ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 12

[Dutch77]

I think the dog part is because, well, people like dogs. But also, there is an assumption that the dog would have barked. But my last dog would never bark at a person, just mongooses! So I don't really think the dog is relevant but I am glad he is being taken care of.

The dog only knew different people coming and going so he could have been desensitized to strangers and didn’t back at the perp.

 

[YepperBepper]

I think the murder rate is down due to DNA. Many murders (esp serial killers) are sexually oriented. DNA obtained in sex assault cases, assures that predators are off the streets earlier. It's hard to catch the perps "on camera", because what they do is so sneaky. When they go to the store, the gas station, the bank etc, they look like everyone else on CCTV.

Exactly 14 months apart. Either that's one heck of a coincidence or there's more to it. Is there anything in the northwest that runs on a 14 month cycle? Something like a military deployment, or something that would shut down at set intervals for scheduled maintenance?

The 13th of the month adds a creepiness to it, also.

If related....a psychological cycle of sorts?

 

[joijoi12]

Clemente is kidding himself & the reader.
I remember when the FBI profilers were looking for a "white" male during the DC sniper attacks.
When they're wrong, they never admit it.
What are the chances that any of the four victims knew someone who was willing to butcher people in cold blood? Doesn't make sense.
It's a random thrill kill.

Totally agree with this. The only thing the profilers had correct was that he could have been former military. Other than that, nothing else matched up.

 

[Jallisons]

Dog significance: if let out before M&K got home, possibly perp was in house already while roommates were out,

My theory is perp came in while they were out, put dog out at that time so as to avoid barking later, hid in house, M&K looked for dog on arrival home which explains numerous calls to co-owner J. Were upset about missing dog but not much could be done at 3 am, retired for evening hoping dog would be home in morning. MOO Another poster made great point that dog apparently did not track through blood, which suggests he was either outside house OR crated when this happened. I think put out by killer beforehand since probably would have had blood on him if wandered around scene and left later through door left open by killer. MOO I don’t think cops would have delivered him to animal control as reported if he had been covered in blood. But if crated, then would not have been wandering around crime scene getting bloody, but maybe barking in morning and worried surviving roommates wondered why owner not roused. That is why dog is important. MOO

 

[dspdenver]

Exactly 14 months apart. Either that's one heck of a coincidence or there's more to it. Is there anything in the northwest that runs on a 14 month cycle? Something like a military deployment, or something that would shut down at set intervals for scheduled maintenance?

FYI, the second gap is 15 months apart.

 

[Jallisons]

I think Murphy was waiting in the yard when everyone woke up the next morning. If not he would have walked through evidence when perp walked from one bedroom to the other. And if he had been out when girls got home, they would have looked for him, not gone to bed. imo.

Therefore...perp let him out. imo

Which then reminds me, did perp clean up in each bedroom. Not if he woke anyone up, so no time to clean up between murders. Then he might have cleaned up between bedrooms after the murders, locked the doors, then left. ??? 30 minute cleanup? or more? He must have left with large bag of clothes and cleanup stuff.

This is a great point that if Murphy had been loose in house walking through the scene, he would have been covered in blood. Kudos to you for this observation. But he must not have been walking through scene because police delivered him to animal control (so presumably not necessary to recover evidence from him). So either outside all night, or in crate til police arrived, I think.

 

[WildWest]

I think the dog part is because, well, people like dogs. But also, there is an assumption that the dog would have barked. But my last dog would never bark at a person, just mongooses! So I don't really think the dog is relevant but I am glad he is being taken care of.

Good point, I've had dogs for 30 years, first 20 years were busy houses and many visitors, dogs were great to them. Fast forward til now I'm in the middle of nowhere and no visitors and they bark at anyone and everyone. Could have been anyone, room mate, guest, perp etc.

 

[Jallisons]

That's why I don't understand. Wasn't there an article/interview quoting a neighbor about the dog barking to the point they almost went and complained? I'm going to search but links are so buried at this point - if anyone else remembers and can point me to it, I would appreciate it. There were 2 different neighbor interviews I remember reading. One of the guys - either law student guy or left for work around 11:45 guy I thought mentioned hearing the dog. At this point, maybe I dreamed it though. IMO

Have not seen those reports. Will be very interested in them if they surface.

 

[JohnBull]

Does anyone know if the victems in Salem had any connection to the University?

