University to students: All Whites are Racist

[Paladin]

It wouldn't, but sometimes "less qualified" simply means having fewer, arbitrary "indicators" of success. The applicant from the inner city, commuter school may not actually be less qualified than the applicant from the Ivy League; the former may have just had fewer opportunities.

I don't mean to turn this into an affirmative action debate. I agree it is a complicated issue. I was just saying we can't even discuss it intelligently without some acknowledgment that everyone doesn't have the same opportunities.

To wit, whether affirmative action is "unfair" is impossible to judge if we refuse to admit that the majority candidate has certain advantages that aren't always brought to light in the application process.

In my mind, I think affirmative action should represent hiring the best person for the position, with no discrimination towards race, sex, age, weight, height, and how many eyeballs you have. :crazy:

I'd rather see that than a company tripping over themselves to hire a certain number of people from various races for public show.

 

[Nova]

I think heterosexuality should be private as well. I don't care to hear about my friend's or co-worker's latest conquests or about the girls he wants to "bang", the same way I wouldn't want to hear about homosexuality. As I see it there's no need to discuss sex at all.

You make it sound like getting married is akin to parading your orientation to the world with that being the intention. It's not, and I certainly hope gays don't see it that way.

I'm not trying to sound rude when I say "support" group, but that's what they are. Non-white races, gays, people with diseases and disorders all have groups that are available to support them. And they aren't "sent" there as if we are casting them off.

I'd like to think I'm not homophobic. I don't think I've made any statements in particular that would indicate it, but if I have please let me know so I can address them so I don't make the same mistake.

No, Paladin, I don't think you're homophobic and nothing in your posts here (or other threads) suggest to me that you are.

But you are confusing sexual orientation with sex, as the post I'm quoting demonstrates. Heterosexual sex may be private, but the orientation is "supported" -- quite heavy handedly -- by the culture at large.

Of course, getting married is parading your orientation! That may not be the only purpose of the institution, but the way we initiate it is quite the parade! Sometimes to the point of bankruptcy!

I'm sure you don't intend to cast anybody off, but when you confine discussions of minority orientation to special times and places, that is what you essentially do. Telling a gay kid that his orientation should only be discussed at support groups--or tea parties or paint ball games or whatever--when majority orientation is celebrated everywhere else in the culture is exactly what "marginalization" means.

 

[Nova]

In my mind, I think affirmative action should represent hiring the best person for the position, with no discrimination towards race, sex, age, weight, height, and how many eyeballs you have. :crazy:

I'd rather see that than a company tripping over themselves to hire a certain number of people from various races for public show.

That's a great goal. But in the real world, managers tend to hire people with certain credentials (most of which are ones that have traditionally privileged whites and, until recently, actively excluded blacks) and certain affiliations (often social ones with no real bearing on the ability to do the job).

I don't like affirmative action (largely because it unfairly stigmatizes minorities), but I've yet to hear of another effective way to overcome historical inequities.

 

[Nova]

Whatever power RA's have or don't, I don't agree with them recieving training to pass on that defines all whites as racist - old Marxist definition or not. Nor with pressuring people to define their sexual orientation. They don't have to have power to be a pain, and the college should not be putting anyone in place to ask those questions.


Any sexual orientation is private. People may assume you are heterosexual, but that's a long step away from you being required to define yourself as heterosexual, homosexual, asexual or bisexual, etc.

It still isn't clear whether anyone is "required" to define herself. But as I said above, if sexual orientation is now to be private, we have thousands of years of tradition to undo.

It seems heterosexuals simply don't realize how pervasively you "advertise" your orientation. Obviously, you do so so automatically you don't even notice it. Personally, I have no problem with that. Not until we start claiming that everyone else's orientation needs to be kept secret.

 

[Details]

It still isn't clear whether anyone is "required" to define herself. But as I said above, if sexual orientation is now to be private, we have thousands of years of tradition to undo.

It seems heterosexuals simply don't realize how pervasively you "advertise" your orientation. Obviously, you do so so automatically you don't even notice it. Personally, I have no problem with that. Not until we start claiming that everyone else's orientation needs to be kept secret.

