Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #147

[HistoryNut]

sooo…. the KAK interviews clearly present the idea that LE believes 1) a_s was involved in the murders and 2) KAK, who admits to setting up & running a_s, was not involved in the murders but 3) TK was involved via his use of KAK’s account and/or devices…

What do we think of this story??
Is this really what LE believes?
or does LE just want KAK to think this is what they believe?
or is KAK just trying to convince the world that LE believes he’s innocent?

IMO, LE believes KAK is somehow involved. There are just too many things that point to that including chatting with Libby before the murders and conducting internet searches on DNA afterwards.

 

[ChuckInHouston]

I would like to know whey they thought that there was no immediate threat to the public?

 

[ChuckInHouston]

IMO, LE believes KAK is somehow involved. There are just too many things that point to that including chatting with Libby before the murders and conducting internet searches on DNA afterwards.

I have often wondered if he was searching DSA because of sharing a phone with someone.

 

[HistoryNut]

I have often wondered if he was searching DSA because of sharing a phone with someone.

I didn’t consider that, but it certainly is possible.

 

[Yemelyan]

I would like to know whey they thought that there was no immediate threat to the public?

I don't recall any member of LE saying "there is no immediate threat to the public." But - I don't remember everything, so maybe that is out there somewhere (I'd like to see who said it and when).

What I do remember is the Delphi Police chief deflecting a question from the press about the community being in danger on the same day the girls were found by saying he thought people in Delphi are "smart enough to know what to do." The Carroll County Sheriff said that he doesn't want people in the county to live their lives in fear, constantly looking over their shoulders. To be honest I feel that these non-answers were aimed more at preventing hysteria or vigilanteeism in the community than speaking to the actual danger that existed.

Contrast that to these statements which paint a different picture - these span the time period from immediately after the bodies were found up until the three year mark:

"Be cautious and careful and be parents...know where your children are and what they are doing."

ISP: Delphi Amber Alert wouldn't have helped

Detective Kevin Hammond: "Things have changed for us all...I am more vigilant with my own children since this happened."
The best of humanity in the worst of times | Carroll County Comet/

Interviewer: "This community has never had a double homicide, Sergeant, from what I understand, and it has been years that Delphi, a community of 3000, has ever had a murder. What do you say to this community tonight because a...killer is on the loose, a double murderer?"

Sgt. Riley: "Well, we tell people, like we've been telling people since this has all started, you need to be safe out there. We are working 24/7 to try to solve this horrendous crime."

CNN.com - Transcripts

Three Years Later: Everything we know about the murders of Libby German & Abby Williams in Delphi
“I can’t say there’s not a threat to the community,” Indiana State Police Sgt. Kim Riley told RTV6 at the time. "We have not caught the person yet. Is the person still in the community? We don’t know.”

"Be cautious and careful....know where your children are....I am more vigilant with my own children....you need to be safe out there....(and then, three years later) I (still) can't say there's not a threat." None of this adds up to "don't worry folks, there's no immediate threat." It's pretty much the opposite, to me.

 

[highoncaffeine]

Oh my gosh I’m so glad that you responded! I thought that you would which is why I’m glad that you did. While editing what I wanted to say on my post, I specifically thought of you! I was originally going to say ‘for you people that don’t have a photographic/eidetic memory’ perhaps you should read this/these media posts, as they are very helpful and quite informative’. And the reason that I thought of you was because in my humblest opinion you, Yem, possess a photographic/eidetic memory. e.g. your response to my post above. I could give you many more examples but IYKYK, and you most certainly know.

Also thank you so much for bringing this fact into the present discussion, because not all of us (raising my hand here, waving hello) have been here since the beginning and/or some of us may not have listen to every podcast by every podcaster, read all of the threads in the media section, read all of the 146 main threads, read all of the MSM article or otherwise, etc.

I know I can always count on you to share with us the absolute truth regarding any and all references to this case. You truly are a gem!

