TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 #6

[beubeubeu]

I'm pretty sure it's been discussed here before, IIRC there was two shops.
I did go back and find a post I made a while back with an Arlington address. If you scroll up from there you will see an attachment posted by Wishyouknew that gives a Fort Worth address.

Post in thread 'TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 - #5' TX - TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 - #5

Thanks, I tried to search forum but didn't find it. And I'm probably doing this the wrong way, by jumping all over earlier parts of this thread while I haven't read this one (at least recently).

I'm just all over the place with it.
I'm still leaning towards single murderer, yet I wrote this long long post with timeline where is actually few of them.
But there is so many points of this story where it's "either A or B (possibly but less likely C)" that it doesn't make sense to hold to just one, all possibilities should be explored in hope of maybe, maybe thinking of something relevant.

Even that concept of Thomas suddenly jumping from average guy straight into mass murderer doesn't sit well with me.
It doesn't make much sense psychologically - I think, but I have no authority there apart from reading, so it doesn't really mean anything.
No matter how angry he would be, just sight of Renee and Julie should calm him down. At least enough to wait till they'll be gone (gone back to their homes I mean) to "deal" with Rachel, and that time should give him enough time to cool off, came back to whatever senses he relied on and water it down to at best verbal abuse. Murderous rage don't last that long, it's coming back but one single event, especially with first or one of the firsts outbursts...
And here it's like either nothing, or not that much, and then, he's suddenly jumping straight into fully blossomed Richard Ramirez level of frantic?

It somehow doesn't make sense either.

One theory says that it all could start with Debra calling him and telling him that Rachel went to the mall. I don't know how reliable is that he supposedly forbade her to go there.
This already doesn't sit well with me.

Maybe it was Debra, but he doesn't say that, she doesn't say that, phone calls were not followed back then... then why it's even such a big thing?
Could happen, of course, but unless there is a reason to assume that Rachel's mother would cover for her and never mentioned the fact that Rachel asked her to go with her that morning...
Why would he need info from Debra, if he kept calling Rachel's mom, who "was with him at the workshop". It seems like pretty obvious thing to share.
First - that she's not coming cause she needs to take care of Cotton.
Second - oh, I also couldn't go to the mall, Rachel stoped by in the morning.


So, even if he stormed out right away and drove like a maniac, it'd be still good 30 minutes from him to arrive at the mall and find Rachel. That's enough to calm down at least somewhat.
Then, maybe he saw her chatting with some guy that he found more attractive than him. That could make him mad, but then he had to also see Renee and Julie. And how could that did nothing?

To not care at all, just mad rage, here and there...
Maybe dragging Rachel out could make sense, but that's another few minutes. But why drag this little girl with her? Mad rage shouldn't make him pay any attention to Julie. And seeing Renee? Why not say to both of them to get lost while he has to have a serious talk with Rachel?
Only reason to take them with him that could make sense would be to drop them off. Who takes some random companions of the person that they're mad at or want to murder? Even serial killers are not into this unless it's somehow the only way to kidnap their victim of choice, to take down the whitness/obstacle out of the way. And they're two little girls. It just doesn't make much sense. Could happen, of course. But no sense in it.

If he got her in the mall, he'd have to be able to hold himself together long enough to get them out of there, drive somewhere... and then "something" and he has to get rid of the whitnesses? Where could that even happen?

At their home?
But Renee & Julie's homes are ON the way to Rachel & Thomas home.
Why take them with him? Why not drop them off? With triple murder on his mind already?


He took them to the workshop? Some other location? To do what? Yell at Rachel in peace, or maybe beat her up... in presence of a child and teen girl?
Or was he assumming that he cooled off but got angry again? Third time in a row? In span of about an hour, in 30 minutes long cycles? Ridiculous. Nobody has this kind of stamina to at first fake cooling off cause crowd in the mall, then fake cooling off cause girls had to be pushed into the vehicle and driven somewhere... or with no cooling off, but at least an hour of holding rage... rage doesn't work like that. 20-30 minutes is enough, then person has to make a conscious decision to commit a murder, and then it's not blind rage anymore, it's premeditation.
And why? Why? Why would he so mad at Julie? With Renee it's still insane, but maybe he could get mad at her cause she was Rachel's friend and he could figure that she has "bad influence" over her. But Julie too? Julie that he likely barely knew or maybe didn't knew at all?

Of course, it's possible to figure out something, some scenario where it could happen, but it'd be so unusual.
In the same time it'd be even more improbable, that essentially botched, not very well started investigation, with so many mistakes made would be also so crazy weird.

As for 2022 thank God we had dozens and dozens of decades old cold cases solved (with murderer/s prosecuded or identified but deceased) or half-solved (with case solved but not enough actual evidence to go for court case) and many, many, so many of them seemed so crazy, so mysterious, so seemingly not-making-any-sense or even implying involvement of supernatural forces... only to show that all crazyness, unpredictability and wild theories came to be cause of:
- widespread wrong facts about the case,
- not much really being known about the case,
- legends and tell tales that grew over initial mystery.

And not one I heard of was ever really unusual. Constantly same old, same old four stories:
1. Piece of trash felt like raping.
2. Piece of trash couldn't figure how to use condoms, cause it's very hard, and slaughtering a pregnant girl or mother with kids is so much easier.
3. Piece of trash wanted money so they murdered someone.
4. Piece of trash had fragile ego that got so hurt, that the only way to get his honor back was to prove to himself, that they're not only pathetic enough to be unable to let it go but also very eager to join club for the lowest of the low and murder someone over their own frustration.

These girls had no money, insurances or possessions that anyone couldn't take away from them while alive.
If Rachel was pregnant it would be only easier to control her and get more praise from everyone around, as they seem unconditionally in love with him.
So it's either 1 or 4, that after weeding out all the false and fantasy, leaves out just yet another, repetative tragedy.

Was it a thing in US for brothels - full of kidnapped, robbed of their ID's and constantly beaten up and drugged women - to exist for decases and not being raided? It was huge thing in Europe, still an issue, but in 2000's 90's and earlier just an epidemy of it.
But they rarely were kidnapped on the streets, either fooled into believing that they're going to have a normal job away from home, or fooled by people who were pretending to be their friends or boyfriends and kidnapped only after they told their families and friends that they're moving away.