I'm married - which any gay couple may do as well - even if most of the time the governemnt doesn't recognize it - but if you want to throw a big wedding - nothing is stopping anyone from doing that - and I'll attend like any other wedding. I know wedding bands don't indicate orientation - I've sold more than my share to gay and lesbian couples. Outside of that - I see no way at all I am 'advertising' my orientation - not pervasively, not at all.

Sexual orientation is private. People make their assumptions, a marriage may reveal it, but otherwise, it's private.

 

[Nova]

I'm married - which any gay couple may do as well - even if most of the time the governemnt doesn't recognize it - but if you want to throw a big wedding - nothing is stopping anyone from doing that - and I'll attend like any other wedding. I know wedding bands don't indicate orientation - I've sold more than my share to gay and lesbian couples. Outside of that - I see no way at all I am 'advertising' my orientation - not pervasively, not at all.

Sexual orientation is private. People make their assumptions, a marriage may reveal it, but otherwise, it's private.

I suppose you don't celebrate anniversaries, or get mail addressed to "Mr. and Mrs.", or take advantage of tax breaks, or go as a couple to social events. Further, you never went to the prom or played "spin the bottle" as a kid.

The fact that gays in some jurisdictions are finally being afforded the same options doesn't make sexual orientation private, it just makes it more nearly egalitarian in those places.

And, yes, people can live double lives, and in those cases, the "secret" life may be kept private. By the same token, a student can lie when asked about her orientation or refuse to answer the question as far as I'm concerned.

But we're talking about public life here. That you find a public acknowledgment of my orientation suggestive of my private behavior shouldn't matter any more than my assumptions about your private behavior based on your very public affiliation with your spouse.

 

[Trino]

The one "racist" thing that hasn't been mentioned is money. Money is color-blind - doesn't matter if you're Black, White, gay, Jewish. It doesn't discriminate at all: Ellen, Oprah, etc.

 

[rayray]

it's just a damn shame.... blacks fought so hard for their basic civil rights... and they got 'em,, with the support of most of the other races, it seems... and now,, the current generations just can't be happy with anything,, they have to stir up trouble and ruin everything for themselves. and, destroy much of what was accomplished decades ago. they wanted to be included, and equal,, but now they DON'T want to be equal,, they want to be superior, and exclusive. they want to complain and make themselves into victims even when that isn't the case. and then they wonder why many people don't want to be around them... well,, many of them ony want to be around their own kind... and that's considered OK in our society. i found out way back in middle school that they wanted to congregate in their own little cliques and only be around each other. as adults you see more and more groups, clubs, magazines,, etc.. exclusively just for them, they refer to 'black america', and there are countless 'black colleges/universities',, a black TV channel,, etc etc etc... how is that fair and equal, i ask you......???

the truth of the matter is.. no matter what, most of them DO want to remain largely separate.

I would just like to say that I have a huge problem with your condescending use of the words "they" and "them". Are you referring to African Americans? Dinosaurs? Cheerleaders? Butterflies? What?

Also.. What other races did you see supporting African Americans during their fight for civil rights? I seem to remember from my history classes that it was MOSTLY Caucasian people who were fighting against them, and most other races in their journey to equality. I am not saying that all white people are racist, that would be ridiculous. I understand not all Caucasians were against the CRM. However, I see how many people of different ethnicities would think that. Historically, Caucasians have oppressed other races.

Do you have the same problems with Lifetime and Oxygen that you do with BET?
Do you think that Sarah Lawrence and Bryn Mawr are sexist?

 

[deanws]

oh lord. i wish this wasn't posted on here because there i know there are a few people who are going to get really worked up over this and take it as another example of how whites are oh-so mistreated at the hands of blacks.

There are as many WHITE people treated poorly by BLACK people as the other way around. Do you think it only goes one way? :waitasec:

 

[BarnGoddess]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin
In my mind, I think affirmative action should represent hiring the best person for the position, with no discrimination towards race, sex, age, weight, height, and how many eyeballs you have. :crazy:

I'd rather see that than a company tripping over themselves to hire a certain number of people from various races for public show.