(Always, MOO. IMHO. IMHAspieO. YMMV. JMVHO.)

ETA: the word ‘waving’

I was just wondering that, in 2017 population of Delphi was approx 2950 , If there's any way we could get list of names of citizen living in there we could easy search them up ,by removing name of females it would be more easy for us.

 

[taylorss]

the KAK / TK thing is such a head-scratcher!! My first thought after KAK interviews was that KAK was caught off guard & tried to deny everything just cuz he didn’t know what else to say … then LE seemed to buy his denial so KAK doubled down, pushing “Friend 1” as a possible perp.

I’ve seen this read as KAK deliberately trying to shield TK from scrutiny via red herring Friend1. But with all the stammering in KAK’s first discussions of this, he doesn’t seem to have any particular plan MOO.

Then we hear that LE totally doesn’t think KAK was involved in the murders but thinks he knows who was … IMO I also don’t believe they think he’s so completely innocent. Look at what they know he’s done!! But IMO LE can afford to say whatever they want about KAK’s supposed lack of involvement since he’s locked up for a long time anyway for his CSAM activities. So no reason not to dangle his innocence in front of him & see if he bites & starts giving up info MOO.

LE has said they’re pretty certain two different people were using the a_s acct based on distinct writing styles… I’m not so sure about that. My impression IMO KAK is pretty smart, at least when it comes to putting together lies. Sounds like he spent all his time bothering people online… no reason he couldn’t cultivate different voices for it.

There are also more direct indications of multiple users - different devices logging in & out of a_s in succession, accounts with different names engaged in what seems to be distinct online activities. But KAK tells interviewers that all the devices are his & he uses them interchangeably, & that he is the one who set up & used the “EmilyAnn” profile to trade CSAM.

There are also suggestions of KAK & TK having some shared use of the devices - TK’s Skype acct logged in on more than one IIRC of KAK’s phones, TK’s pic on a Poshmark acct under KAK’s name.

As for TK… “EmilyAnn” seems really invested in finding girls to hook up with “her” “43yo” father (which was like 10 years younger than TK at the time but like 20 years older than KAK). There’s even the suggestion that “EmilyAnn” did at one point get someone to bite on talking to “her” “father,” which then happened on Skype. Sounds pretty suspicious IMO….

But then, like always, it’s so hard to draw conclusions without full info. EG, just how many phones did KAK have? Did / does TK have any phones in his own name? Is there anything beyond writing style to show that different people used the accounts? Etc

Plus the video & audio. BG does look like TK at least in some pics IMO - more so than KAK. But in interviews people who know them have said the voice doesn’t sound like TK but does sound like KAK.

My take I guess IMO is both Ks were involved to some extent. BUT can’t help note that only KAK’s involvement with a_s is established, not TK’s; and that KAK is the first source of the assertion that, despite the use of his devices & account, he himself wasn’t involved…. brings to mind the old Judge Judy line ‘don’t pee on my head & tell me it’s raining’…

 

[TL4S]

sooo…. the KAK interviews clearly present the idea that LE believes 1) a_s was involved in the murders and 2) KAK, who admits to setting up & running a_s, was not involved in the murders but 3) TK was involved via his use of KAK’s account and/or devices…

What do we think of this story??
Is this really what LE believes?
or does LE just want KAK to think this is what they believe?
or is KAK just trying to convince the world that LE believes he’s innocent?

The transcript, as a standalone, does seem to suggest this line of thinking. It's been pointed out that LE can lie during these interviews, though, so who knows. And this is just one piece of information out of so many, most of which we probably know nothing about.

What I put more stock in is the fact that LE is actively pursuing information about the a_shots "creator." Never in five years has LE put out a public ask about any one person specifically, and while a_shots is the fictitious side of this person, LE has good reason to frame it that way, I'm sure. I don't think a_shots is a shot in the dark. Whether the "creator" is the murder suspect or just knows something about the murders, I feel there has to be some kind of connection.

