Australia- Two sisters in their 20s found dead inside Sydney unit had been there lengthy time, Suspicious deaths, June 2022

[AgathonM]

I’m with you about trying to look at all possible options. I’m honestly torn between suicide and foul play. I fully respect your opinions and appreciate you putting so much thought into sharing with us. I truly hope I didn’t come off as “attacking” your thinking, my brain just started rolling at the theories and I had to get it all out!

ETA: here’s a link to one article referring to what I said about their current financials. Other sources repeated the same quote.

Tragic twist in case of Saudi sisters found dead in Sydney unit

Despite several strange turns coming to light, little remains known about the sisters - but police have a leading theory.

7news.com.au

I’m with you about trying to look at all possible options. I’m honestly torn between suicide and foul play. I fully respect your opinions and appreciate you putting so much thought into sharing with us. I truly hope I didn’t come off as “attacking” your thinking, my brain just started rolling at the theories and I had to get it all out!

ETA: here’s a link to one article referring to what I said about their current financials. Other sources repeated the same quote.

Tragic twist in case of Saudi sisters found dead in Sydney unit

Despite several strange turns coming to light, little remains known about the sisters - but police have a leading theory.

7news.com.au

Well I obviously looked at a couple of different sources than you. And no man there was no attacking in your comment, I really appreciate the extra info and opinion. For me I looked into the case because it seemed interesting and now I have multiple theories but nothing can really confirm any of them. But I really appreciate your thoughts. I just want to know what do you think of my theory of how the murderer could have gotten to them. I think it is certainly plausible.

 

[AgathonM]

I can’t stick to a theory on this one!! If suicide why go to seperate rooms? I would be together with the one I’m willing to end my life with. But if foul play, why seperate rooms? Did one not hear the other being killed and slept through it? Moo

The killer might have placed them in separate rooms if it was murder for the mere purpose of confusing and misleading the police.

 

[Arboreal]

Well, this was not on my bingo card:
Saudi sisters found dead in Sydney told acquaintance queer women ‘live in fear’ in their homeland
According to this report, in January this year, a woman met the Alsehli sisters at a "girls-only" queer event in Sydney.
The woman claimed to the Guardian that she contacted police when she saw the photos. She also said the sisters told her that queer people faced oppression in Saudi Arabia and that they told her that they were grateful to be living in Australia, where they could more freely express themselves.
"What’s terribly sad is they told me they were excited to be out at an event like this and that they were ready to start exploring more of Sydney. They should have been safe in Australia,” she added.
The woman said NSW police were certain one of the sisters identified as queer.
Police refused to comment on the woman's claims and also refused to confirm media reports that the women had died of suicide, and that “bottles of chemicals” were found near their bodies.
From previous reports, citing people who knew the sisters, one of the sisters had, for a time, a friendship with a male who was described as "a boyfriend". However, like so much in this tragedy, this remains to be confirmed.
In respect of this latest claim, I would approach it with some caution unless other corroborating information were available, such as another attendee at the January "girls-only" queer event

 

[Charlot123]

Respectfully, they had plenty of reasons to commit suicide. Covid and 2020 were awful to even the most stable people. We haven’t heard of them having a current job, they were facing eviction, had plenty of past trauma, were likely running out of time with their bridging visas, etc. Even typing that I feel overwhelmed for them.
2. They didn’t appear to currently have any significant money. Sources stated their financials had “dried up” and they were 10 weeks behind on rent even before their deaths. I’d be interested to know about car payments. Even if they were behind, if the car was worth more than they owed, which is likely in the current market, it could be sold and used to pay off debts including the car itself. Owing payments could be a barrier in selling it for them.
3. They likely were somewhat lonely. Being in a foreign country with only one other person by your side who understands you is very isolating. We’ve heard nothing about/from any friends. A former landlord is a far cry from a friend or support system. Also, people can be around a huge crowd with a million “friends” and still feel extremely alone.
4. Amaal’s hair is not an indicator of anything for me. There are other posts here stating Saudi women often receive luxurious beauty treatments and can show it off among other women and their spouse. They just have to cover up in religious dress in public.
5. The note. I thought about this, but who would they leave it for? A family they don’t speak to and may be shunned from? Friends they don’t have? A job that is no longer in place? I can see them thinking “what’s the point”.