Nova:

That's a great goal. But in the real world, managers tend to hire people with certain credentials (most of which are ones that have traditionally privileged whites and, until recently, actively excluded blacks) and certain affiliations (often social ones with no real bearing on the ability to do the job).

I don't like affirmative action (largely because it unfairly stigmatizes minorities), but I've yet to hear of another effective way to overcome historical inequities.

I also believe in hiring the best. We all want the best doctors to care for us in illness, or a lawyer that will win our case. The problem is giving an equal opportunity for minorities to achieve what I'll call "professional equality". From what I can see (and hear), it starts with the very young and an attitude of inclusion. That means speaking the "Kings English", encouraging education from a very young age, dropping the "ghetto" talk, walk, etc. If a minority student is to be successful in life, then it begins with parents who will guide them towards their goal. But, with education set to the lowest common denominator with no effort to encourage and separate those who want and will work to achieve the grades to enter college, then true equality won't happen. I remember the adage in college we were told: "Look to the left of you and the right of you, one of you won't be here next semester". Of course, that was before affirmative action. That isn't to say that there are qualified minorities out there who have achieved their places by merit. I've run into them personally. Two poor Mexican-Americans in our community who had a desire to become doctors, asked one of our banks about loans for students. Wheels began to turn and one of the richest men in the community paid for their medical school in exchange for 5 years of service to the community. My son's math professor (deep South black) was helped by his mother's employer to get a college education and fought to help my white son overcome his learning disability so he could pass math. When I purchased my new Dell computers on line, I was helped by a very courteous, friendly, humorous and knowledgeable gentleman. When I had my confirmation his picture was on my order. I would never have guessed he was black from our conversations. In my opinion, these people and many more men and women I've run across ARE qualified and educated. Oh, I forgot the accounts payable bookkeeper who worked for me in Miami. Anyone would want 100 of that wonderful woman.

Now, I point you to another thread in WS. I'm not condemning or condoning any behavior, but it does make you wonder what is going on in New Orleans these days.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55602&highlight=New+orleans+DA+resigns

Is his firing of white employees in the DA's office racist or justified? Were they replaced with blacks, or not replaced at all? I don't know the details, so I won't respond, but it is an example that we could examine.

 

[SadieMae]

Nova:

I also believe in hiring the best. We all want the best doctors to care for us in illness, or a lawyer that will win our case. The problem is giving an equal opportunity for minorities to achieve what I'll call "professional equality". From what I can see (and hear), it starts with the very young and an attitude of inclusion. That means speaking the "Kings English", encouraging education from a very young age, dropping the "ghetto" talk, walk, etc. If a minority student is to be successful in life, then it begins with parents who will guide them towards their goal. But, with education set to the lowest common denominator with no effort to encourage and separate those who want and will work to achieve the grades to enter college, then true equality won't happen. I remember the adage in college we were told: "Look to the left of you and the right of you, one of you won't be here next semester". Of course, that was before affirmative action. That isn't to say that there are qualified minorities out there who have achieved their places by merit. I've run into them personally. Two poor Mexican-Americans in our community who had a desire to become doctors, asked one of our banks about loans for students. Wheels began to turn and one of the richest men in the community paid for their medical school in exchange for 5 years of service to the community. My son's math professor (deep South black) was helped by his mother's employer to get a college education and fought to help my white son overcome his learning disability so he could pass math. When I purchased my new Dell computers on line, I was helped by a very courteous, friendly, humorous and knowledgeable gentleman. When I had my confirmation his picture was on my order. I would never have guessed he was black from our conversations. In my opinion, these people and many more men and women I've run across ARE qualified and educated. Oh, I forgot the accounts payable bookkeeper who worked for me in Miami. Anyone would want 100 of that wonderful woman.

Now, I point you to another thread in WS. I'm not condemning or condoning any behavior, but it does make you wonder what is going on in New Orleans these days.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55602&highlight=New+orleans+DA+resigns

Is his firing of white employees in the DA's office racist or justified? Were they replaced with blacks, or not replaced at all? I don't know the details, so I won't respond, but it is an example that we could examine.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: That's EXACTLY it BG!!! I have posted before the positions my dad, aunts and uncles have gotten BEFORE affirmative action. They were well educated and QUALIFIED for their professions of engineers, physicians, attorneys, school principals, FBI agent, nurse and college professor (w/3 PhD's). AND they were raised by a single mother in an inner city "projects". It starts at HOME!