 

[HistoryNut]

the KAK / TK thing is such a head-scratcher!! My first thought after KAK interviews was that KAK was caught off guard & tried to deny everything just cuz he didn’t know what else to say … then LE seemed to buy his denial so KAK doubled down, pushing “Friend 1” as a possible perp.

I’ve seen this read as KAK deliberately trying to shield TK from scrutiny via red herring Friend1. But with all the stammering in KAK’s first discussions of this, he doesn’t seem to have any particular plan MOO.

Then we hear that LE totally doesn’t think KAK was involved in the murders but thinks he knows who was … IMO I also don’t believe they think he’s so completely innocent. Look at what they know he’s done!! But IMO LE can afford to say whatever they want about KAK’s supposed lack of involvement since he’s locked up for a long time anyway for his CSAM activities. So no reason not to dangle his innocence in front of him & see if he bites & starts giving up info MOO.

LE has said they’re pretty certain two different people were using the a_s acct based on distinct writing styles… I’m not so sure about that. My impression IMO KAK is pretty smart, at least when it comes to putting together lies. Sounds like he spent all his time bothering people online… no reason he couldn’t cultivate different voices for it.

There are also more direct indications of multiple users - different devices logging in & out of a_s in succession, accounts with different names engaged in what seems to be distinct online activities. But KAK tells interviewers that all the devices are his & he uses them interchangeably, & that he is the one who set up & used the “EmilyAnn” profile to trade CSAM.

There are also suggestions of KAK & TK having some shared use of the devices - TK’s Skype acct logged in on more than one IIRC of KAK’s phones, TK’s pic on a Poshmark acct under KAK’s name.

As for TK… “EmilyAnn” seems really invested in finding girls to hook up with “her” “43yo” father (which was like 10 years younger than TK at the time but like 20 years older than KAK). There’s even the suggestion that “EmilyAnn” did at one point get someone to bite on talking to “her” “father,” which then happened on Skype. Sounds pretty suspicious IMO….

But then, like always, it’s so hard to draw conclusions without full info. EG, just how many phones did KAK have? Did / does TK have any phones in his own name? Is there anything beyond writing style to show that different people used the accounts? Etc

Plus the video & audio. BG does look like TK at least in some pics IMO - more so than KAK. But in interviews people who know them have said the voice doesn’t sound like TK but does sound like KAK.

My take I guess IMO is both Ks were involved to some extent. BUT can’t help note that only KAK’s involvement with a_s is established, not TK’s; and that KAK is the first source of the assertion that, despite the use of his devices & account, he himself wasn’t involved…. brings to mind the old Judge Judy line ‘don’t pee on my head & tell me it’s raining’…

Has LE positively said that the audio matches the video? If there were two killers, perhaps not. JMO

 

[taylorss]

Has LE positively said that the audio matches the video? If there were two killers, perhaps not. JMO

They have said this at least once… but everything they say has seemed to change over time, so who knows if it’s true or even if they still believe it…. imo

 

[StarryStarryNight]

sooo…. the KAK interviews clearly present the idea that LE believes 1) a_s was involved in the murders and 2) KAK, who admits to setting up & running a_s, was not involved in the murders but 3) TK was involved via his use of KAK’s account and/or devices…

What do we think of this story??
Is this really what LE believes?
or does LE just want KAK to think this is what they believe?
or is KAK just trying to convince the world that LE believes he’s innocent?

