Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #146

[Cryptic]

All I meant by my comment is that it is nonsensical.

A certain amount of crime does not make sense to anybody but the perpetrator. Take for example the recent shooting rampage in Texas.

You'd have to be a real special kind of stupid to commit a crime of this caliber quite literally in your own backyard....

I agree, one would have to be dimwitted. This dimwitted perpetrator rage kills his cousin pretty much in his own back yard. The thinking ability of some 14 year olds and some 77 year olds could be pretty similar.:
14-year-old held on $1 million bond in murder of girl, 10, in Wisconsin

Then, there is this dynamic duo- kidnapping and murdering the parents of the lead perpetrator's girl friend. Never mind that they had discussed the crime openly, had just been kicked out of the victims home, and the crime was very unlikely to yield any real gain.
A man has been convicted of killing a Madison doctor and her husband and leaving their bodies at the UW-Madison arboretum

In the end, your observation about such a perpetrator's lack of intelligence is very true. But.... there are a certain number of criminals who are dimwitted, aggressive and impulsive.

 

[wary]

Well said.

The video resembles RL and..... also resembles a vast legion of upper middle aged or elderly semi rural mid western males. And, as you said, people's phones will ping where they live.

Likewise, I suspect that RL had a long and distinguished history of covering for his string of misdemeanor level mis-deeds with a variety of poorly thought out lies, spins and half truths. As a result, the advance alibi lie could be totally in character for him.

Even still, I would have gotten the search warrant just to clear him and move on.

At the end of the day, most members of the mid western male legion did not lie about their activities, dont live close by and dont have accusations of aggressive behavior towards women.

I totally agree that getting the search warrant was a good thing for LE to do.

Judging from their speech and actions, I think they did clear him and move on. (However, is there any chance that there’s a member of LE who still thinks it was RL or hopes it might have been? Hence, the warrant leak? Probably not.)

MOO

 

[abams]

Hi. I have been following the case from the start as I lived relatively close at the time. I absolutely don't think Ron Logan did this. It's almost humorous of that FBI agent to suggest that a 77 year old man could be capable of single-handedly killing two girls and then bringing them to a secondary location, staging a scene, and getting away from the scene without anyone seeing him. Ron did lie to the police and seemed sketchy in that light but I think he was trying to avoid getting in trouble with his probation for drinking that day, etc, if I remember correctly.

I wanted to say I am confused regarding the motives of this podcast. HOW is this podcast getting these "leaked" documents? Something is fishy, to me.

bbm. I thought their reasoning was evident in the warrant. For me there are better arguments in his favor than those based on any physicality necessary, because after all they were searching for guns and LE (and later news crews!) saw him traversing up and down the area with ease. imo BG approached with a gun and committed the murders with the redacted probably bladed weapon. Now I don't personally believe RL is the killer, but I also don't believe this crime requires a prime athlete if you see what I'm saying.

And with as much time that's passed, I don't particularly care how the podcast is getting the information -- whether it's being deliberately leaked or through formal information requests. Rumors and speculation of this stuff have been floating around for years, AFAIK this podcast is the first one to actually publish any official documents.

 

[HistoryNut]

<rsbm>

Maybe I'm missing something, but RL was at the transfer station in the morning, and at the fish store around 5:00ish. Why was his false alibi only for the timeframe in which the girls were believed to have been killed instead of coinciding with the times he actually went to the transfer station earlier in the day and the fish store later in the day?

Does anyone know if LE confiscated RL’s cell phone?

 

[Georgia8]

That is a good and important question S.B.

Can anyone remind me of the extent of R.L's property? Also how often did he walk around the property. I get the sense in the videos of him showing media his property and the crime scene that it is not a remote part of his property he rarely sees.

Conjecture: could Logan have come across the crime scene. Could he have heard a noise e.g. the girls screaming for help? Could he have come across the perpetrators and were they people he felt he couldn't inform on? That is just one idea where Logan is not the perpetrator but knows of the time line he needs to cover for. Could there be some type of situation where the girls were murdered on Logan's property as a message to Logan? And he is afraid for some reason.

On another note the crime is just so weird. It would not have been difficult to arrange a crime which would be safer for the perp and allow more time with the victims. I think the topography, the place, the creek, is important to the perp.

I think we are underestimating the strange coincidences that occur in crime cases and in life generally and this is especially true if the victim if female due to the huge amount of predation on women and girls. I remember a case where a woman while being murdered in her home and was able to call 911 she had been receiving death threats and when the police arrived a nude man was outside looking through the window pleasuring himself. All of those three things turned out not to be related.

