Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #70

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This is the frustrating thing about this case.

There's so little information and what information there is available is often contradictory.

We don't know whether the police did follow them (undercover) and/or bug their vehicle.

I can't imagine even a psychopath having your son's body in the boot with your daughter and mum in the car with you. Or even discussing how to dispose of him.

While possible, it seems more likely that FM wanted to get her daughter and mother out of the house for a short while and out of the ear shot of some very sensitive discussions and to spare her mum seeing her house being taken over.

I also don't see anything sinister with pulling over to put on pull ups. My kids easily fell asleep in the car especially by the end of the day.

I've had to do this myself because even though a kid may have just used the bathroom, that doesn't mean they won't 10 minutes later. You see them drifting off and you pull over to put the pull up on.

And it's not so much about cleaning the car, it's the car seats that are bugger to clean and both those kids would have been in car seats.
 
Mauig’ma said:
Either way I guess it really doesn’t matter if it was the day William went missing or a day or two afterwards imo. Point is le messed up big time by not having the fgmc car bugged or at least find one of many le to ride along with her, fgmc and Williams sister. What’s interesting to me is that ffc took a drive by herself in her mom’s car and didn’t mention it right away. Then after WT is missing she(ffc) again takes her mother’s car with no le or surveillance. Huge red flag for me now. And when it was confirmed at the beginning. Moo. Something happened on that ride. I feel it! Imo. Whether it was to throw or hide an item or dispose of William. Idk. None of what’s been released as of lately & even before that drives my hinky meter as high as it can go. Moo
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Listening devices may have been placed in the car or surveillance operatives may have been utilised for that journey, we just don't know. Not every piece of information is divulged at an inquest, all the details of the investigation are not going to be made public IMO
 
deugirtni said:
I have pondered the same. There was no visual verification of W after his prominent display on FD's shoulders captured on McD's CCTV (other than by members of the foster family). Five photos of W all taken quickly in a row of nothing particularly special, was the proof of life at Benaroon Drive the morning of his disappearance - up until it came into question during the inquest, and that issue for me, is still outstanding, until the coroner releases the findings of the investigation she ordered into that matter, which was publicly known after MSM published it.

For me, it didn't make sense that this seemingly intelligent couple would run the risk of obliterating their entire family at the side of the highway (not sure if it was a ramp or just the regular highway), in darkness, to pull over, presumably take the kids out of the vehicle, remove their pants, put on their pullups (even though – they were 3.25 and 4.5 yrs old - it wasn't like they were now going to drift off to sleep for an 8 hour drive or something). They had JUST visited inside a McDonalds with perfectly good bathroom facilities - surely they could have lasted another couple of hours before another bathroom break?

They picked up the kids from daycare at around 4pm-ish.. the kids were immediately put into the vehicle to start their 4-4.5(?) hour journey... three hours later (est), the fosters are expecting the kids to go to sleep? I could see them going to sleep if they'd commenced their journey at 7pm or 8pm or 9pm, but at 4ish, and being reportedly excited to be going on a trip and to visit with their FGM, and after having been confined in a vehicle already for 2-3 hours - would they be ready for sleep? And this pull-over on the roadway in the dark was so important, why? Leather seats (I’m presuming their Land Rover Discovery had leather) can clean up well, imo.

Is it possible it was prearranged to meet another party at the side of that roadside in the dark, where there were presumably no cameras, to ‘move him on’ to someone? Nobody knew what these people looked like, nor what vehicle they drove (in fact not until the inquest some 4 years later), nor did the public know where they stopped along the way exactly, so very unlikely that someone would report such a potential sighting so far away from FGM's house, imo. This, to me, is one example of how the secrecy surrounding the fosters has greatly hindered this case.
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From there start I always wondered about the nappy and where is ended up, bin at foster grandmother in the household or wheely bin out side, if so was it collected by police and baged or atleast photographed then possible DNA taken?, if no nappy existed could it show he never made it to Kendall, or was the sister put in a nappy in case any questions over the nappy arise they will hav a full nappy i can't imagine 4 and a half yr old girl needed a nappy unless she has any delays with toilet training maby they used the story she was in one incase there was dna to show its the sisters nappy, you would just assume that police would of tiped out the bins and checked them, just because a child vanished on the property you cant take the foster family lead that he has wonder or been taken by a stranger you you hav to look at that and look at the family, I just wouldn't imagine this situation of lets not look into the family happening in other families whos child disappeared at home you would assume things are surched assume interview done that day even at midnight being forced to not sleep to give an interview i mean its a missing 4yr old and thies people get to go to bed and what not without any formal interview, I hav always suspected he never made it into foster grandmother house but when they released mcdonalds it just shows he made it to Raymond Terrace, why not put the pull ups on at mcdonalds in the car park
Mauig’ma said:
I finally found it! Post #1,172 of the inquest. Yes the drive to the airport was in fact the evening the day he vanished. Moo
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As I recall from everything I hav ever read she drove the night he was missing hence I always suspected her but years later I read she whent a different night, days or weeks later, so I was just so confused as I always remember facts and I always thought something was off given the fact she drove the night of the disappearance then it changed to a few days or weeks later, could it hav been two trips to the airport the night of the disappearance then another trip few days/weeks later, so can it now be confirmed she drove the night of the disappearance with her grazed/injured hand? No driving company employed to pick up sister, no taxi, no family asked to do it, foster mother had to be the one and it was the night her child has disappeared?
 