Sorry this is long.
The TK focus is confusing to me.
The investigators in the KAK interview clearly are trying to get KAK to state that his father used his devices and internet profiles but KAK skates around it all. But that was almost two years ago and TK has still not been charged with a thing, not even charges similar to his son’s. LE obviously can’t even put TK online talking to young girls.
Despite that, the Murder Sheet podcast says TK is still the main focus of the investigation, even now, two years later. They repeated that this week going over TK’s work situation. I think these folks are pretty reputable but…I don’t know about this.
TK has a history of violence and cruelty toward women and children. He has a history of stalking and peeping in girl’s windows. He sorta looks like BG…who doesn’t at this point. He had no problems with his feet or his health in 2017 according to his co-workers.
The big sticking point though is his voice. Everybody who knows him…family, friends, co-workers…say that is absolutely not his voice on the audio clip. TK’s voice is scratchy and high pitched. To me that means TK is not the guy on the bridge.
Some might argue that maybe the recording was made somewhere else other than the end of the bridge, after all, LE has mislead us before in this case. I would say, where else is there to say “down the hill”? The end of the bridge is about the only place on the way to the crime scene where you are “up the hill” and want to command someone to go down it.
So just based on the voice in the audio clip I don’t think BG is TK. He might have been waiting at the crime scene. He might be the girls’ killer, but not their kidnapper.
Then who is the guy on the bridge? Some folks who know the Kline’s say the audio sounds like KAK. Others say no, others aren’t sure. Does it look like KAK? I’m not sure.
And where was KAK on Feb 13 2017? We know where his phones were and his devices per the interview but where was KAK. KAK tells police all about what he and his dad usually do on Mondays, but not what they did on that specific Monday, except for the pay for view wrestling match that was at night.
I keep having to remind myself that the police interview is two years old. Police have had that information for two years. Loose ends have still not been tied up and I worry about that.

 

[Justice101]

I don't recall any member of LE saying "there is no immediate threat to the public." But - I don't remember everything, so maybe that is out there somewhere (I'd like to see who said it and when).

What I do remember is the Delphi Police chief deflecting a question from the press about the community being in danger on the same day the girls were found by saying he thought people in Delphi are "smart enough to know what to do." The Carroll County Sheriff said that he doesn't want people in the county to live their lives in fear, constantly looking over their shoulders. To be honest I feel that these non-answers were aimed more at preventing hysteria or vigilanteeism in the community than speaking to the actual danger that existed.

Contrast that to these statements which paint a different picture - these span the time period from immediately after the bodies were found up until the three year mark:

"Be cautious and careful and be parents...know where your children are and what they are doing."

ISP: Delphi Amber Alert wouldn't have helped

Detective Kevin Hammond: "Things have changed for us all...I am more vigilant with my own children since this happened."
The best of humanity in the worst of times | Carroll County Comet/

Interviewer: "This community has never had a double homicide, Sergeant, from what I understand, and it has been years that Delphi, a community of 3000, has ever had a murder. What do you say to this community tonight because a...killer is on the loose, a double murderer?"

Sgt. Riley: "Well, we tell people, like we've been telling people since this has all started, you need to be safe out there. We are working 24/7 to try to solve this horrendous crime."

CNN.com - Transcripts

Three Years Later: Everything we know about the murders of Libby German & Abby Williams in Delphi
“I can’t say there’s not a threat to the community,” Indiana State Police Sgt. Kim Riley told RTV6 at the time. "We have not caught the person yet. Is the person still in the community? We don’t know.”

"Be cautious and careful....know where your children are....I am more vigilant with my own children....you need to be safe out there....(and then, three years later) I (still) can't say there's not a threat." None of this adds up to "don't worry folks, there's no immediate threat." It's pretty much the opposite, to me.

I think "No IMMEDIATE Threat to the Community" means that this was a killing in a secluded spot and it's not like someone is on a rampage killing spree trying to carjack etc.

 

[HistoryNut]

I don't recall any member of LE saying "there is no immediate threat to the public." But - I don't remember everything, so maybe that is out there somewhere (I'd like to see who said it and when).

What I do remember is the Delphi Police chief deflecting a question from the press about the community being in danger on the same day the girls were found by saying he thought people in Delphi are "smart enough to know what to do." The Carroll County Sheriff said that he doesn't want people in the county to live their lives in fear, constantly looking over their shoulders. To be honest I feel that these non-answers were aimed more at preventing hysteria or vigilanteeism in the community than speaking to the actual danger that existed.