 

[BarnGoddess]

I would just like to say that I have a huge problem with your condescending use of the words "they" and "them". Are you referring to African Americans? Dinosaurs? Cheerleaders? Butterflies? What?

Also.. What other races did you see supporting African Americans during their fight for civil rights? I seem to remember from my history classes that Caucasians were the people who were fighting against them, and most other races in their journey to equality. I am not saying that white people are racist. However, I see how many people of different ethnicities would think that. Historically, Caucasians have oppressed other races.

Do you have the same problems with Lifetime and Oxygen that you do with BET?
Do you think that Sarah Lawrence and Bryn Mawr are sexist?

There were a number of whites marching with blacks in Selma. Michael Schwerner, James Chaney and Andrew Goodman were murdered when working for CORE in Mississippi by the KuKluxKlan. They were part of the civil rights movement. You can't say whites were fighting against them. Just because ALL whites didn't get up and march along, didn't mean they were against the movement. Having lived in the deep South and knowing my family's history, I know that many black men and white men sat along the sidewalks in front of the implement store and talked about the tobacco and cotton crops together. My aunts took me to the store when I visited. They also took me to the tobacco and cotton auctions. I saw blacks and whites examining the crops and having huddles before bidding. the blacks may have worked for the whites, but it was obvious their input was valuable and solicited. In a lot of the rural South, blacks worked and lived in harmony along with whites back then. They still do today.

Hey, I confess !!!!!! We hired a Mexican kid for two days this week. Oh my!!!! I assume he's legal. We needed to get about 6 truckloads of hay for the winter. He's 18 and works at the local sale barn on Thursdays. He lives with his mother, sister and two brothers in low income housing. He was terriffic help. Better than the lazy white kids we have had work a day or two. In talking with him as I fed him lunch, I found out he loved to draw and paint. He was going to buy canvas and paints with the money we paid him. I took him today to the people who were going to set up the art exhibition in February and to the art teacher at the local community college along with some of his portfolio. He's good!!!! The college is going to comp his tuition for the art classes. He's a willing worker and deserves a little boost. Hopefully the college will persuade him to get his GED. He's not stupid, just needs a little encouragement to move up.

 

[rayray]

BG.. I never stated that all whites were against the civil rights movement. MY post was in response to Reb's statements.

 

[txsvicki]

l can't see how I've ever had so much privilege and benefits due to being white. No more than any other female race who was not born into a wealthy influential family. Actually, there are many jobs that I couldn't get because I can't speak Spanish, not big or strong like a man, and because I don't know someone in charge of hiring. We all pay the same amount for gas, groceries, utilities, etc. as far as I know.

 

[BarnGoddess]

Originally Posted by rayray
I would just like to say that I have a huge problem with your condescending use of the words "they" and "them". Are you referring to African Americans? Dinosaurs? Cheerleaders? Butterflies? What?

Also.. What other races did you see supporting African Americans during their fight for civil rights? I seem to remember from my history classes that Caucasians were the people who were fighting against them, and most other races in their journey to equality. I am not saying that white people are racist. However, I see how many people of different ethnicities would think that. Historically, Caucasians have oppressed other races.

Do you have the same problems with Lifetime and Oxygen that you do with BET?
Do you think that Sarah Lawrence and Bryn Mawr are sexist?

What I have bolded and underlined is what I thought your posted as a position. If I mis-interpreted it, I'm sorry. It wasn't clear to me.

 

[Details]

I suppose you don't celebrate anniversaries, or get mail addressed to "Mr. and Mrs.", or take advantage of tax breaks, or go as a couple to social events. Further, you never went to the prom or played "spin the bottle" as a kid.

I celebrate anniversaries - just as a gay couple also can, and so far as I'm aware, does do. I get mail addressed to Mr. and Mrs. - but I don't request that - and it's always wrong anyway. Gay people can go as a couple to social events as well - no issue there. I never did go to the prom, but I'm aware that gay couples go there too. Nope, no "spin the bottle". I'd hardly call this making your sexual orientation public though - anniversary celebrations are private, mail arrives according to what junk mailers figure out, social events are a choice whether or not to go as a couple to.


