TX - Uvalde; Robb Elementary, 19 children and 3 adults killed, shooter dead, 24 MAY 2022 #3

[Dotta]

REVEALED: Teacher's 911 call from inside Uvalde elementary school

Audibly hysterical, the unnamed teacher can be heard begging for help in the harrowing clip - all while deafening shots fired by teenage gunman Salvador Ramos ring out in the background.

www-dailymail-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Governor Abbott did not lie. He was lied to, just like the rest of us.
Abbott has gone to great lengths to investigate the lies coming from the Uvalde ISD chief and other local officials who pushed the early narrative of brave officers rushing to eliminate the threat. MOO

Thank you. I wasn't aware of that. Do you have a link to any news articles regarding this investigation?

 

[Arkay]

IMO, there must be more than one video at play here. Personally, I only watched the 1-hour and 22-minute length video released by KVUE/ABC (YouTube posted up-thread) and this video did not depict any parent/officer being detained or restrained as described above.

This picture is from the Daily Mail link that I had posted, to which you are responding.

The caption to this photo says that the circled officer is the father of one of the little girls who being slaughtered while he, as a police officer, was allegedly told not to go further. The caption says he is being "restrained" by his fellow officers.

To me it appears that he is being gently restrained in a brotherly manner by his colleagues. Not in a very overt and vigorous way.

IMO that would be the right thing to do if they somehow knew his daughter was already dead, and they didn't want him to rush in and get killed as well.

However, I vehemently disagree with the notion of restraining him under the circumstances that appear to be true. He must have been there for most if not all of the attack and they didn't seem to know for certain at that point if he could have rescued her. And to try to rescue the other innocents, as well.

Of course I am not LE but cannot possibly conceive that if I were him, I would not flee these gentle restraints and breach that classroom as a father and a cop. I fear that intense pressure was put on him not to charge ahead.

All the parents are in unendurable pain, but IMO he's suffering twice over...as a father so near to his child, yet rendered helpless for whatever reason---and then as a LE officer who was apparently not allowed to help.

Jmo

 

[Leve]

I keep thinking about the kids in room 111.

Teachers were trained to tell kids to lay under their desks and pretend to be asleep. That would only be effective if the room was secured. Room 111 had two doors. 1 double door into room 112 and one to the hallway. Kids in room 111 should have been told to run since there was no way to secure the room. Lesson learned from Sandyhook.

I know it all happened in seconds but from the teacher's interviews. The doors between the 2 rooms were closed and that's where the shooter entered. He also said the kids had time to get under the desks/ tables.

I don't know if it would have made a difference but every child died in room 111 but not 112. Kids in 112 were up moving around when he started shooting not laying on the floor.

 

[kaen]

I keep thinking about the kids in room 111.

Teachers were trained to tell kids to lay under their desks and pretend to be asleep. That would only be effective if the room was secured. Room 111 had two doors. 1 double door into room 112 and one to the hallway. Kids in room 111 should have been told to run since there was no way to secure the room. Lesson learned from Sandyhook.

I know it all happened in seconds but from the teacher's interviews. The doors between the 2 rooms were closed and that's where the shooter entered. He also said the kids had time to get under the desks/ tables.

I don't know if it would have made a difference but every child died in room 111 but not 112. Kids in 112 were up moving around when he started shooting not laying on the floor.

You make a number of good points about the kids being on the ground and under the desks..... this strategy would have worked if the door was locked (fixed and locked, rather). The only place to run would have been to 112 through the adjoining door (I think it might be a shared bathroom?) which would have caused a logjam. Once that door was breached these kids in 111 had very few options. The classrooms didn't have doors to the outside.

It is hard to say what would have happened had they been up and moving. The biggest issue in both classrooms was the elapsed time between being shot and rescued. Unfortunately, we may never know who might have survived. One girl in 112 saved herself by being very still and putting her friends blood on herself. IIRC, some of the students in 111 were IEP designated which means there could have been any number of them who might not be able to run like he!!.

I keep going back to the door lock and the elapsed time with no gunman confrontation. These are key. There is no way to train young children to think with really higher order skills that are needed to maneuver your way through a life and death crisis.

 

[Leve]

This picture is from the Daily Mail link that I had posted, to which you are responding.