Cause the above would be the only way I see that anyone could have some "news" about girls supposedly living longer than till the day they disappeard. Nothing else could possibly keep them away from home.

 

[beubeubeu]

I'm feeling like I'm making fool of myself with looking for arguments against my ovn previous arguments but once again, I got some more useless thoughts.
As with everything here: it may be wrong fact, nothing relevant or possibly something, but most likely not the latter.

What's almost 100% certain is that Renee was planning to go to the Army Navy Store to pick up her new jeans (or few items that she had on layway there).
Probably she wanted to do it before Christmas.
She may not know that she'll get promise ring that day, but I'm assumming that she wasn't invited to this grown up Christmas party last moment, but it's likely that with a ring she'd like to pay extra attention to her look and dedicate some more time to do this.

Another thing that we can be sure of is that Renee must knew at least two days beforehand that Rachel's stepson will be spending Christmas with her. 22 of December was Sunday and gift was already wrapped, so it was likely that she got it on Saturday or earlier.
I'd not consider preparing gifts for friends stepsons a normal thing - unless you're planning on visiting the household on the 24rd/35th, or you know that it's a really big thing for your friend.
Whoever prepares a gift is usually planning how to deliver it on time. So none of "oh maybe they'll stop by or maybe we'll meet".
If she would have a plan of visiting Rachel on 23rd or 24th, then really no reason to take the gift with her on the trip to the mall. This would be almost as finding an excuse to NOT visit a friend, no reason for that.
And even thou their houses are relatively close, Renee was 14, so probably already heavily involved in Christmas preparations, and everyone is usually on pretty tight schedule before the Christmas Eve.
If someone is caring enough to prepare a gift for friend's stepson, then it's unlikely for the same person to not be sure if they'll be able to deliver it on time. So she must be sure that she can do it. Especially if she had it with her before Sunday. Saturday or Sunday would be much more convenient time to ask someone for a lift or even go for a walk and leave the gift at Rachel's. She didn't do that.
All the above makes me pretty confident, that it was no last minute question from Rachel to go to the mall. It had to be pre-planned, at least on Saturday, maybe earlier.

Why I'm taking such lenght to establish that?
Cause it seems like first thing in the morning of 23rd, things are already all over the place.

It's either:
A) Thomas forbade Rachel to go to the mall.
B) Thomas didn't mind the trip, and asked her to drove him to the workshop to leave her a car to go.

People close to them should knew enough to make an educated guess which one of these was more likely.
Was he drinking on his bowling nights?
If so, then was he reluctant to drunk drive?
It could be normal thing for him to not drink there, or to seek for a lift from someone - either straight in the morning or after returning home.
Where he was usually eating dinners? At home or out? Or maybe he was heading out to grab some food with his bowling companions?
I know that it sounds ridiculous to wonder about his dinners, butbowling mondays were a thing for him, so he had to have some kind of habit and it's significant, no matter which one of these it was.

I see only one scenario that isn't incriminating for him.

Rachel's mother was NOT at the workshop when Renee & Julie's families started to worry. She was home.
5pm and they're driving to the mall worried that Rachel's oldsmobile may be on the side of the road, not working, with girls waiting for help.
This is already bit weird, right? Family business is all about cars, and relatively new car that belongs to co-owner of that business is crashing?
May happen, of course, it's also pretty reasonable thing to consider: girls are not home yet - there must be something wrong with the car.
But isn't it also pretty good thing to consider that Thomas may know something about it?
How can they all be sure that Rachel didn't call him? How? They can't. They're calling everyone but somehow Thomas learns about girls disappearance 8:30pm?

The only unsuspicious scenario there would be that that he was leaving/closing the workshop at 5pm or earlier, then he was heading out to eat something and arriving at the bowling alley shortly after 8pm. If so, and if it was a habit, then okay.
But ad for the business says that they were open till 5:30 pm.
Not good for a business to close it earlier than some customers may show up.

Btw. One thing. Wishyouknew shared it in post #904 and stated that it's from March 1973.

This is the building in Arlington: link to google maps
It looked like this in Jan 2018:

I found that this property was for sale:

as built in 1973.
So I'd guess that they made the ad right after they rented office space there?

Anyways.
So this is where the actual workshop was link.
Building doesn't look like it was there 49 years ago.

And now excuse me the disastrous quality of this, but I wanted to do this long time ago, I just didn't knew where these places are/were.
Now, I'd appreciate to know if I'm wrong with something here.

Of course, I have no idea what schools were open in 1974, but I just added them just in case (black "x"s)
Since Rachel's home was earlier TT's parents home, I'd think that Debra, Rachel and Thomas knew each other - they may attend same highschool, possibly even same grade school.

So he didn't just jumped into the picture suddenly, and since he and his first wife married pretty young, I'd also assume that she was living in the area too (which would make sense for her to possibly see car on their driveway).

Since Renee's home was just bit over a mile from TT's home, it's pretty possible that Rachel's stepson wasn't just some kid that she only heard of, she may knew him or at least be able to recognize him.

It already clears up some things that I had wrong before.

I dare to make an educated guess that if it's correct then Thomas being seen while walking back from Lake Arlington is as ridiculous as thinking that girls may WALK to the bus stop from the mall while running away. It's be at least 2 hours walk, either after dark or in his working hours. So come on.

But there is also no way that Julie just "ran" into the Renee's house after she learned that her brother give Renee a ring.
I've read that they lived just across the street from each other but that must be the case with Rachel and Renee, not with Renee and Julie.
Julie's brother must take his sisters with him, as he went to give Renee promise ring.
No way that Julie's mom would be reluctant to allow her to go to the mall with Rachel if she had no issue with Julie walking 4 hours to visit Renee in the morning.
So there has to be some idea what Julie was supposed to do or who to be with, till her mom would return from work.

Also no idea if that was the same bowling alley that Thomas frequented, it's just the nearest to the workshop that exists today. Maybe some opened, some closed, but they are not in - what I'd consider as "walking distance" for a car owner.


I wanted to focus on someting else, but making this map took me so long that I have to leave it for tomorrow.