Or possibly the perp? It might be that somebody in the area knows of someone who transferred from Willamette to U of Idaho, or, similarly, someone around the U of Idaho who knows of a student transferring from Willamette. University records might indicate this, since they'll be looking at transcripts and/or transfers of credits.

 

[Strong1]

Okay I gonna just throw this out here. We are aware that Kaylee came back to Moscow to show off her new car and to see her friends. What if the killer is not from the area at all and instead followed Kaylee back. Maybe they had some kind of negative interaction, or maybe they just saw a her as a target. I know it's a stretch but just thought I'd put it out there.

 

[pmondrian2020]

That's why I don't understand. Wasn't there an article/interview quoting a neighbor about the dog barking to the point they almost went and complained? I'm going to search but links are so buried at this point - if anyone else remembers and can point me to it, I would appreciate it. There were 2 different neighbor interviews I remember reading. One of the guys - either law student guy or left for work around 11:45 guy I thought mentioned hearing the dog. At this point, maybe I dreamed it though. IMO

It would great if you could find those interviews and link them here. Thanks!

 

[PacoElFlaco]

I can recall several mysterious murders that seemed to be the work of serial killers, stalkers or cults, etc. They turned out in the end to be simple cases of burglaries gone out of control.

What if one or more acquaintances of someone in the house or mere attendees of one of the many parties thrown there knew the sliding door was never locked and planned a robbery?

They enter the house, but before they can steal anything, Ethan hears the noise and investigates, rushes to attack them and is quickly killed with the knife. His is the "unconscious" body seen by the roommates next day. The killer/s then rush in the bedroom and struggle with Xana and kill her.

Upstairs, Maddie or Kaylee hears the fight and shouts "What's going on down there?" Pumped full of fear and adrenaline, the killer or killers run upstairs and kill both Maddie and Kaylee. They are not only known to the people in the house, but now they have also comitted two murders and are desperate to not leave witnesses.

They kill the two girls. As they just came to rob the house, they have no inclination for sexual assault of the victims. At this point, fear overcomes them and they flee without stealing anything, leaving the downstairs girls sleeping obliviously until noon Sunday.

Arguments and rebuttals:

"But it was targeted" - A burglary can be targeted.
"But students are poor and have nothing to steal" - Electronics, jewelry, perhaps marijuana... Young people have even been killed for their shoes.
"But burglars don't kill people" - Nonsense. Many robberies have degenerated into mass murder. Especially if the perps are known to the victims and could easily be identified.
"But burglars don't carry combat knives" - Young, nervous, inexperienced macho-type teen or 20s boys might.
"But the victims were all sleeping in bed" - The coroner cannot tell if you died awake or asleep. Also, they have revised that statement.
"But it was too brutal to be done by a robber" - All we know is they each had several torso and upper body wounds.

 

[wasnt_me]

I mean there’s a million different scenarios, but maybe during a struggle the victim ended up on the floor and the door was closer than the phone. Or maybe there was no attempt to get out and the struggle ended there and then on the floor. I just don’t see another scenario where one of these victims was mistaken as an unconscious person. Why would the killer spend time and possibly spread more DNA locking doors behind them? If they were asleep in bed, woke up during the attack, fought back and ended up on the floor, it wouldn’t be inconceivable that their body was blocking a door from fully opening.

Edit to add: walking out a door and screaming for help to one of the 4, or possibly more, people also sleeping in the house is a lot less involved than grabbing a phone in the dark, unlocking the phone, opening up the phone app, dialing the number. IMHO.

It's plausible. It's also plausible that the victim got out of bed after the killer left the room, made it to the door, and fell, blocking it -- if we go with your scenario. It is a workable explanation for why the living roommates would think what they did without seeing much of the room or crime. The only thing is, if it was me, I would be shoving them so much and with enough force that I'd be able to get in the room.