The caption to this photo says that the circled officer is the father of one of the little girls who being slaughtered while he, as a police officer, was allegedly told not to go further. The caption says he is being "restrained" by his fellow officers.

To me it appears that he is being gently restrained in a brotherly manner by his colleagues. Not in a very overt and vigorous way.

IMO that would be the right thing to do if they somehow knew his daughter was already dead, and they didn't want him to rush in and get killed as well.

However, I vehemently disagree with the notion of restraining him under the circumstances that appear to be true. He must have been there for most if not all of the attack and they didn't seem to know for certain at that point if he could have rescued her. And to try to rescue the other innocents, as well.

Of course I am not LE but cannot possibly conceive that if I were him, I would not flee these gentle restraints and breach that classroom as a father and a cop. I fear that intense pressure was put on him not to charge ahead.

All the parents are in unendurable pain, but IMO he's suffering twice over...as a father so near to his child, yet rendered helpless for whatever reason---and then as a LE officer who was apparently not allowed to help.

Jmo

I think this is after they got in the room. He didn't need to see his daughter at that point and I'm sure they were worried he would disturb the crime scene.

 

[UnderWhelmed405]

Idk if we’ll ever get it, but I am curious about the toxicology report. I just can’t get past motive or lack thereof besides wanting to be “famous”.

 

[Arkay]

Uvalde cop seen checking his phone is HUSBAND of slain teacher

A Texas politician revealed that the Uvalde cop seen checking his phone in the early stages of the Robb Elementary School massacre is the husband of one of the victims.

www.dailymail.co.uk

So the officer "caught" looking at his phone turns out to be the husband of a dying teacher who had called him to say she was shot. The article states that he was stripped of his weapon and made to leave the scene.

That makes two LE in the hallway who had family members shot.

I think this is after they got in the room. He didn't need to see his daughter at that point and I'm sure they were worried he would disturb the crime scene.

Yes, that picture that I linked is at the very end, but this officer whose daughter was killed was there long before the end, and according to this article and others, was crying and gesticulating, but was being held back by the other officers. Again, this is before it was too late, or at least before they knew for sure that it was too late.

Incomprehensible and inhumane, IMO. And certainly ineffective, as we've regretfully seen.

 

[Luna20]

Thanks! I had seen that and wondered if he was the parent officer I had read about earlier. I just don't get it. How did all those good guys with guns fail to confront a lone gunman loose in an elementary school classroom full of children & teachers? I've even wondered if a female officer would have made a difference? Because I can't imagine, as a Mother, not trying to save kids if I was armed. I also can't imagine how these officers can live with themselves. This needs to be studied. The amounts we spend on LE and weaponry for LE yet they still fail to act as they, what, feel outgunned, even with that # of officers & guns & shields.

True it does need to be studied. When you consider the amount of guns LE had collectively to the shooters 2, it’s unfathomable. As well as the amount of LE persons compared to the lone shooter, makes no sense.

 

[Luna20]

The man wearing the blue latex gloves is mentioned in a couple of different articles but not named. Maybe a paramedic?

“At 12:41, a man wearing blue rubber gloves and a black shirt, khaki pants and a black baseball cap, with a stethoscope around his neck, arrives and speaks to officers. Other paramedics arrive with supplies. Two officers in camouflage fist-bump each other.”

Exclusive video from inside Uvalde school shows officers' delayed response to mass shooting


12:48 pm
“Everybody heads up," someone is heard saying, before a man wearing surgical gloves and a stethoscope appears to give directions to officers. The individual doesn't appear to have a gun and isn't wearing any ballistic gear.

Fist bumps and stopping for hand sanitizer: Leaked Uvalde video shows SHOCKING police inaction

He seems very aggressive in his direction to LE. How and why was he instructing them? It appears he stood in the hallway with no protection acting like he was the man in charge. Maybe his heightened testosterone was driving his ego at the moment because there was no good reason for him to take over.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

Off Topic (but not)

If any of you haven't read "Nineteen Minutes" by Jodi Picoult - I highly recommend it.

Nineteen Minutes tells the story of a mass shooting at Sterling High School, which takes place in 2007 in New Hampshire, America. It follows Peter Houghton's massacre through the grounds of his school after enduring years of brutal bullying by his peers.