 

[beubeubeu]

I don't like the fact that Julie's mom didn't knew Rachel.
Okay, Rachel got married six months earlier. Okay posibly before that Renee and Julie's brother weren't that serious with dating - but surely on the 23rd of December they were...
For sure Julie had enough time to befriend Renee and get comfortable with her, and Renee and Rachel were best/very good friends since childhood. And even more, Rachel's husband got into their family business, and they stayed in pretty much the same neighbourhood.
I get that 16yo young woman wouldn't have 8yo girl as her favorite companion to spend time with, but for me there is enough connections there to justify at least few occassions where Julie's mother would get a chance to talk to Rachel at least briefly. At least once for sure...

As she didn't (unless it's another wrong fact and she knew her, just not knew her ENOUGH to feel comfortable allowing Julie to go with her somewhere right away)... it may mean nothing, may be just accidental, but just makes me lean stronger towards the suspicion that Rachel having access to a car and being free to go out with her friends wasn't usual thing.

I want to get back where I left it yesterday, before I stuck with the map.

It's either:
A) Thomas forbade Rachel to go to the mall.
B) Thomas didn't mind the trip, and asked her to drove him to the workshop to leave her a car to go.

I feel that there is plenty of hints that are not proof of anything on their own, but together...

1. Why Rachel asked Debra to go to the mall with her?
Maybe just because she was going there.
Maybe just in case Debra would like to go.
Maybe they talked about it a bit earlier and Rachel was unsure of Debra's final decision.
Maybe.
But they weren't supposed to go there together and Debra was asleep, and as I understand had a car. With car she could go there on her own whenever she wanted, or join them there later, possibly at noon or bit later. But she didn't asked her to join them later (as far as we know).

2. Why Rachel didn't call her mother to ask if she wants to go to the mall? As far as I understand she called Renee, then drove to her parents home and asked her mom. Why not call knowing that Renee is in a bit of a hurry?
Seems like Rachel's mother had a car or free access to a car. So she as well could go to the mall whenever she had time/need.

I will never know the answer but for me it looks like she wanted to have someone "on her side".
Going out with younger friend and older sister who isn't as close of a friend with the first girl may be cool, but I don't see that as the preferred option. Even stranger squad if it would be she, her younger friend, older sister and mom - perfectly okay with awareness that ALL these people likely want to go to the mall. Possibly convenient solution if she wanted to buy a gift that she couldn't afford on her own, but with little help from sister and mom she could get it.
(Also not sure what kind of woman Rachel's mother was then, but to my experience, there is usually much better chances of convincing moms to go somewhere where they kinda want or may go but are always up to some excuses why they shouldn't go or should focus on something else with visit than with a call.)

Unless there are some details that are unknown to me and change the look of it... for me it looks like she was expecting that Thomas may give her some trouble over that trip and that was why she tried to get Debra, her mom, Renee's boyfriend and Julie's 11yo sister to go with her, hoping that their presence will water down all possible anger.
Or maybe she was just polite... but no, IMO it's unusual to ask six people for companionship on the trip to the mall. And if that thing would be usual for her, then she'd create plenty of opportunities to meet Julie's mother before.

Has it ever been said what part of the envelope the DNA was found, the stamp or the flap or both?
I remember going in the post office in past times and asking for a stamped envelope and the person behind the counter would lick a stamp put it on the envelope and hand it to me. I was just wondering if they eliminated postal workers as the donor for the DNA, depending on where it was found.

I think that this is going into a rabbit hole (which I'm also keep on doing but trying to stop).

How many times do you remember person behind the counter being male?
It may be different in US, but for me it was rather rare to see a man there. Men were usually doing the work that involved heavy lifting of bags with mail, collecting it, delivering, and more often than not women were sitting behing the counter.

Could happen, but it must be occassional thing to do, caused by personal preferrence of that postal worker or enforced by lack of wet sponge in sight. Nobody is going to sit at the post office and lick hundreds of envelopes daily, especially in Texas, that would lead to some serious dehydration.

These are two rare circumstances that would have to occur: person behind the counter would have to be a man with no wet sponge but will to lick stamps.
That's very improbable.

19 years passed since they found issues with Forth Worth lab. That sounds like enough time to make sure if they were wrong in this case.
What's concerning is that the only statement I see about the results was that DNA didn't matched anyone in the database or the girls. Was the obvious suspect even in the database then? Not that many people there back in 2003.
So who did they excluded? Girls, identified serial killers and local offenders active in '90s? It really should be done now, there is so much more in these databases now.

 

[beubeubeu]

Well, it's not like I'm getting anywhere with it. It still doesn't make sense.

TT going straight from being maybe possessive and not a great guy to murdering three underage girls, including his young wife, her 14yo friend that he knows and a little girl, on his usual workday, then takes care of the crime scene, removes all the evidence, disposes of the bodies (or prepares himself to do so) and then goes bowling like nothing happened, and he doesn't even act noticeably weird after? It's not like he could google "how to not appear not traumatized after doing unplanned triple murder?". All that at 22, without much that would imply that he's some kind of master organiser?
It doesn't make sense. Unless A LOT is missing in the story.

But what's the other scenario? Why write the letter if he's not responsible for the disappearance? To be polite towards his wife murderers? Abductors? Likely rapists?
But how could he know that girls are missing if he wasn't involved? How he knows that in time to mail anything?
Was he or Debra aware of some other possible location that girls could go to? Why he wasn't called immediately to be asked if he doesn't know where they could go and why are they so late? If attempts were made, how it's not suspicious that he went nobody knows where why and what for almost 4 hours?

And what, possibly dangerous or even risky place occasion could they walk into having 9yo sister of Renee's boyfriend with them?
It's not like they had to take her with them. There was no plan on taking Julie with them so there has to be some other plan as to who is going to spend rest of the day with her, till her mother will be back from work.
Excuse could be as easy as Renee saying "oh no Julie, you can't go with us, I wanted to get a gift for you today and I don't want you to see it, you'll go with us next time". Excuse may be not even needed if Rachel wouldn't ask anyone but Julie to join them. It's not like 11 year old girl is a great companion for a trip with stop by at local drug dealer's shack or anything even remotely shady.

Renee just got her promise ring that day. Some improper, irresponsible actions with Julie, after they promised to take care of her could result with at least tension, or worse, Renee being forbidden to even see Julie anymore and her boyfriend being scolded over this whole relationship. It doesn't make sense either.