Contrast that to these statements which paint a different picture - these span the time period from immediately after the bodies were found up until the three year mark:

"Be cautious and careful and be parents...know where your children are and what they are doing."

ISP: Delphi Amber Alert wouldn't have helped

Detective Kevin Hammond: "Things have changed for us all...I am more vigilant with my own children since this happened."
The best of humanity in the worst of times | Carroll County Comet/

Interviewer: "This community has never had a double homicide, Sergeant, from what I understand, and it has been years that Delphi, a community of 3000, has ever had a murder. What do you say to this community tonight because a...killer is on the loose, a double murderer?"

Sgt. Riley: "Well, we tell people, like we've been telling people since this has all started, you need to be safe out there. We are working 24/7 to try to solve this horrendous crime."

CNN.com - Transcripts

Three Years Later: Everything we know about the murders of Libby German & Abby Williams in Delphi
“I can’t say there’s not a threat to the community,” Indiana State Police Sgt. Kim Riley told RTV6 at the time. "We have not caught the person yet. Is the person still in the community? We don’t know.”

"Be cautious and careful....know where your children are....I am more vigilant with my own children....you need to be safe out there....(and then, three years later) I (still) can't say there's not a threat." None of this adds up to "don't worry folks, there's no immediate threat." It's pretty much the opposite, to me.

"Be cautious and careful and be parents...know where your children are and what they are doing."
This statement leads me to believe that early on, the authorities suspected the girls had been lured to the bridge by an internet predator.

 

[Yemelyan]

I think "No IMMEDIATE Threat to the Community" means that this was a killing in a secluded spot and it's not like someone is on a rampage killing spree trying to carjack etc.

I would agree with this, actually...I didn't hear anyone use the exact words that there was no immediate threat, but the posture of the officers who said things like "be parents" and "members of our community are smart enough to know what to do" were reflective of the fact that you could likely continue to work, shop, go to school, etc in this community without being gunned down by a rampage killer. It wasn't that type of crime. Telling the community "there is an immediate threat to everyone" could have led to unnecessary hysteria or even cases where people were accusing innocent people and taking "justice" into their own hands, etc.

 

[HistoryNut]

I would agree with this, actually...I didn't hear anyone use the exact words that there was no immediate threat, but the posture of the officers who said things like "be parents" and "members of our community are smart enough to know what to do" were reflective of the fact that you could likely continue to work, shop, go to school, etc in this community without being gunned down by a rampage killer. It wasn't that type of crime. Telling the community "there is an immediate threat to everyone" could have led to unnecessary hysteria or even cases where people were accusing innocent people and taking "justice" into their own hands, etc.

While I agree that issuing a warning could have led to vigilance justice, according to the recently released FBI document, the killer took trophies and staged the bodies - two signs that he may be a serial killer. If that's the case, everyone was in danger.

 

[Yemelyan]

While I agree that issuing a warning could have led to vigilance justice, according to the recently released FBI document, the killer took trophies and staged the bodies - two signs that he may be a serial killer. If that's the case, everyone was in danger.

I disagree that "everyone" would have been in danger, as serial killers (if that's what this was) usually have a specific victimology or at least, a preferred method of doing what they do that fulfils a psychological need. So the type of killer who killed teen girls in the woods and took trophies is not likely to show up at the grocery store and shoot everyone in sight, for example. But, it's also true that LE can't predict the future or every situation, which is why they generally have protocols that dictate what they say to the community about risk. Their job is to keep the peace and part of that is not inducing panic. The warning they give the public about an active shooter, for example, has to have a different level of urgency.