Excerpt:

In nineteen minutes, you can mow the front lawn; color your hair; watch a third of a hockey game. In nineteen minutes, you can bake scones or get a tooth filled by a dentist; you can fold laundry for a family of five.
Nineteen minutes is how long it took the Tennessee Titans to sell out of tickets to the playoffs. It’s the amount of time it takes to listen to the Yes song Close to the Edge. It’s the length of a sitcom, minus the commercials. It’s the driving distance from the Vermont border to the town of Sterling, NH.
In nineteen minutes, you can order a pizza and get it delivered. You can read a story to a child or have your oil changed. You can walk two miles. You can sew a hem.
In nineteen minutes, you can stop the world; or you can just jump off it.

In nineteen minutes, you can get revenge.



I read this when it came out in 2007. It is very good at helping you see into the mindset/lives of teenagers. While these shootings have continued over the years since - their evolution into these horrific crimes is mind-boggling. But, for the most part, THE WHY seems to be a thread that weaves its way through them all.

In order for us to get a handle on this - to really start to prevent these catastrophes we've got to start working on THE WHY'S and how to stop them first.


If you want to read more at this there is a nice long excerpt here:

Jodi Picoult: Nineteen Minutes

Nineteen Minutes (Jodi Picoult, 2007) examines a school shooting in a riveting, poignant, and thought-provoking novel that asks a haunting question: Do we really ever know someone?

www.jodipicoult.com

And you will really be stunned at the end - there is a bit of a "twist" that I didn't see coming.


Ok - back on topic.




JMHO

 

[Wise Old Owl]

Officers involved in the Uvalde massacre may never face consequences because of a web of rules and competing interests​

Officers involved in the Uvalde massacre may never face consequences because of a web of rules and competing interests | CNN

The release this week of 82 minutes of school surveillance video from the May massacre in Uvalde, Texas, is fueling scrutiny over what, if any, consequences officers might face for their decision to retreat from gunfire and wait an hour to confront the shooter inside the school where he killed...

www.cnn.com

Criminal charges for failure to act unlikely, experts say​

It’s unlikely criminal charges would be filed against responding officers – and more unlikely they would stick – over alleged inaction or allegations they didn’t quickly enough kill the shooter, Stoughton told CNN.



Shame.........................We'll just have to wait to find out when, and if, any of the agencies or the state manage to some way to hold those accountable for what they DID NOT do. These officers might not even loose their jobs - which is scary - would you want one of them to show up if you have an armed intruder in your house?

I don't know what the answer is but I would not call a lot of those officers that stood around in that hallway men. At least not men of character.


JMHO

 

[Seattle1]

Officers involved in the Uvalde massacre may never face consequences because of a web of rules and competing interests​

Officers involved in the Uvalde massacre may never face consequences because of a web of rules and competing interests | CNN

The release this week of 82 minutes of school surveillance video from the May massacre in Uvalde, Texas, is fueling scrutiny over what, if any, consequences officers might face for their decision to retreat from gunfire and wait an hour to confront the shooter inside the school where he killed...

www.cnn.com

Criminal charges for failure to act unlikely, experts say​

It’s unlikely criminal charges would be filed against responding officers – and more unlikely they would stick – over alleged inaction or allegations they didn’t quickly enough kill the shooter, Stoughton told CNN.



Shame.........................We'll just have to wait to find out when, and if, any of the agencies or the state manage to some way to hold those accountable for what they DID NOT do. These officers might not even loose their jobs - which is scary - would you want one of them to show up if you have an armed intruder in your house?

I don't know what the answer is but I would not call a lot of those officers that stood around in that hallway men. At least not men of character.


JMHO

I think the best the community and families will be able to hope for is civil charges and settlements.

Since the 2005 Supreme Court decision, we've long been hearing that the police do not have a constitutional duty to protect a person from harm, even a woman who had obtained a court-issued protective order against a violent husband, making an arrest mandatory for a violation.

I recently checked my own state's statute for Safe School plans and requirements and was not surprised to see the following included in the legislation:

(b) A first responder agency and its officers, agents, and employees are not liable for any act, or failure to act, under this subsection unless a first responder agency and its officers, agents, and employees acted with willful disregard.

RCW 28A.320.125: Safe school plans—Requirements—Duties of school districts and schools—Drills—Rules—First responder agencies.