I'm backing out of my trafficking theory also. Kidnapped underage, with significant media exposure, too risky to keep them anywhere I think.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Missing Trio’ Rachel Trlica, Renee Wilson, Julie Moseley

Rachel Trlica, Renee Wilson, and Julie Moseley, known as the “Missing Trio,” were last seen at the Seminary South Shopping Center in Fort Worth, Texas on December 23, 1974. Family tells Dateline the girls were listed as runaways by the Fort Worth Police Department for the first year, then were reassigned to the Major Case Unit after a private investigator for the families expressed frustration over the status of the investigation. Authorities have released few details on the case over the years, leading some family members to grow frustrated. Rachel Trlica would be 64 years old today, Renee Wilson would be 61 years old today, and Julie Moseley would be 56 years old today. If you have any information on the disappearance of the missing trio, please call the Fort Worth Police Department at (817) 392-4442.

https://www.nbcnews.com/dateline/eight-years-dateline-s-missing-america-169-still-missing-n1285376

 

[Wishyouknew]

Has it ever been said what part of the envelope the DNA was found, the stamp or the flap or both?
I remember going in the post office in past times and asking for a stamped envelope and the person behind the counter would lick a stamp put it on the envelope and hand it to me. I was just wondering if they eliminated postal workers as the donor for the DNA, depending on where it was found.

Great question! Fwpd is not forthcoming with much information. I can see if I can get a solid answer. Not counting on it. But that is a great question and great scenario.

 

[Wishyouknew]

JMO, with the possible exception of the Record Store clerk, I think the other witness sightings at the Mall were made up. To the best of my knowledge none were ever verified by the Police.

It has been suggested on earlier threads that a lot of these stories of sightings at the Mall have all come from one family, If correct, what is the agenda there ?

All reports of those three sightings came from one person in particular. Why would the store clerk at the record store call Rachel’s parents when he didn’t really know her? He knew her husband. Probably not real well either. I spoke with a coworker of theirs that does not recall them ever talking about that happening or hearing of the girls being in the store that day. Just fishy to me. That’s not to say the girls were never at the mall that day. But all of those reports came from one family member. And on the one that came back to Fort Worth in 81, why would he have gone to Fran’s house? Why wouldn’t you go to police? Are any of these sightings in FWPD’s case file???? If so what was the follow up on them? Are the witnesses verified? I’d love to know that.

 

[Wishyouknew]

I'm feeling like I'm making fool of myself with looking for arguments against my ovn previous arguments but once again, I got some more useless thoughts.
As with everything here: it may be wrong fact, nothing relevant or possibly something, but most likely not the latter.

What's almost 100% certain is that Renee was planning to go to the Army Navy Store to pick up her new jeans (or few items that she had on layway there).
Probably she wanted to do it before Christmas.
She may not know that she'll get promise ring that day, but I'm assumming that she wasn't invited to this grown up Christmas party last moment, but it's likely that with a ring she'd like to pay extra attention to her look and dedicate some more time to do this.

Another thing that we can be sure of is that Renee must knew at least two days beforehand that Rachel's stepson will be spending Christmas with her. 22 of December was Sunday and gift was already wrapped, so it was likely that she got it on Saturday or earlier.
I'd not consider preparing gifts for friends stepsons a normal thing - unless you're planning on visiting the household on the 24rd/35th, or you know that it's a really big thing for your friend.
Whoever prepares a gift is usually planning how to deliver it on time. So none of "oh maybe they'll stop by or maybe we'll meet".
If she would have a plan of visiting Rachel on 23rd or 24th, then really no reason to take the gift with her on the trip to the mall. This would be almost as finding an excuse to NOT visit a friend, no reason for that.
And even thou their houses are relatively close, Renee was 14, so probably already heavily involved in Christmas preparations, and everyone is usually on pretty tight schedule before the Christmas Eve.
If someone is caring enough to prepare a gift for friend's stepson, then it's unlikely for the same person to not be sure if they'll be able to deliver it on time. So she must be sure that she can do it. Especially if she had it with her before Sunday. Saturday or Sunday would be much more convenient time to ask someone for a lift or even go for a walk and leave the gift at Rachel's. She didn't do that.
All the above makes me pretty confident, that it was no last minute question from Rachel to go to the mall. It had to be pre-planned, at least on Saturday, maybe earlier.

Why I'm taking such lenght to establish that?
Cause it seems like first thing in the morning of 23rd, things are already all over the place.

It's either:
A) Thomas forbade Rachel to go to the mall.
B) Thomas didn't mind the trip, and asked her to drove him to the workshop to leave her a car to go.

People close to them should knew enough to make an educated guess which one of these was more likely.
Was he drinking on his bowling nights?
If so, then was he reluctant to drunk drive?
It could be normal thing for him to not drink there, or to seek for a lift from someone - either straight in the morning or after returning home.
Where he was usually eating dinners? At home or out? Or maybe he was heading out to grab some food with his bowling companions?
I know that it sounds ridiculous to wonder about his dinners, butbowling mondays were a thing for him, so he had to have some kind of habit and it's significant, no matter which one of these it was.

I see only one scenario that isn't incriminating for him.

Rachel's mother was NOT at the workshop when Renee & Julie's families started to worry. She was home.
5pm and they're driving to the mall worried that Rachel's oldsmobile may be on the side of the road, not working, with girls waiting for help.
This is already bit weird, right? Family business is all about cars, and relatively new car that belongs to co-owner of that business is crashing?
May happen, of course, it's also pretty reasonable thing to consider: girls are not home yet - there must be something wrong with the car.
But isn't it also pretty good thing to consider that Thomas may know something about it?
How can they all be sure that Rachel didn't call him? How? They can't. They're calling everyone but somehow Thomas learns about girls disappearance 8:30pm?

The only unsuspicious scenario there would be that that he was leaving/closing the workshop at 5pm or earlier, then he was heading out to eat something and arriving at the bowling alley shortly after 8pm. If so, and if it was a habit, then okay.
But ad for the business says that they were open till 5:30 pm.
Not good for a business to close it earlier than some customers may show up.

Btw. One thing. Wishyouknew shared it in post #904 and stated that it's from March 1973.

This is the building in Arlington: link to google maps
It looked like this in Jan 2018:
View attachment 346645
I found that this property was for sale:
View attachment 346649
as built in 1973.
So I'd guess that they made the ad right after they rented office space there?