So...Anthony Shots could be a red herring. The Purdue killer of the 9 year old one more sick individual with nothing to do with Delphi and that true of other like suspects. Logan...well people have made many objections here though I do think Logan would have easily been able to handle that bridge and with a gun secure the girls.

After all it can't be all of them so maybe it is none of them. I agree with the the criminologist on the recent Murder Sheet extra episode that it is likely someone who lived in Delphi as a child and youth and moved away but still remembers the terrain like the back of his hand. I would add the possibility of a an academic or scientist or technician of some kind for Indiana say studying or preserving the ecology of the creek, doing archaeology, etc.

There is still the possibility that the police are being tormented by strange coincidences that are all red herrings and it will turn out to be someone not named yet.

 

[abams]

Does anyone know if LE confiscated RL’s cell phone?

Can assume so, or at least the one found when looking at pings in the area. The warrant lists search and seizure of "electronic devices used to produce the cellular signals detected by law enforcement in the area of the crime scene"

 

[Georgia8]

Adding someone mentioned how did the podcast get these two priceless troves of info (considering we have been starved for such? Oh I agree they are being fed them for some reason. I don't believe for a second that with KK they were just looking for something else a mistake was made. Anyone have an idea of the source if it is as you say fishy.

 

[Sillybilly]

That is a good and important question S.B.

Can anyone remind me of the extent of R.L's property? Also how often did he walk around the property. I get the sense in the videos of him showing media his property and the crime scene that it is not a remote part of his property he rarely sees.

<rsbm>

Not sure we know the extent of his property, but paragraph 4. of the Warrant specified that "The location of the crime scene is approximately 1400 feet from LOGAN'S residence"

 

[Silver_produce0]

Which make me wonder why ISP are so intent on getting people to come forward about the a_shots account. I think they may be trying to piece together some stuff, but need the public's help. I'd have assumed that there would be a digital record of some sort or another when it comes to popular SM platforms, one which could be easily searchable by LE in a case, but apparently that's not always an option.

RSBM

My assumption is that they are/were looking for meetups or planned meetups to see if someone other than KK showed up (like TK) and if it wasn’t one of them to develop a geographic profile of where these visits did/were planned to take place. Could tell us where the perpetrator lives or works.

 

[Jerrod]

That is a good and important question S.B.

Can anyone remind me of the extent of R.L's property? Also how often did he walk around the property. I get the sense in the videos of him showing media his property and the crime scene that it is not a remote part of his property he rarely sees.

Logan's 39 acres are divided into 4 separate parcels. This is the westernmost parcel, upon which the girls' bodies were found, along with the parcel where his home sits:

 

[Spartygirl]

According to BMcD, TL told her there is no other spoken words by the killer on L's audio. Elsewhere, it's said the video/audio is 43 seconds and "dth" is at the end of it. If we are to believe that, I'm curious why the video ended right then.

HLN 'Down The Hill' Transcript: Who Killed Abby & Libby? - CrimeLights

BARBARA MACDONALD: They’re telling us the video’s nowhere near as long as a lot of people think it. People online have speculated it is several minutes— 8, 9 minutes long. The Sheriff tells me it’s not anywhere near that long and that there’s nothing else from the suspect on it. He doesn’t say any other words on it.

But didn't Anna (Abby's mother) state that Abby said "there's no place to go" or "the path ends here" something like that. She was on HLN IIRC and said that was on the video also.
I am sure that LE is not going to tell everything that was on the video/audio IMO

 

[Spartygirl]

I wondered that too. A detailed explanation regarding the source of LEs interview with KAK released before that but nada about RL’s search warrant. Was the source even authenticated?

All I meant by my comment is that it is nonsensical.
His false alibi had to do with violating his parole. He lived AT the crime scene. You'd have to be a real special kind of stupid to commit a crime of this caliber quite literally in your own backyard.
The resemblance thing is phooey. There are many, many men who we could say "resemble" the extremely pixelated image that we all know as BG. Unfortunately, I am sure that many men in the area show aggression to women. The real focus would need to be if they show aggression to women, have a fascination with violence, and tend to focus on younger girls.

While I have followed crimes of "stupid" people doing just that, I agree 1000% with you that RL's alibi had everything to do with his probation violations and that he would not leave 2 murdered teenagers in his own back yard.
BG, IMO, is not a 77 yr old man, IMO
BG, IMO, fits more into the KAK, TK, Judge Fauts kind of scenario with the young girls and the sex rings via SM.
Plus, LE had RL in jail for a long time and if RL was BG, I think they would have found this out while they had him locked up.
I would be my life that LE/FBI were keeping tabs on RL after his release and yet, still no arrest, so there's that also.