As someone who experiences depression, even the most basic tasks like getting the mail can be overwhelming and unbearable for me at times. I have a $850 check from two years ago that isn’t cashed simply because I couldn’t force myself to get to the bank for 6 months after the death of my mother. Mental illness is awful and different for all who experience it. I’m not necessarily convinced the sisters committed suicide, but I think we should be cautious discounting it based on the reasons you stated.

Dear @ForensicToxicologist! The girls are gone, and as an immigrant, I have a little bit different outlook on their demise. Besides all mentioned, untreated mental illness, isolation, probably some case of folie-a-deux, there is one thing about immigrants. Returning back = acknowledging failure.

I had a time of being very Ill here. Choose to stay and tough it out. However, if I, with a supportive family, and friends back home, did not want to come back to admit defeat and stayed and persevered, I know how these girls felt. I was not depressed, and yet felt demoralized, and if one is depressed, OMG! They felt at the end of their rope. With no one to turn to.

I wish you good luck. My dad was depressed, he passed away of old age and cancer, I wish he lived now! Anyhow, nowadays depression treatment is definitely better, and will be even better soon.

 

[bfew]

Police .... refused to confirm media reports that the women had died of suicide, and that “bottles of chemicals” were found near their bodies.

So why are other Police reported to have provided/leaked this info (that may or may not be true or false) to the Daily Telegraph?

Maybe Saudi Police did the leaking?

 

[Arboreal]

Thanks man, also I believe they didn't commit a double suicide for two reasons. First the two sister have no reason that we know of to commit double suicide. We know they had money since they lived in an expensive unit and drove a BMW. We know they were not lonely because they had each other. The second reason is because there was no evidence that they decided to commit double suicide and even if they did, in most suicide cases they leave a note saying why they did it, and yet the two sisters didn't. I believe they were murdered because they fled Saudi Arabia most likely because they refused to live by the rules there and decided to live abroad. An indication of that is shown in one of the girl's hair. You can see clearly that it was dyed in yellow and that is not her hair's real color. The fact that she dyed her hair shows that she didn't wear a hijab which in some families in Saudi Arabia is forbidden. There was some cases before where girls were killed because they removed their hijab so my theory is not entirely impossible, it is however far fetched. The other girl was probably killed because she saw the murder. Most likely someone which she already knows from Saudi Arabia. My theory is that person left the country to go after them but waited to kill them for some time so it wouldn't appear suspicious and so he/she could get more info about their style of living. Again my theory is very far fetched but not entirely impossible.

Hello AgathonM
Thanks for setting out your reasoning. That is very helpful. As you might surmise, I do not agree, not only with your line of reasoning, but some of the facts.
When they took the apartment, according to reports, they did have money in the bank. But by the time they died, some reports say the money was gone. The non-payment of rent suggests that. So, at best, I take the view, we just do not know how much money they had. One did own a car, and not a banger. But, as some media reported it was covered in dust, suggesting they had not driven it for a while. How much fuel did it have in it? We do not know
We do not know they were not lonely. People can have each other and still be lonely for engagement in wider society.
We do not know if the sisters left a note or not; the police have not said. How prevalent is leaving a note? A quick google revealed a study that examined Japanese suicides estimated that 25–30% of suicides are accompanied by a note. But that is wikipedia. Another, "Differences between suicide victims who leave notes and those who do not: a 2-year study in Greece", reports that a "minority, varying between 3-42%, of all suicide victims leave a note." I am not sure what that range could mean. So, failing to leave a note or other communication may not be indicative of intent to suicide.
Similarly, we do not know there was no evidence that they decided to commit double suicide. Police may have that evidence. However, if the press reports are accurate, then materials that could and have been used in suicides were found beside each body, suggesting that each acted separately and police are tending to support this theory.
However, I recall reading that when two people who are very emotionally close - a dyad - suicide, they tend to stay together and not retreat to other rooms. However, the rate this happens I do not know.
the honour killing / family violence thesis has been canvassed here. As I've said in some of my earlier posts, I am not attracted to that explanation. The reason is honour killings tend to be gruesome and violent, even if later concealed. There was, again according to press reports, no signs of violence on the sisters' remains.
There may have been a murder by say an intruder and someone unrelated to the sisters'. That of course is possible. But the information released so far about the unit, no signs of forced entry, reclusive life and so on, suggests it is not likely.