Anyways.
So this is where the actual workshop was link.
Building doesn't look like it was there 49 years ago.

And now excuse me the disastrous quality of this, but I wanted to do this long time ago, I just didn't knew where these places are/were.
Now, I'd appreciate to know if I'm wrong with something here.
View attachment 346660
Of course, I have no idea what schools were open in 1974, but I just added them just in case (black "x"s)
Since Rachel's home was earlier TT's parents home, I'd think that Debra, Rachel and Thomas knew each other - they may attend same highschool, possibly even same grade school.

So he didn't just jumped into the picture suddenly, and since he and his first wife married pretty young, I'd also assume that she was living in the area too (which would make sense for her to possibly see car on their driveway).

Since Renee's home was just bit over a mile from TT's home, it's pretty possible that Rachel's stepson wasn't just some kid that she only heard of, she may knew him or at least be able to recognize him.

It already clears up some things that I had wrong before.

I dare to make an educated guess that if it's correct then Thomas being seen while walking back from Lake Arlington is as ridiculous as thinking that girls may WALK to the bus stop from the mall while running away. It's be at least 2 hours walk, either after dark or in his working hours. So come on.

But there is also no way that Julie just "ran" into the Renee's house after she learned that her brother give Renee a ring.
I've read that they lived just across the street from each other but that must be the case with Rachel and Renee, not with Renee and Julie.
Julie's brother must take his sisters with him, as he went to give Renee promise ring.
No way that Julie's mom would be reluctant to allow her to go to the mall with Rachel if she had no issue with Julie walking 4 hours to visit Renee in the morning.
So there has to be some idea what Julie was supposed to do or who to be with, till her mom would return from work.

Also no idea if that was the same bowling alley that Thomas frequented, it's just the nearest to the workshop that exists today. Maybe some opened, some closed, but they are not in - what I'd consider as "walking distance" for a car owner.


I wanted to focus on someting else, but making this map took me so long that I have to leave it for tomorrow.

This trip was totally pre planned. It was not last minute. Renee had permission from her parents the night before. She was staying at her grandmothers house that was right across the street from the Moseley’s home. That’s how Terry brought the ring to Renee early that morning.
As far as Tommy’s account after work. Per his account he rode to work with Cotton and Cotton brought him home. You’re good with maps, pull that route up and see if that makes any sense to you? For a man dying of cancer to go out of his way twice that day so Rachel could go shopping. Anyhow his story goes that they closed the shop about 5 and Cotton took him home where Debra was. He took a shower and Debra dropped him off at the bowling alley and picked him up. Now that does add up to the fact that at about 11 he and Debra finally showed up at the mall together. BUT, Debra’s story was that she “guarded the house all DAY.” She NEVER left the house on Minot on 12/23/74. She was the one waiting by the phone. I’ve been told by someone very reliable that was at that mall that Debra and Tommy showed up about 11 together. They don’t recall what vehicle they were in. So many lies. So hard to tell which way is up.

 

[Armalita]

This trip was totally pre planned. It was not last minute. Renee had permission from her parents the night before. She was staying at her grandmothers house that was right across the street from the Moseley’s home. That’s how Terry brought the ring to Renee early that morning.
As far as Tommy’s account after work. Per his account he rode to work with Cotton and Cotton brought him home. You’re good with maps, pull that route up and see if that makes any sense to you? For a man dying of cancer to go out of his way twice that day so Rachel could go shopping. Anyhow his story goes that they closed the shop about 5 and Cotton took him home where Debra was. He took a shower and Debra dropped him off at the bowling alley and picked him up. Now that does add up to the fact that at about 11 he and Debra finally showed up at the mall together. BUT, Debra’s story was that she “guarded the house all DAY.” She NEVER left the house on Minot on 12/23/74. She was the one waiting by the phone. I’ve been told by someone very reliable that was at that mall that Debra and Tommy showed up about 11 together. They don’t recall what vehicle they were in. So many lies. So hard to tell which way is up.

Cotton had chemo treatment that day so he didn't take TT to work. And Debra picked him up at the bowling alley he had gotten a ride with someone and they dropped him off at the bowling alley that night.

 

[Armalita]

Here's a few question's I would like to know the answers to: What was the cause of death of TT's parents? Am I the only one that thinks it's creepy that TT's wives were all underage except the last 2? TT took back his $2000 reward money? Isn't it a coincident that the numbers on said envelope that letter was mailed in were numbers to towns Wheatherford and Throckmorton same towns TT married next 2 wives (Wheatherford) and marriage license's were mailed to (Throckmorton)? I found it odd that Rachel's name was also on deed to house and property in Throckmorton. Why did Cotten's wife say she had told a little white lie about TT's where abouts that day years later? And why was DA so secretive about everything for years? Just a few things that I would like to have the answers too.

 

[Wishyouknew]

Cotton had chemo treatment that day so he didn't take TT to work. And Debra picked him up at the bowling alley he had gotten a ride with someone and they dropped him off at the bowling alley that night.

From his story Debra took him. Debra claims to have never left the house. Richard Wilson saw them at the mall together at about 11 pm.
That is his story about Cotton taking him to work and bringing him home. You are correct Cotton had a cancer treatment that morning and their neighbors said they never left the house that day. Matter of fact Fran came next door to see if she needed some help getting that Christmas party ready. Said she came by around noon.
Tangled tangled webs they wove….:

 

[Wishyouknew]

Here's a few question's I would like to know the answers to: What was the cause of death of TT's parents? Am I the only one that thinks it's creepy that TT's wives were all underage except the last 2? TT took back his $2000 reward money? Isn't it a coincident that the numbers on said envelope that letter was mailed in were numbers to towns Wheatherford and Throckmorton same towns TT married next 2 wives (Wheatherford) and marriage license's were mailed to (Throckmorton)? I found it odd that Rachel's name was also on deed to house and property in Throckmorton. Why did Cotten's wife say she had told a little white lie about TT's where abouts that day years later? And why was DA so secretive about everything for years? Just a few things that I would like to have the answers too.