Sorry - I just don't see it. In my everyday life, walking around, you don't know my sexual orientation. At times, at events with friends, family, maybe coworkers, I may, or may not, decide to reveal it - but all this is the same for hetero or homosexual people.

 

[BarnGoddess]

I suppose you don't celebrate anniversaries, or get mail addressed to "Mr. and Mrs.", or take advantage of tax breaks, or go as a couple to social events. Further, you never went to the prom or played "spin the bottle" as a kid.

we're talking about public life here. That you find a public acknowledgment of my orientation suggestive of my private behavior shouldn't matter any more than my assumptions about your private behavior based on your very public affiliation with your spouse.

Nova, I cut out some of your post for brevity.

I just had to think of my parents invitation from two gentlemen they knew for ages. They owned Carnegie Shoes in Little River (between Miami proper and Miami Shores, Florida) for ages. One of their mothers lived across the street from us. When my parents did their European tour they met the "boys" as my mother lovingly referred to them in London for dinner as they were on their shoe buying trip. The invitation was for a housewarming party for their new condo and to celebrate their 40th anniversary. I know my parents never thought about their sexual orientation or wondered about their sexual orientation, but they did finally figure it out that night. It was a wonderful party and neither mom or dad raised an eyebrow. They figured it out, but never flinched. They just joined in and had a wonderful time. It was amazing watching my parents in their 70's discover that their longtime aquaintences were gay. The only comment my mother made was that she knew a lot of strait married couples who could never make their relationship last 40 years. It was wonderful to watch old generalized predjudices just vanish before my eyes. She later realized that many of her favorite young men friends at church, who just adored her were also gay. Did she rant and rave? No, she simply accepted the fact and continued her relationships with these men.

The point is she didn't need a formal class in acceptance or orientation of any sort. She just came to a realization of a fact of life and simply accepted it. She also came to accept blacks as friends when that wasn't what she was taught. A mixed race couple at church bothered her at first, but she came to accept them both as friends also. My mother was getting older and her black and gay aquaintences were always there when she needed help. Something as simple as a hand reaching out can do more for accepting diversity than all the forced classes could ever hope to accomplish.

 

[Details]

l can't see how I've ever had so much privilege and benefits due to being white. No more than any other female race who was not born into a wealthy influential family. Actually, there are many jobs that I couldn't get because I can't speak Spanish, not big or strong like a man, and because I don't know someone in charge of hiring. We all pay the same amount for gas, groceries, utilities, etc. as far as I know.

I can see us having special treatment and benefits from being white. What I don't see is that this fact makes me a racist. I didn't ask for special treatment, I don't treat others differently by their race, just because some racists will treat me better (and other racists will treat me worse, but the white racists are more common than the black racists in this country), doesn't make me a racist.


But - special benefits - studies show you or I will be more likely to get a loan, a job, get chosen in a competition for an apartment, against a minority with identical qualifications, credit rating, etc. DWB is real, and all this stuff adds up to some real differences in our lives and opportunities. There are issues on the other side, that people can choose - such as learning proper English, getting an education, applying a good positive attitude to your jobs, etc. - but there still is a handicap, of varying strength that minorities have to deal with at times.

 

[Autumn2004]

Here's an article I thought fitting for this thread, its a situation in my state, reverse discrimination in a predominantly african american community.

http://abclocal.go.com/wjrt/story?section=local&id=5717937

This was not the first lawsuit in this community. U of M had a lawsuit years ago for accepting minorities over white students regardless of gpa and their applications into the masters program.

 

[Details]

Here's an article I thought fitting for this thread, its a situation in my state, reverse discrimination in a predominantly african american community.

http://abclocal.go.com/wjrt/story?section=local&id=5717937

This was not the first lawsuit in this community. U of M had a lawsuit years ago for accepting minorities over white students regardless of gpa and their applications into the masters program.

Yep, not only can anyone be racist, but all groups have power at some point, over some things.