 

[kaen]

Officers involved in the Uvalde massacre may never face consequences because of a web of rules and competing interests​

Officers involved in the Uvalde massacre may never face consequences because of a web of rules and competing interests | CNN

The release this week of 82 minutes of school surveillance video from the May massacre in Uvalde, Texas, is fueling scrutiny over what, if any, consequences officers might face for their decision to retreat from gunfire and wait an hour to confront the shooter inside the school where he killed...

www.cnn.com

Criminal charges for failure to act unlikely, experts say​

It’s unlikely criminal charges would be filed against responding officers – and more unlikely they would stick – over alleged inaction or allegations they didn’t quickly enough kill the shooter, Stoughton told CNN.



Shame.........................We'll just have to wait to find out when, and if, any of the agencies or the state manage to some way to hold those accountable for what they DID NOT do. These officers might not even loose their jobs - which is scary - would you want one of them to show up if you have an armed intruder in your house?

I don't know what the answer is but I would not call a lot of those officers that stood around in that hallway men. At least not men of character.


JMHO

It will be interesting to see if the Parkland officer (Scot Peterson) who has been charged with felony neglect is held accountable on those charges. This case could be a model for holding LE accountable when they don't perform their duties. It would be at least something.

 

[Dotta]

Sorry, but I don't understand.

So,
whose task is to defend kids and staff at school in case of shooting?

Should a school hire its own army?

 

[PrairieWind]

Sorry, but I don't understand.

So,
whose task is to defend kids and staff at school in case of shooting?

Should a school hire its own army?

Statutes just need to be changed to require LE to rescue kids in a school, etc etc.
I never thought there could be criminal charges against these officers. Civil suits will be filed of course and settled. I suspect some parents will not settle early so they can use the case to obtain more discovery. But I think one of the biggest outcomes should be the firing of some of the LE officers, those in charge at the scene certainly, and requirements for new policies and training. This just CAN'T happen.

 

[Hope32]

Uvalde cop seen checking his phone is HUSBAND of slain teacher

A Texas politician revealed that the Uvalde cop seen checking his phone in the early stages of the Robb Elementary School massacre is the husband of one of the victims.

www.dailymail.co.uk

So the officer "caught" looking at his phone turns out to be the husband of a dying teacher who had called him to say she was shot. The article states that he was stripped of his weapon and made to leave the scene.

That makes two LE in the hallway who had family members shot.


Yes, that picture that I linked is at the very end, but this officer whose daughter was killed was there long before the end, and according to this article and others, was crying and gesticulating, but was being held back by the other officers. Again, this is before it was too late, or at least before they knew for sure that it was too late.

Incomprehensible and inhumane, IMO. And certainly ineffective, as we've regretfully seen.

The officer in question I did not mind checking his phone. All he did was pull it out check and put it away. That's reasonable to me as it could have been advice or notice from a colleague or someone else. The one that makes me the most upset was the one I think in red plaid that actually responded to a message.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

Uvalde CISD​

Loyal and True


NOTICE THE MOTTOS - TO PROTECT AND SERVE!!! & LOYAL & TRUE

But what they didn't add was to protect and serve who? And who exactly are they loyal & true to?


Enough said?



JMHO


I am just so thoroughly disgusted and afraid for all our citizens with what has happened and how it is being handled. Guess they are certainly protecting their own (as well as being loyal & true) now - hmmmm?



Ok - rant over

 

[Doghairrules]

I just watched most of the full video. Unbelievable. The lack of children's voices, the complete absence of children being evacuated and guns pointed at an empty hallway are just too much. Every ounce of mommy instinct I have was screaming "get those kids out of the building!" It doesn't take thirty men to guard an empty hallway.

Every man there clearly was looking to the chief ( I'm assuming that was him in the white shirt,) for direction and all he did was hide behind the hand sanitizer. He kept touching his head and looking at his hand, which appeared to have no blood on it. I think he thought he was shot.

I didn't realize that was the chief but every time that man touched his head to check or had other officers check I wanted to scream "THERE ARE CHILDREN HURT AND BLEEDING JUST FEET AWAY FROM YOU!!!" Not one of them showed an ounce of urgency. It's one of the most disgusting things I've ever watched.

 

[Doghairrules]

This is one of the most disturbing stories I've heard since 9/11. I can't imagine. At least he should have been allowed to go in and save her.

Honestly, we all would have been better off and more children would have been saved, imo, if these cowards had just handed their guns and their shields to the parents right outside the door!