No you’re not. Tommy’s parents does a few weeks apart. There was an inquest done on his dad. I’ll post the death certificates and you can clearly see it. Do me a favor and try and request that inquest report. They claim it does not exist. How can a legal document that is clearly documented not exist? I find that all very odd. I keep hearing people talk about Rachel being on a deed in Throckmorton. If so I have not seen that. I’d love to though so if someone would please send it to me.
As far as why Fran does anything, your guess is as good as mine. She baffles the mess out of me. I don’t know that she did ever say she told a white lie about Tommy’s whereabouts that day. As far as I know she still has she and Cotton in two places at the same time. I think I remember hearing someone else say she could have told a white lie. And when it comes to Debra and her secrets. Well the keeper of her secrets has left this world.

 

[beubeubeu]

All reports of those three sightings came from one person in particular. Why would the store clerk at the record store call Rachel’s parents when he didn’t really know her? He knew her husband. Probably not real well either.

Theoretically it could be enough to know her by sight, but it takes a lot of crediblity off that sighting - unless he really had some extensive talk with Renee and she introduced herself and explained that Rachel and Julie are over there.
Farther it goes, less likely it sounds.

So on the busiest day in whole year, and at noon, when all the highschoolers and a lot of people hit the mall, and at the record store for all stores (that by guess would have the highest number of young people checking out the records, cause everybody had a day free from school) he briefly spoke (?) to a girl that resembled Renee - which he didn't knew, and in a distance saw a Rachel, accompanied by a girl that resembled Julie - which he also didn't knew - and someone else.

He could provide details that would make this sighting very credible, but it also may be far fetched.

And why would he call with that info? With one of the same reasons that anyone ever did that:
a) he strongly suspected that he might saw the girls and wanted to share this info, as it could be important,
b) he strongly believed that he saw and recognized the girls,
c) he made up the story to get involved in something,
d) he lied with some more specific agenda on mind.
That would be it, from the most to the least likely reasons.

But we don't even know what he said. Was it like "Im 100% sure that I saw them" or "well, I spoke to the girl that looked kinda like Renee and now as I'm thinking about it, Rachel could be standing at the entrance but..."

And if this is the most reliable thing that came from people at the mall, then not enough to take it as a fact that girls were ever at the mall.

I spoke with a coworker of theirs that does not recall them ever talking about that happening or hearing of the girls being in the store that day. Just fishy to me. That’s not to say the girls were never at the mall that day. But all of those reports came from one family member.

This is really personal thing if a person would discuss the matter with coworkers or not. Many, many things could influence that. Only if a guy was very chatty and up for talking about the disappearance but never mentioning that he saw them in this very store - or especially if it was not a tiny one, but bigger, with more than one person on the pre-christmas shift. Cause that would be pretty obvious thing to do: to ask coworkers asap if they remember anything.

And on the one that came back to Fort Worth in 81, why would he have gone to Fran’s house? Why wouldn’t you go to police?

Andy why would you go to the police? It's not like they were slapping their conntact info all over the place. And 1981, not 2021. Even as for today, family members of missing people who got coverage in media - with detectives conntact numbers and repeated pleas to report tips and possible sightings to LE - are sometimes making another plea, to not call them but LE, cause many people still tend to try reach to family instead of LE.
It happens, and it happened a lot more back then.
That being said, they should urge him to report it oficially, cause without that, now nobody can be sure that he even existed.

I've read somewhere that he came to the house, as he just learned about the disappearance and was in the neighbourhood.

Are any of these sightings in FWPD’s case file???? If so what was the follow up on them? Are the witnesses verified? I’d love to know that.

If it is in case file, then following up on it would be to go to the store and ask anyone who could be working on that day if they saw anything, recall anything etc.

 

[Wishyouknew]

No you’re not. Tommy’s parents does a few weeks apart. There was an inquest done on his dad. I’ll post the death certificates and you can clearly see it. Do me a favor and try and request that inquest report. They claim it does not exist. How can a legal document that is clearly documented not exist? I find that all very odd. I keep hearing people talk about Rachel being on a deed in Throckmorton. If so I have not seen that. I’d love to though so if someone would please send it to me.
As far as why Fran does anything, your guess is as good as mine. She baffles the mess out of me. I don’t know that she did ever say she told a white lie about Tommy’s whereabouts that day. As far as I know she still has she and Cotton in two places at the same time. I think I remember hearing someone else say she could have told a white lie. And when it comes to Debra and her secrets. Well the keeper of her secrets has left this world. View attachment 347010

Notice something very very coincidental about the cause of deaths????

 

[Wishyouknew]

Notice something very very coincidental about the cause of deaths????

Meant to say died only a few weeks apart and I don’t believe Albert’s death certificate loaded.

 

[Wishyouknew]

Theoretically it could be enough to know her by sight, but it takes a lot of crediblity off that sighting - unless he really had some extensive talk with Renee and she introduced herself and explained that Rachel and Julie are over there.
Farther it goes, less likely it sounds.

So on the busiest day in whole year, and at noon, when all the highschoolers and a lot of people hit the mall, and at the record store for all stores (that by guess would have the highest number of young people checking out the records, cause everybody had a day free from school) he briefly spoke (?) to a girl that resembled Renee - which he didn't knew, and in a distance saw a Rachel, accompanied by a girl that resembled Julie - which he also didn't knew - and someone else.

He could provide details that would make this sighting very credible, but it also may be far fetched.

And why would he call with that info? With one of the same reasons that anyone ever did that:
a) he strongly suspected that he might saw the girls and wanted to share this info, as it could be important,
b) he strongly believed that he saw and recognized the girls,
c) he made up the story to get involved in something,
d) he lied with some more specific agenda on mind.
That would be it, from the most to the least likely reasons.

But we don't even know what he said. Was it like "Im 100% sure that I saw them" or "well, I spoke to the girl that looked kinda like Renee and now as I'm thinking about it, Rachel could be standing at the entrance but..."

And if this is the most reliable thing that came from people at the mall, then not enough to take it as a fact that girls were ever at the mall.

This is really personal thing if a person would discuss the matter with coworkers or not. Many, many things could influence that. Only if a guy was very chatty and up for talking about the disappearance but never mentioning that he saw them in this very store - or especially if it was not a tiny one, but bigger, with more than one person on the pre-christmas shift. Cause that would be pretty obvious thing to do: to ask coworkers asap if they remember anything.