 

[Arboreal]

So why are other Police reported to have provided/leaked this info (that may or may not be true or false) to the Daily Telegraph?

Maybe Saudi Police did the leaking?

I think the reports cited NSW police.
I met a journalist once who told me that police will disclose information for a variety of reasons. Sometime is it to energise the community to action; other times to rattle the perpetrators and spook them into action. And other times it is because the journalist has a police officer as a source and its given over a beer; or the cop does it to maintain good relations with journalists.
And, when we are dealing with the Murdoch press, don't discount the journalist has made it up.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I believe they were murdered

me too

 

[Arboreal]

Also have you noticed that there are no fire alarms attached to the ceilings so there is the probability that they were killed by a high concertation of carbon monoxide gas which can be easily made at home (there was a case where a man killed his wife with that method) and the chemicals found near their bodies was only to distract the police.

My understanding is that fire alarms do not detect carbon monoxide. And I had not noticed that. I'm a little surprised as fire alarms are mandatory in all new buildings in NSW.
We did canvass the carbon monoxide theory a while back. Unflued gas heaters can produce it; as can burning charcoal / coal indoors in little heaters. This is one way people produce CO2 in Japan. However, the CO2 theory has not been supported by comments in the press about the necessary apparatus being present and the apparent absence of a gas heater in the unit.

 

[AgathonM]

Hello AgathonM
Thanks for setting out your reasoning. That is very helpful. As you might surmise, I do not agree, not only with your line of reasoning, but some of the facts.
When they took the apartment, according to reports, they did have money in the bank. But by the time they died, some reports say the money was gone. The non-payment of rent suggests that. So, at best, I take the view, we just do not know how much money they had. One did own a car, and not a banger. But, as some media reported it was covered in dust, suggesting they had not driven it for a while. How much fuel did it have in it? We do not know
We do not know they were not lonely. People can have each other and still be lonely for engagement in wider society.
We do not know if the sisters left a note or not; the police have not said. How prevalent is leaving a note? A quick google revealed a study that examined Japanese suicides estimated that 25–30% of suicides are accompanied by a note. But that is wikipedia. Another, "Differences between suicide victims who leave notes and those who do not: a 2-year study in Greece", reports that a "minority, varying between 3-42%, of all suicide victims leave a note." I am not sure what that range could mean. So, failing to leave a note or other communication may not be indicative of intent to suicide.
Similarly, we do not know there was no evidence that they decided to commit double suicide. Police may have that evidence. However, if the press reports are accurate, then materials that could and have been used in suicides were found beside each body, suggesting that each acted separately and police are tending to support this theory.
However, I recall reading that when two people who are very emotionally close - a dyad - suicide, they tend to stay together and not retreat to other rooms. However, the rate this happens I do not know.
the honour killing / family violence thesis has been canvassed here. As I've said in some of my earlier posts, I am not attracted to that explanation. The reason is honour killings tend to be gruesome and violent, even if later concealed. There was, again according to press reports, no signs of violence on the sisters' remains.
There may have been a murder by say an intruder and someone unrelated to the sisters'. That of course is possible. But the information released so far about the unit, no signs of forced entry, reclusive life and so on, suggests it is not likely.