Regardless, my original point was that, while they didn't say "don't worry, everyone! There's no immediate threat!", neither was it appropriate to say "Everyone go inside, lock your doors, and don't come out until we give the all-clear." What they actually said did indicate that there was a level of risk - be careful. Be cautious. Know where your kids are and what they are doing. We haven't caught this person who did this horrendous thing, so he could still be around.

JMO.

 

[JnRyan]

That whole 2019 presser IMO was written by an FBI profiler and delivered poorly. They Don't know. They have a whole bunch of small pieces, but nothing to tie them all together. If you ask me, they spent way too much time on RL, because the crime scene being on his property. Being a drunk and and A-hole, does not make you a murder, and he would have to been real stupid not to try to hide the bodies in the middle of the night, or even when it happened being that he was already on his own property. The KK info came in relatively early, but probably took a while to sort out, but all it got them was a bunch of pedos. I've said it a thousand times. Those types run in circles. They gravitate towards people like them who won't judge them. It is very Likely, that the perp is somewhere in all of KK's online sharing of CP. The thing is, he may not actually know them personally, but only online. For my $ he was sharing the account with others. Maybe not TK. It could have been the guy he lived in vegas with as that dude also lived close to him in Peru. I think they would have been better off not releasing the sketches or the audio. It has been more of a distraction than a tool. The video is worthless except to accept it as it is viewed in its original form. I do agree, that someone recognizes BG. They have probably long ago tipped LE, and maybe even brought them some comparison pics etc. I thing they have a good idea who it is, but just don't have the evidence.

Almost in agreement with this except LE having a good idea who it is. (One never knows, though. In the Teresa Butler missing person when LE finally made an arrest many years later, we learned that person had been LE's sole suspect in the very beginning.) I do, HOWEVER, believe LE possibly has a list of upwards of a few dozen persons and the list is probably divided by probability. If so, the list is dynamic and changes over time. Bill Thomas, the brother of Cathy Thomas, one of the Colonial Parkway killer victims, stated that the FBI told him they a list of approx. 150 suspects or POI's and still no arrest.

 

[M. Kay]

This very early story (Googled from JC linked below) may be the message I very loosely remembered, re: should the people of Delphi be concerned for their safety...
Two bodies found near Delphi shocks residents
--Delphi Police Chief Steve Mullins said he'd let the community members decide how they should react to the news about the two bodies.

Many people still mention now how open the community once was, but no more. Security is understandably uppermost in their way of life, so surely not discounting feeling the threat then & now. All a part of the sadness...

 

[MistyWaters]

This very early story (Googled from JC linked below) may be the message I very loosely remembered, re: should the people of Delphi be concerned for their safety...
Two bodies found near Delphi shocks residents
--Delphi Police Chief Steve Mullins said he'd let the community members decide how they should react to the news about the two bodies.

Many people still mention now how open the community once was, but no more. Security is understandably uppermost in their way of life, so surely not discounting feeling the threat then & now. All a part of the sadness...

The other thing is as Delphi was a small community, so I really doubt locals were awaiting anxiously for direction from LE to be published in some national rag. Town hall meetings were held, LE went door to door, self-defence courses were offered and most likely anyone who wanted to walk down the street into the local police station could do so and talk face-to-face to the Chief or his Deputies. Small towns, population less than 4000, are much different than bigger cities where the only means of (impersonal) communication to the hundreds of thousands is through mass media. People of any town with an unsolved murder on the books are smart enough to realize they must practise caution.

Everyone knew there was not a rampage shooter running lose throughout Delphi or the trails because the girls went missing the day before their bodies were found and there was no subsequent killings that prior day. Would it have been reasonable for LE to ask people to stay hidden inside their houses and if so, when would it ever be considered safe enough to have let them out? Schools shut down, businesses closed, that doesn’t happen unless some kind of active high risk threat is known to be present. JMO

 

[BNA]

I would like to know whey they thought that there was no immediate threat to the public?

I have always assumed, and still do, that they said that right after they figured out who did it.