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bearbear said:
i agree, it always seemed the mcdonalds trip was staged, a happy normal family and its always seemed very odd the children had a nappy change at the side of the road, wouldnt they have all toileted at mcdonalds before heading off on the rest of the journey? im wondering if william even arrived at fgms or was he deceased/"asleep" when they arrived,
and we dont know if fcs went out that night after L was put to bed, all we have is their story, the fcs have had total control of the narrative from day one, pretty much unchallenged, and pushing the abduction scenario from the start
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right.
The photo of william being a point of contention needing to be validated and not meeting 100% satisfaction tells us LE are not confident that he wasindeed alive at 9.37am.

Rosanne can not bank on anything independantly from post Heatherbrae maccas the evening before.

There is nothing to say that the entire morning couldnt have been a total fabrication.

Or its 100% truthful...
and anywhere in between those perimetres.

In the event that LE truly do not know yet what happened....if this line wasn't hard looked then no wonder we are where we are with it.

Timelines given under suspicious circumstances are ALWAYS much shorter than they really are.

moo
 
‘We had to deal (with) things such as WT hitting me, biting me and him being basically furious’ with another child in the foster parents’ house.

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I just want to talk about my situation i hav a child with Pathalogical Demand Avoidence its a rare form or autism hard to get diagnosed with the person not handling any demands actually a demand can cause meltdowns/anxiety and the child controls the family as a way of dealing with the demands of life, its basically a hard life with a child like not much sleep and living completely exhausted and its hard to get recognition as the child has better eye contact, better communication and better social skills than the average autistic child, plus my child has night terrors and has never experienced anything traumatic like being homed with a different family i could never imagine the stress that would cause, hav always felt that alot of what i hear from the foster mother is similar to our situation, how the child likes an adult in the house better than the other adult, the other adult is getting bitten and hit,

So to get to the point im trying to make if the child had a condition what ever that condition is im not trying to give a diagnosis could that be some form of trigger to potential motivation, that potentially she or they had enough of the situation they were in, especially if trying to push the fact they wanted to stop parental visits when maby they could of been finding out from private doctors or therapist if the child actually had a condition rather than relying on the department to look into behaviour, im just saying that a child acting like he was most familys would be thinking lets find out what's wrong with him rather than pushing only one story i just can't see how the birth family could of caused the behaviour as he was taken as a baby would hav no memory of his life with them all he has is the odd happy play with thies people who love him for a hour here or there, his only memories would of been living with the fosters, I just feel the behaviour would more likely be a condition that causes that type of behaviour rather than a visit to a birth family that love him, im just saying if there was a condition that caused a child to hav this type of behaviour like with the Pathological Demand Avoidence my child always has to be in a costume ever day is stressful around normal clothes and even trying them to wear a singlet is major issues my life i feel so many sameness as to what they were experiencing but my child is my child i understand and get on with life im not in my 40s or 50s yet and I just think that if someone else had to deal with the way my child is they may not be able to handle it so I see a trigger or motivation in this case if it was the situation of the child having some type of condition/undiagnosed behaviour disability
 
bearbear said:
....... all we have is their story, the fcs have had total control of the narrative from day one, pretty much unchallenged, and pushing the abduction scenario from the start
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Maybe because they feel an abduction happened? We know they were nervous about the BP taking William and hiding him again. They must have heard that whole saga from FACS and been alerted to it. imo

Then later they seemed to understand that the abduction could have happened by a pedo, and their pain was evident in thinking of that (in their televised police interview).

I know that some of us feel that 2nd option is a distinct possibility.

I would like to know things like ... where was FA that morning? (He doesn't remember.)
And did GO have any priors against children? Because he was definitely in Kendall that morning.
And who was this child who was taken 300km away by FA? A deathbed confession seems pretty important.
Who was this ex-taxi driver neighbour Peter? What was he doing? How was he cancelled out from having involvement?
 
deugirtni said:
<snipped for focus>
.Why was it not explicitly asked at inquest as to which day it was that FM drove to the airport? Did the coroner's counsel ask if FM had been accompanied by LE? If not, why not? It seems like everyone steps on eggshells in this case, willing to accept whatever discrepancies come out, without pushing for solid answers. imo.
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I think that there are things within the brief that are solid, and there was no need to discuss them at the inquest. imo

And they were not relevant in laying out the case to the public observers.

The inquest would have gone on forever, if they reviewed every fact that is in the police brief.

Just because we don't know does not mean there is not absolute proof in the police brief that the Coroner has already accepted. This could apply to many things.
 