I agree that there are a lot of reasons to doubt that they were murdered like the ones you listed above. I try to make deductions out of the details that were revealed by the police and I could gather from the sources I looked at. I took interest in this case for merely a couple of hours and my reason for sharing my deductions was to get more information about the case in a faster way from people who looked into it before me. I really appreciate your info and opinion on the matter. Thank you.

 

[Arboreal]

Respectfully, they had plenty of reasons to commit suicide. Covid and 2020 were awful to even the most stable people. We haven’t heard of them having a current job, they were facing eviction, had plenty of past trauma, were likely running out of time with their bridging visas, etc. Even typing that I feel overwhelmed for them.
2. They didn’t appear to currently have any significant money. Sources stated their financials had “dried up” and they were 10 weeks behind on rent even before their deaths. I’d be interested to know about car payments. Even if they were behind, if the car was worth more than they owed, which is likely in the current market, it could be sold and used to pay off debts including the car itself. Owing payments could be a barrier in selling it for them.
3. They likely were somewhat lonely. Being in a foreign country with only one other person by your side who understands you is very isolating. We’ve heard nothing about/from any friends. A former landlord is a far cry from a friend or support system. Also, people can be around a huge crowd with a million “friends” and still feel extremely alone.
4. Amaal’s hair is not an indicator of anything for me. There are other posts here stating Saudi women often receive luxurious beauty treatments and can show it off among other women and their spouse. They just have to cover up in religious dress in public.
5. The note. I thought about this, but who would they leave it for? A family they don’t speak to and may be shunned from? Friends they don’t have? A job that is no longer in place? I can see them thinking “what’s the point”.

As someone who experiences depression, even the most basic tasks like getting the mail can be overwhelming and unbearable for me at times. I have a $850 check from two years ago that isn’t cashed simply because I couldn’t force myself to get to the bank for 6 months after the death of my mother. Mental illness is awful and different for all who experience it. I’m not necessarily convinced the sisters committed suicide, but I think we should be cautious discounting it based on the reasons you stated.

Hi ForensicToxicologist
Thank you for sharing your personal travails with us. It makes so much of this very real.

 

[Arboreal]

Dear @ForensicToxicologist! The girls are gone, and as an immigrant, I have a little bit different outlook on their demise. Besides all mentioned, untreated mental illness, isolation, probably some case of folie-a-deux, there is one thing about immigrants. Returning back = acknowledging failure.

I had a time of being very Ill here. Choose to stay and tough it out. However, if I, with a supportive family, and friends back home, did not want to come back to admit defeat and stayed and persevered, I know how these girls felt. I was not depressed, and yet felt demoralized, and if one is depressed, OMG! They felt at the end of their rope. With no one to turn to.

I wish you good luck. My dad was depressed, he passed away of old age and cancer, I wish he lived now! Anyhow, nowadays depression treatment is definitely better, and will be even better soon.

Hi Charlot123
Thank you for sharing your experiences with the forum. Your experiences help fill out what the Alsehli sisters may well have been experiencing.

 

[AgathonM]

My understanding is that fire alarms do not detect carbon monoxide. And I had not noticed that. I'm a little surprised as fire alarms are mandatory in all new buildings in NSW.
We did canvass the carbon monoxide theory a while back. Unflued gas heaters can produce it; as can burning charcoal / coal indoors in little heaters. This is one way people produce CO2 in Japan. However, the CO2 theory has not been supported by comments in the press about the necessary apparatus being present and the apparent absence of a gas heater in the unit.

Yeah I just think it is a possibility since there was no fire alarms to detect CO then it could have been a concentrated amount that killed them and its also why it is hardly traceable after a month of their deaths.

 

[Arboreal]

I agree that there are a lot of reasons to doubt that they were murdered like the ones you listed above. I try to make deductions out of the details that were revealed by the police and I could gather from the sources I looked at. I took interest in this case for merely a couple of hours and my reason for sharing my deductions was to get more information about the case in a faster way from people who looked into it before me. I really appreciate your info and opinion on the matter. Thank you.