 

[clearskies1]

I'm not convinced that LE firmly believes that the knife that was used was a Ka-Bar type (fixed blade) knife. At the November 21 press conference, when LE was addressing "speculation, conjecture and misinformation", they emphasized that "early in the invesitgation" local businesses were canvassed to see if any fixed blade-type knives may have recently been purchased. From what I can tell, LE was canvassing local businesses about that issue up through Monday, November 14 -- only one day after the bodies were discovered. Police seek 'Rambo'-style knife in University of Idaho murders probe: report. However, the autopsies weren't completed until November 17th. New details: Autopsy confirms all 4 University of Idaho students were murdered. I think the autopsies would tell LE a lot about what type of knife was likely used and I think LE was trying to clue everyone in to the fact that a recent fixed-blade knife purchase was only an early investigative idea that they were pursuing. JMO. See 8:12 here:

 

[debirlfan]

snipped ^^

I have so many questions about the dog! Someone here on WS commented about the unusual wording of (paraphrasing) 'a dog was located at the home...' or something like that. I can't imagine coming in and my dog not greeting me at the door...or me not checking to see who he was sleeping with....and not waking up the entire house and certainly contacting the CO-OWNER I shared custody with if I didn't find my dog within minutes of arriving home.

It may be nothing, but they did say 'at' rather than 'in' -for whatever it's worth.

 

[saralsim]

Have not seen those reports. Will be very interested in them if they surface.

I'm looking - at this point there are so many articles, I can't even find the first neighbor interviews at this point. IMO

 

[UKUS]

Excellent post-thank you for sharing. I wonder, though, how they're defining 'stranger'. It could potentially just mean that the killer was familiar with, on the periphery of, the victims' lives, but not necessarily a friend or ongoing relationship. At least that is the way I'd interpret it. I think that's fairly obvious that someone didn't just roll up and say, yeah, I will kill these four.

But here's what I really don't get: just because the murderer knew (targeted/identified/stalked/whatever) the victims, it wouldn't mean that same person couldn't be a threat to others. Anyone who has been planning and thinking about killing four people in that manner is a threat until they're not. I personally think it was very irresponsible of LE to state no threat until the murderer is signed, sealed, delivered. Jmo. Even if they think they know who did it (which I don't believe they do), that person could still be a threat, esp if threatened. jmo.

I completely agree and that's had me confused. Anyone who did this could do it again - and right we don't know if they've done it before either. And they're out in that community or a community somewhere. So definitely dangerous. And two of the profilers in the interview say whoever it is would have practiced. I think one described it as "built up to it" with prepping incidents. So right - that calculating person is presumably going to grocery stores, work, whatever, carrying on trying to look normal and on task perhaps... or on the run but police know where? We can't know.... YET

Also agree there are degrees of familiarity but imo the more familiar* the murderer was with the victims the more confidence LE would have in locking in on that person. A stranger to everyone would raise more alarms right, more questions, for LE and the public.
*I don't mean intimately familiar here necessarily but familiar enough like knowing victim(s) movements through social media observation or being neighbor or colleague etc. - being in the victim(s) orbit somehow

 

[Sundog]

Does anyone know if the University of Idaho has its own campus police/security division? I haven't seen anyone from campus police on stage at any of the press conferences. I wonder if the University contracts with the city to have the city LE patrol their campus and respond to calls that originate on campus. I would be surprised if UI didn't have their own campus police division.

 

[Kdot112]

It's strange that we know every detail of Kaylee and Maddie's night and not much about Ethan and Xana.

Or the surviving roommates’ night. They might have the most important info.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

I completely agree and that's had me confused. Anyone who did this could do it again - and right we don't know if they've done it before either. And they're out in that community or a community somewhere. So definitely dangerous. And two of the profilers in the interview say whoever it is would have practiced. I think one described it as "built up to it" with prepping incidents. So right - that calculating person is presumably going to grocery stores, work, whatever, carrying on trying to look normal and on task perhaps... or on the run but police know where? We can't know.... YET

Also agree there are degrees of familiarity but imo the more familiar* the murderer was with the victims the more confidence LE would have in locking in on that person. A stranger to everyone would raise more alarms right, more questions, for LE and the public.
*I don't mean intimately familiar here necessarily but familiar enough like knowing victim(s) movements through social media observation or being neighbor or colleague etc. - being in the victim(s) orbit somehow

Totally. I think this person was very familiar with these young women. *May* have even thought he had a 'relationship' with one. I was working with an incident trainer and at the time having a super creepy stalking work situation. After talking with the trainer about the situation, they told me that oftentimes the obsessed man will fantasize the 'relationship' to the degree that it's 'real' to them, and so the slight is HUGE when it happens. lovely. In my first post, I described the build up and the prep. He is someone they'll likely have seen, and may even be someone who day trips over to Moscow recently and frequently to be close.