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Wexford said:
Is it possible that it was deliberate and the car was bugged? Surely in that early stage LE would be looking closely at immediate family.
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Given his overall support of the fosters, I think Jubelin would have mentioned it in his book if their car was bugged at that stage. He gives a lot of detail about bugging PS and talks of his frustration at equipment failures and poor quility of audio.
 
JBowie said:
Given his overall support of the fosters, I think Jubelin would have mentioned it in his book if their car was bugged at that stage. He gives a lot of detail about bugging PS and talks of his frustration at equipment failures and poor quility of audio.
Click to expand...
The covert operations on PS were made public during Jubelin's trial, which was before the book's release if I'm remembering correctly. Perhaps he was able to mention it in his book because it was already out in the public domain.
 
Trmtrm2 said:
‘We had to deal (with) things such as WT hitting me, biting me and him being basically furious’ with another child in the foster parents’ house.

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I just want to talk about my situation i hav a child with Pathalogical Demand Avoidence its a rare form or autism hard to get diagnosed with the person not handling any demands actually a demand can cause meltdowns/anxiety and the child controls the family as a way of dealing with the demands of life, its basically a hard life with a child like not much sleep and living completely exhausted and its hard to get recognition as the child has better eye contact, better communication and better social skills than the average autistic child, plus my child has night terrors and has never experienced anything traumatic like being homed with a different family i could never imagine the stress that would cause, hav always felt that alot of what i hear from the foster mother is similar to our situation, how the child likes an adult in the house better than the other adult, the other adult is getting bitten and hit,

So to get to the point im trying to make if the child had a condition what ever that condition is im not trying to give a diagnosis could that be some form of trigger to potential motivation, that potentially she or they had enough of the situation they were in, especially if trying to push the fact they wanted to stop parental visits when maby they could of been finding out from private doctors or therapist if the child actually had a condition rather than relying on the department to look into behaviour, im just saying that a child acting like he was most familys would be thinking lets find out what's wrong with him rather than pushing only one story i just can't see how the birth family could of caused the behaviour as he was taken as a baby would hav no memory of his life with them all he has is the odd happy play with thies people who love him for a hour here or there, his only memories would of been living with the fosters, I just feel the behaviour would more likely be a condition that causes that type of behaviour rather than a visit to a birth family that love him, im just saying if there was a condition that caused a child to hav this type of behaviour like with the Pathological Demand Avoidence my child always has to be in a costume ever day is stressful around normal clothes and even trying them to wear a singlet is major issues my life i feel so many sameness as to what they were experiencing but my child is my child i understand and get on with life im not in my 40s or 50s yet and I just think that if someone else had to deal with the way my child is they may not be able to handle it so I see a trigger or motivation in this case if it was the situation of the child having some type of condition/undiagnosed behaviour disability
Click to expand...
I would like to know in detail, how the BM handled her little W. She was given only an hour or two monthly of time to meet him, but she never said, he was difficult. She never said, he would be furious with his sister or his brothers. Of course it may very well be, the bio mum had no opportunity at all to tell something about her experiences. BM got viewed as the the only disruptive factor; nobody would have asked her. IMO

I think, little W felt at the wrong place with his FFC and felt handled wrong. If he was furious with his sister, it might be, she got preferred by the FFC, because she was much easier to care for. Little W had a reason to be very jealous perhaps. I can also imagine, in daycare with other children the same problem popped up, maybe even biting and hitting as well as being jealous (in turn with implications for stricter parenting methods at home).
The only bright spot of the day for little W was probably seeing his foster father, who he loved so much. (If it is true, what is being said about their emotional connection.)
It's all so very sad.
 
FromGermany1 said:
I would like to know in detail, how the BM handled her little W. She was given only an hour or two monthly of time to meet him, but she never said, he was difficult. She never said, he would be furious with his sister or his brothers. Of course it may very well be, the bio mum had no opportunity at all to tell something about her experiences. BM got viewed as the the only disruptive factor; nobody would have asked her. IMO

I think, little W felt at the wrong place with his FFC and felt handled wrong. If he was furious with his sister, it might be, she got preferred by the FFC, because she was much easier to care for. Little W had a reason to be very jealous perhaps. I can also imagine, in daycare with other children the same problem popped up, maybe even biting and hitting as well as being jealous (in turn with implications for stricter parenting methods at home).
The only bright spot of the day for little W was probably seeing his foster father, who he loved so much. (If it is true, what is being said about their emotional connection.)
It's all so very sad.
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Given the allegations that William was removed partially due to domestic violence happening in the house, he may have been born with a predisposition to anger.

We don't know the root cause of his behaviour.

One speculation is as good as another, in that regard. There are too many causes of childhood outbursts. If there was anything there, William was too young to yet be adequately diagnosed.

imo
 
Lemony said:
The covert operations on PS were made public during Jubelin's trial, which was before the book's release if I'm remembering correctly. Perhaps he was able to mention it in his book because it was already out in the public domain.
Click to expand...

IIRC, NSW Police were not too happy about Jubelin's discussion in his book of their covert processes.
 
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