Hi AgathonM
and I appreciate your taking the time to say why you conclude what you do. It makes me go back and test my conclusions and the reasons I have to justify them.

 

[AgathonM]

Hi AgathonM
and I appreciate your taking the time to say why you conclude what you do. It makes me go back and test my conclusions and the reasons I have to justify them.

Its been fun sharing theories and deductions with everyone else. Thank you

 

[bfew]

since there was no fire alarms to detect CO

With the building only 5 years old, there would have been the minimum required fire alarms in the unit.

That you could not see any in the pics you were looking at, does not mean that there wern't any, or that the ones their, did could not detect CO as well as smoke.

 

[Kemug]

I would still like to hear from the plumber.

 

[Dotta]

I would still like to hear from the plumber.

I think DM will grant our wish

 

[Charlot123]

Well, this was not on my bingo card:
Saudi sisters found dead in Sydney told acquaintance queer women ‘live in fear’ in their homeland
According to this report, in January this year, a woman met the Alsehli sisters at a "girls-only" queer event in Sydney.
The woman claimed to the Guardian that she contacted police when she saw the photos. She also said the sisters told her that queer people faced oppression in Saudi Arabia and that they told her that they were grateful to be living in Australia, where they could more freely express themselves.
"What’s terribly sad is they told me they were excited to be out at an event like this and that they were ready to start exploring more of Sydney. They should have been safe in Australia,” she added.
The woman said NSW police were certain one of the sisters identified as queer.
Police refused to comment on the woman's claims and also refused to confirm media reports that the women had died of suicide, and that “bottles of chemicals” were found near their bodies.
From previous reports, citing people who knew the sisters, one of the sisters had, for a time, a friendship with a male who was described as "a boyfriend". However, like so much in this tragedy, this remains to be confirmed.
In respect of this latest claim, I would approach it with some caution unless other corroborating information were available, such as another attendee at the January "girls-only" queer event

Respectfully,

1) i think they were confused about everything.

I don’t want to negate a witness’ story because I firmly believe in freedom of sexual choice. I wonder if the girls got attracted to “girls-only” sign?

To me, it seems they were trying to find a niche, a support group, maybe went to a church (crosses), maybe to an LGBTQ group, tried to have a male friend but he crossed boundaries…to me, so far, the evidence of the lady in a gas station (who said they did not initiate conversations, unless spoken to), is the most reliable report.

Forget that they are from SA. Imagine you see our very young adult of 18, who is super anxious and tooth and nail, tries to be friendly? Not emanating the “friendship vibes”? Probably, we all would think, social anxiety? Maybe this is what everyone knowing them saw? If this is the case, I feel horribly sorry for the girls. It was hard of them to make a step. One wonders if they, too, eventually, died of loneliness, feeling that no one cared?

 

[websleuth1111]

This will probably not be a popular opinion, and I hope that I am not in breach of any guidelines here.
I feel strongly that this has been an attempt to make things look like suicide.

Here's my speculations;

-As a female with a sister, there is no way I would go to bed naked, especially if planning on not waking up. The thought of being found naked for most of us would be humiliating. Plus, what if one of us had to get up? Most sisters wouldn't walk around in each other's presence naked.
If my sister or I had a pact, that would indicate they were close; if they were close, they would be in bed together with each other's comfort. You would not want your sister to go alone.

- These were mentally strong girls; to come from SA, a completely oppressive country, on their own and forge a life here takes strong minds. I don't think they would not have made it here, they would have completed their pact before making it here, and they would not go through all of this to end it all. Police are remaining tight-lipped on their visa status- I suspect if they were seeking asylum, this would be kept quiet since SA would be watching every media response; if they were seeking asylum and it was made public, this may put their family at home at risk safety-wise.

- I think if they may have been being funded by a wealthy person (as a form of charity)- I can't remember if I am confusing the case of the HK Saudi sisters or not, but I think I remember them being funded by a wealthy businessman as a form of charity. It would not be far-fetched for these girls to have funding from a charity where a wealthy person gave them x amount of funds or regular funding as charity to help them. I think this would be more likely than the family funding them.

