he was solicitating for sex acts.
-used names like Scott and Phil
-Police found evidence of high phone bills even years prior like 1985 of around $383.00
-used the GAB Line that was discontinued due to it being used to solicit sex and drugs.