Andy why would you go to the police? It's not like they were slapping their conntact info all over the place. And 1981, not 2021. Even as for today, family members of missing people who got coverage in media - with detectives conntact numbers and repeated pleas to report tips and possible sightings to LE - are sometimes making another plea, to not call them but LE, cause many people still tend to try reach to family instead of LE.
It happens, and it happened a lot more back then.
That being said, they should urge him to report it oficially, cause without that, now nobody can be sure that he even existed.

I've read somewhere that he came to the house, as he just learned about the disappearance and was in the neighbourhood.

If it is in case file, then following up on it would be to go to the store and ask anyone who could be working on that day if they saw anything, recall anything etc.

Yes that would be the logical follow up. Was it done? Did those witnesses tell fwpd the same thing that was printed in the newspapers?

 

[beubeubeu]

This trip was totally pre planned. It was not last minute. Renee had permission from her parents the night before. She was staying at her grandmothers house that was right across the street from the Moseley’s home. That’s how Terry brought the ring to Renee early that morning.

Oh. Then at least this part started making sense. Even these details are all over the place, no wonder about the weirdness of everything that's uncertain here.

As far as Tommy’s account after work. Per his account he rode to work with Cotton and Cotton brought him home.

Really? That's interesting.

Have you ever heard about this?
Rachel Trlica, Renee Wilson e Julie Ann Moseley: O trio desaparecido de Fort Worth – Detetive do Sofá
This person claims to talk with Rusty, Debra and Thomas while doing some podcast about the case... from Brasil, so it's in Portugese.

Google translated quotes of interesting parts:

"Tommy worked at Cotton's shop/workshop, and was even running the business while he was treated for cancer. In our conversation Tommy told me that he stayed there all day and then went to his weekly bowling league meeting. It was there at the bowling alley (which, by the way, is also very close to the lake) that he was contacted by phone, at 8:30 pm. He then called Debra at his house and asked her to pick him up from the bowling alley so they could go to the mall to join the others."

And later:

"When we spoke, Tommy seemed more honest and more open than the other members of Rachel's family. He said they only had one car and it was the car that Rachel had. Tommy told me that his wife drove him to work that morning, and that he didn't know something was wrong until Rachel's mom called him at the bowling alley. He later learned that the car was found around 6 pm and that the police didn't show up until around 11 pm to investigate."

He included picture of Berry Bowl and mentions it being close to the lake. But it's not. Nowhere near. Another end of Berry Street is ineed very close to Lake Arlington, but it's not where the Bowling Alley was.

I found these ads here:




"Tommy told me that he stayed there all day and then went to his weekly bowling league meeting. It was there at the bowling alley"

Went how? On foot? 4,5 hours? After working all day?

"Tommy told me that his wife drove him to work that morning, and that he didn't know something was wrong until Rachel's mom called him at the bowling alley."

As far as Tommy’s account after work. Per his account he rode to work with Cotton and Cotton brought him home. You’re good with maps, pull that route up and see if that makes any sense to you? For a man dying of cancer to go out of his way twice that day so Rachel could go shopping.

So, the map it is. 35-40 minutes long drive it'd be for Cotton.


Some sense it makes. Parents seem to be so deeply, unconditionally in love with him that if not for the cars they owned, they'd claim to carry him to work in sedan-chair. Surely from the vibe I'm getting, Cotton totally could go out of his way with all the cancer suffering in the morning and even all the chemo exhaustion in the evening, just to keep Tommy as comfy as possible - and lying post factum requires much less effort.

 

[beubeubeu]

Isn't it a coincident that the numbers on said envelope that letter was mailed in were numbers to towns Wheatherford and Throckmorton same towns TT married next 2 wives (Wheatherford) and marriage license's were mailed to (Throckmorton)?

It's not a coincident. If you'll start playing with numbers, they'll play you back. And all that Throckmorton and Wheathereford theories are made by someone who played with numbers on envelope. Even if they'd mean something it'd had to be one or another, and theory takes it all, cause it's just more creepy and it doesn't matter that it contradicts itself.

Am I the only one that thinks it's creepy that TT's wives were all underage except the last 2?

Guys who are unable to attract women their age are always grooming kids. This way they can be sure that there will never be any sort of equality between them. Very popular, classic thing from the old days that people are so sentimental about.

Why did Cotten's wife say she had told a little white lie about TT's where abouts that day years later?

Cause it became obvious that she gave him a false alibi and apparently never regretted it.

And why was DA so secretive about everything for years?

They are either not doing much about this case, just saying that it's active, cause it keeps all the files secret. Or they are doing something, but can't say much, cause that would hurt the investigation. Only they know that.

 

[Wishyouknew]

Oh. Then at least this part started making sense. Even these details are all over the place, no wonder about the weirdness of everything that's uncertain here.

Really? That's interesting.

Have you ever heard about this?
Rachel Trlica, Renee Wilson e Julie Ann Moseley: O trio desaparecido de Fort Worth – Detetive do Sofá
This person claims to talk with Rusty, Debra and Thomas while doing some podcast about the case... from Brasil, so it's in Portugese.

Google translated quotes of interesting parts:

"Tommy worked at Cotton's shop/workshop, and was even running the business while he was treated for cancer. In our conversation Tommy told me that he stayed there all day and then went to his weekly bowling league meeting. It was there at the bowling alley (which, by the way, is also very close to the lake) that he was contacted by phone, at 8:30 pm. He then called Debra at his house and asked her to pick him up from the bowling alley so they could go to the mall to join the others."

And later:

"When we spoke, Tommy seemed more honest and more open than the other members of Rachel's family. He said they only had one car and it was the car that Rachel had. Tommy told me that his wife drove him to work that morning, and that he didn't know something was wrong until Rachel's mom called him at the bowling alley. He later learned that the car was found around 6 pm and that the police didn't show up until around 11 pm to investigate."

He included picture of Berry Bowl and mentions it being close to the lake. But it's not. Nowhere near. Another end of Berry Street is ineed very close to Lake Arlington, but it's not where the Bowling Alley was.

I found these ads here:
View attachment 347017
View attachment 347018

View attachment 347020
"Tommy told me that he stayed there all day and then went to his weekly bowling league meeting. It was there at the bowling alley"

Went how? On foot? 4,5 hours? After working all day?

"Tommy told me that his wife drove him to work that morning, and that he didn't know something was wrong until Rachel's mom called him at the bowling alley."

So, the map it is. 35-40 minutes long drive it'd be for Cotton.