 

[Spartygirl]

Logan's 39 acres are divided into 4 separate parcels. This is the westernmost parcel, upon which the girls' bodies were found, along with the parcel where his home sits:
View attachment 346043
View attachment 346044

Just adding a few more maps from the beginning that I have from being there at bridge, trails and in Delphi

 

[carbuff]

I understand that on certain SM platforms "stories" on them can be set to auto delete within a given period of time, or perhaps upon signing out of the platform. Perhaps even by a user, too.

Which make me wonder why ISP are so intent on getting people to come forward about the a_shots account. I think they may be trying to piece together some stuff, but need the public's help. I'd have assumed that there would be a digital record of some sort or another when it comes to popular SM platforms, one which could be easily searchable by LE in a case, but apparently that's not always an option.

JMO

The digital record would only tell them so much. For instance, the information that one girl found a peeping tom in a ski mask outside her window after talking to a_shots would only come from talking to the witness.

 

[m00c0w]

RSBM

My assumption is that they are/were looking for meetups or planned meetups to see if someone other than KK showed up (like TK) and if it wasn’t one of them to develop a geographic profile of where these visits did/were planned to take place. Could tell us where the perpetrator lives or works.

Yeah, this is my thought as well. They wanted to see if anyone had actually met up with a_s in person, or maybe even had video chats with a_s to see if they could identify people actively using the account. If that person looks like a 40-something year old man from Peru, then ding ding ding.

 

[M. Kay]

I don't think RL was a part of any murder plan, yet rough characters had been working and socializing on his property, e.g. GK who is in prison for murder, and those associated with meth. There are many TV news clips online about gang activities in that area of Indiana, and he knew gang members.
KK was perhaps paid to lure girls, and didn't care what ‘clients’ intentions were. Maybe RL was fearful he would be drawn in from past associations and record. No one recently has mentioned the calls RL made to LE after the crime when someone was in his out building. (I regret I don't have a link for this but someone will.)

 

[Hoosier952]

I don’t know how important witness identification would be considering nobody witnessed the crime taking place. Add to that five plus years have passed and also the photos of KK and JBC have been widely circulated, leading to the possibility of contamination of witness memory.

Secondly the sketch represented their recollect at the time so I think a good defense attorney would totally shred the witness’s credibility on the stand if the accused didn’t resemble the sketch because it’s questionable why their later memory would recall someone who looks different (assuming that’s the case) JMO

But LE knew about KK/TK long before witness contamination would have come into play. I don't know the legalities of showing a witness a photo of someone NOT formally accused of a crime though. They knew of TK/KK within days of the murders and were paying them a visit in the first two weeks.

And while maybe not viable legally, surely if a witness from the day of the murders came forward after any of these folks made the news, they would have gone to LE and said "that's the guy!". Maybe couldn't use it in court, but might help know where to focus.

 

[m00c0w]

But LE knew about KK/TK long before witness contamination would have come into play. I don't know the legalities of showing a witness a photo of someone NOT formally accused of a crime though. They knew of TK/KK within days of the murders and were paying them a visit in the first two weeks.

And while maybe not viable legally, surely if a witness from the day of the murders came forward after any of these folks made the news, they would have gone to LE and said "that's the guy!". Maybe couldn't use it in court, but might help know where to focus.

I mean, photo lineups happen all the time that are full of random folks that just happen to look like someone else.

 

[IQuestion]

So KK planned to meet Libby that day but she didn’t show up? Where did he plan to meet her? He showed up but she didn’t?

Sorry catching up hereA

Jumping off your brilliant post....Uh, Where is the follow up text from KK/A_S that asks, "Hey L, I showed up at "our arranged meeting place" and you stood me up! Are you avoiding me? Do you want to try for next week?" Of course just thinking out loud, but would be interesting to read when the messaging stopped. And after that point, did KK stop his insidious activities or did he just work harder to hide his actions?

 

[shonyakay]

That is why I found it interesting that he reported hearing it from a friend of Anna’s. Wouldn’t he have heard it directly from family members since he had spoken directly to family members? JMO

Did Gray state it was a "friend"? To be honest, I didn't watch the entire video.

On one part he says the person replied,
"So, Annie had seen the rest of the video, there isn't much. We already knew that they want him (BG) to think there is."

It was obviously someone close to Anna. Note the "We already knew" in the second sentence.

Gray referred to the person as a female, but I'm not sure whether this lady was a friend or a family member.

He claims to have had this correspondence since May 2017. That was very early on and I don't know when his earliest contact with the family members were.