- I don't think they would have been on good terms with their family. I imagine they would have been considered to have brought shame to their family by firstly leaving SA, but leaving their family and not fulfilling their roles as daughters culturally should. I suspect they would have been pretty much disowned and probably hiding from both their family and their country.

-The SA govt may consider the girls as an embarrassment for SA, as women are not supposed to leave home without a male guardian, let alone live an independent life abroad- it is simply not an option for women. And with the SA society considering them shameful, this would also bring shame to the family. So the SA govt/society potentially could want to set an example for them, as could the family (as a form of honour killing). This would make sense as to why they were scared, paranoid and timid. It is a whole different culture, even though it makes no sense to us and seems ridiculous.

-Bleach? The first thought that comes to mind is cleaning when I think of the word bleach! I would not choose to ingest or inhale bleach. There are much nicer ways to go. Being female, I would expect prescription medication as a first-line approach. Not only would bleach be difficult, but you would also likely survive as you probably could not handle the discomfort that the bleach would cause and would probably stop before having the required amount due to pain/discomfort. You also would not want to watch or hear your sister suffer. This makes absolutely no sense to me that they would actively choose bleach. I think bleach has been used to clean up or mask a crime.

We all know how SA work when they want someone gone or made an example for. There have been many high-profile examples of this. They have professional teams that do this work. These people are not going to force entry or leave behind clues. They would not be messy, and they could easily make a death look like a suicide. It does not take much to get keys to an apartment when it is tenanted. Property managers have spare keys that can be accessed relatively easily by the staff in the RE office, by contractors quoting work etc.

It would not be hard to ring the PM, claim to be the tenant and pretend to need something fixed, then contact the PM saying that the landlord has requested a quote for a job- in my industry, often a landlord contacts me, asks for a quote for a repair at their property, I contact the PM, tell them the landlord has requested a quote, they handover keys that we sign in and out of a key register. This scenario happens about once a week in my line of work. Albeit that would be messy in the way that you could risk being at some point identified.

Trained professionals could also have access to tools etc that locksmiths use, and I am sure could access the apartment. The balcony also looks like it would be very easy to access, especially with sliding doors.

Even if they did suicide, how are the confirmed odd happenings explained;

-The man watching their apartment- this was not their imagination, he was spoken to and gave their address as his address.
- Car keyed- (could be a random attack), however, could also be to invoke fear. May not have been random after all.

-Food tampering- what led them to suspect and report this? They would not just come to this worry for no reason. Perhaps they had noticed tampering, or food was not tasting right or packaged right. If they have died from some type of chemical-related death, I think this is important to investigate further.

-If someone had complained that their food was being poisoned and died of poisoning, I would think this is a huge coincidence. And if they had hoped to die, why would they complain about their food being tampered with?

If they were murdered by professionals, it is not going to be a messy murder.


Maybe their clothes were removed and disposed of to ensure no DNA or evidence was left on them. Maybe they were stripped after they died to make sure nothing was left behind. Maybe bleach was poured all over them to prepare to mask the future smell.
I wonder if this happened if it would show on toxicology as being in their system? (I don't know the answer to this)
Or were they stripped as ultimate humiliation to set an example for other women watching the story? Or as an honour killing?
The family didn't want their images made public to assist with the investigation. Is this because they are humiliated, or because they fear their society or govt will identify them and come for them once they know who they are.

If mum did come over, maybe she came over to try and convince them to return to SA, but was unsuccessful. Maybe the girls had to move so the family could not find them again.

I don't think these girls were desperate, they were smart and independent. They had each other and had come so far. They may have been scared for good reason.

Our country would have an interest not to name SA as a suspect in this, if they did this it could risk relations and put Australia at risk of poor relations, which could be very dangerous for national security. It would be easier and safer to make this go away quietly.

All my speculation, of course. Hopefully no guidelines broken




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