View attachment 347021
Some sense it makes. Parents seem to be so deeply, unconditionally in love with him that if not for the cars they owned, they'd claim to carry him to work in sedan-chair. Surely from the vibe I'm getting, Cotton totally could go out of his way with all the cancer suffering in the morning and even all the chemo exhaustion in the evening, just to keep Tommy as comfy as possible - and lying post factum requires much less effort.

If they really did talk to Tommy then his story had changed. That is the wrong bowling alley though. It would be Wedgewood Bowl. I remember seeing something in another language like that and just got so aggravated with it that I didn’t interpret it all. I’d be really interested in what he and Debra especially told them. If they spoke with Debra I will be thoroughly and completely shocked because she will not discuss this with anyone anymore. So I’d be very interested in listening to their recordings.

 

[beubeubeu]

So this is where the right bowling alley was:


Interesting. So this finally is something what could be reasonably considered as "walking distance". For a man it should be less than 30mins walk, but not that comfy with the bowling ball, and still bit too far for a person used to drive everywhere.

I'll try to make yet another timeline, even thou it really feels pointless with all the uncertaintity. But since I'm thinking about it anyway I may as well type that out, maybe at least it'll get somehow clearer.

So, monday morning, 23rd of December 1974.



Rachel, Debra and Thomas are at Trlica's home, Minot.
Renee is at her Grandma's, home, across the street from Moseley's, Gordon.
Julie's at her home.
Fran and Cotton are at Arnold's home, Frazier.

8:00 AM - Arnold's workshop should be open.

We don't know who opened it - was it some employee, Thomas or Cotton? Who was there we don't know. Who, if and when arrived or left we don't know.

Rachel planned a trip to the local mall with her friend Renee, but since she had no car of her own, Thomas left her the Oldsmobile that he was usually using. Debra also had a car, but there was no plans that we know of to use Debra's car (could be cause Debra had no plans of going anywhere).

According to Thomas, his fil, Cotton drove him to work. At what time we don't know, but it'd be at least 40mins for Cotton, 20ish for Thomas.
Why Rachel didn't drove him? She could drop him off there and head straight to Renee's Grandma home to pick her up... unless it'd be too early to do that. If so, then it'd make sense to assume that Thomas needed to be there early and with whatever reason it'd be easier for Cotton to do that.

What seems to speak against it is that Cotton had IV stage of cancer and was supposed to take chemo at home on that day - but he wasn't bedridden. Nothing really says that he wouldn't be physically able to do that, and if he did it, no reason to assume that his motive was to do that for Rachel's convenience, cause so nice or so caring.
He may want to check something at the workshop, take something from there, do a favor to Thomas or even use it later against Rachel as a proof of how caring they are - just my guesses, with main point being, that he could have other things in mind, not only his cancer.

How do we know exactly that he indeed took that chemo on 23rd? No doc, no nurse was involved in it, Fran was doing that.
Debra insists that he had, but she wasn't there. At any point nobody claimed that Debra was at Arnold's home on that day, she herself said that she was at Trlica's home. So she could only be sure that he had planned to take this chemo, and possibly that Fran was also planning to stay at home to take care of him, not that it actually happened.

Unless Cotton was always on time with his medical appointments, procedures, medicine and never neglected a thing regarding his health, was always making good and reasonable decisions and always kept his word I don't really get (as to my current knowledge) from where that certaintity that he absolutely did took that chemo. From all what I've read he doesn't look like that kind of guy at all.

All the weirdness I see there works only with the assumption that we're dealing with responsible, reasonable guy who always keeps his word. Then yes, of course, if that chemo was hitting him hard, then it sounds absolutely ludicrous to go anywhere just to give someone a convenient lift that he could get from someone else as well.
But I'm very biased towards the guys that he seems to be one of. He sounds exactly like one of these playing invincible type, who will either totally dismiss all previous experience he had with a thing and assume that this time he'll be fine and able to do anything - or just make a promise, keep half of it, and later figure out what to do next, possibly ask someone else to do what he promised cause "he promised".
I may be totally wrong, or maybe not.

The most ridiculous thing of it all is that all 4 may be lying repeatedly and still have nothing to do with girls disappearance, cause there is no shortage of insane, petty, dumb reasons for people to lie, even in the middle of murder investigation.

What I don't get is why Debra seems to end up as a centre of suspicion despite of appearing the least shady from that crowd.

Sometime around 10 AM, monday, 23rd of December 1974

Thomas is at Arnold's workshop, Rachel, Renee and Julie are at Renee's Grandma's house, getting ready to head to the Army Navy store and later, to the mall.
Fran and Cotton are at Arnold's.
Debra is still at Trlica's home.



To not repeat myself from before, we can only speculate how things went for Rachel, Renee and Julie, from before noon on that day, till today.
But what about the other 4?

4 AM, Julie's and Renee's families started to worry.

Before the next hour passes, they're already calling and asking if anybody saw them.
At 5 AM, according to some of their statements, Cotton felling peachy after taking his chemo, drove to their workshop to pick up Thomas and give him a lift to Trlica's.

Despite of Renee and Julie's families being on high alert and calling everyone, searching for the girls already, as Cotton gets back home at approx 5:30pm, just minutes after dropping Thomas at his place to take a shower, nobody calls Trlica household to notify Thomas about not knowing where Rachel and the other two girls are (while, assumming that he has nothing to do with it, he doesn't have any reason to be worried yet) nor ask him if he knows anything.
With whatever reason they also don't feel like calling to check if Debra is home and asking if she maybe knows anything.

Why is that? Why on Earth is that? Were Arnold's not involved in search yet? Were Julie's and Renee's families unable to reach ANY of them?

Cause that is pretty freaking mindblowing. Assumming that they're all not involved, that they had no reason to suspect that anyone is involved, that it didn't even crossed their mind yet that anything terrible could happen...
You'r daughter's friend parents call you, scared, their daughter went to the mall with yours and (you didn't knew that) they were supposed to be back at 4AM, they were certain that they will be back at this time and they're NOT HERE, nobody knows anything...
And first thing that your doing somehow isn't calling your son in law? Or trying to reach your other daughter that lives with them to ask if they know anything? If maybe your daughter said anything that could explain why they're late? To ask if she maybe called?

How? How does that work? Were Arnold's unaware of anything till 8 AM or what?