ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 27

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They want to hear from people who own or were riding in the white Hyundai that was seen in the area of the murder. If you live elsewhere and your car has not been stolen, I don't think they want to hear from you. Edit - missing word
Well, I do agree with that as well. I am just saying a little clarification might save some time for them. They did say this:


If you know of or own a vehicle matching this description, or know of anyone who may have been driving this vehicle on the days preceding or the day of the murders, please forward that information to the Tip Line.

Ultimately, I understand IF this car is involved AND they want to speak w/ the occupant/s THEY will likely NOT turn themself/ves in. It will take OTHERS reporting the vehicle from WHEREVER they may see it which will then lead to the occupants. If that makes sense. Therefore, my interpretation and what I personally would do would be this. If I lived in Florida, New York, etc. AND I saw a vehicle fitting description w/out a tag or w/ a paper tag, I am taking a picture and submitting a tip. If I am a car dealer and I sold or bought a vehicle that isn't registered (honestly not sure how that works) I would be submitting a tip. If I bought or sold a vehicle privately I would be submitting a tip. What I hope is that property managers, including malls, airports, apartments, etc are scanning their lots for this vehicle possibly abandoned.
 
The amount of Federal agents on this case, has me thinking.... I really don't recall so many Federal agents on most other murder cases. Thoughts?
It's starting to sound like a serial killer to me, especially after the most recent release from LE reminding public to stay vigilant and in groups (and my goofy self questioning that with 'you mean in groups of six or more, right? I mean if there's a pattern and a want to avoid a pattern').

All that man-power would've solved a domestic dispute or neighbor dispute, by now. Therefore, I'm really starting to think it's waaay bigger than that.

Strictly my own speculation and opinion.
 
Imo, it is is toward the extreme sleuther who dox innocent people. There have been some who have harassed people in town. Even showing up at their homes and one was spit on. The police don't need to deal with this right now, and someone is going to get hurt. Imo.
i agre but i would think certain video posts (not here) claiming they know details and who it is(by name) etc? i assume that would be for that aswell? Or imo it should be?
 
Yesterday I typed up a big post on thread #26 since I saw some people seemed to suggest it's simple to look up a car using a "national database". I accidentally lost the post and didn't feel like typing it up again, but here goes...

From my experience having worked in criminal and federal courts, a combination of local and national databases may be used based on what facts LE already have or don't have. The "national database" is not as streamlined or complex as one might think.

Their job to identify the owner of a car would be fairly simple if they have the license plate number by using the relevant state DMV or police records. If LE knows the license plate number of the Hyundai, then they certainly already know who owns the car. From there, knowing the VIN number also makes it easier to track down the car later should someone ever try and register.

It would be more complicated if they only have the make/model/color/estimated year. In that case, you're still mostly going to need to rely on local data but you probably don't know where the car was registered without the license plate. The National Motor Vehicle Information System maintained by the Federal gov't doesn't always have specific details about the make of cars. In that case, you need to know where the car was registered to look at more detailed state or local records. Say LE has a list of every white Hyundai owner's name, address, and license plate number for all of Idaho and the surrounding states, well, that may not tell you anything useful if the car was stolen, the licenses plates were switched, the car was from another state, etc.

The Federal gov't only maintains two databases related to cars, one for titling info (which not every state even reports to yet) and another for stolen cars and revoked/suspended drivers. More detailed info than that will only be kept locally in various ways depending on the state. If the FBI has a secret national database of car info then it's probably because they bought the data from car insurance companies or scrapped it with surveillance. The ACLU would certainly want to have a word.

Each state does things differently as well, there may be more ways car information is documented publicly. In my state, we pay personal property on our cars. I can go to my county website right now, type in a name or address, and see a basic description of the car that person pays property taxes on. Information held by the department of revenue on cars in my state doesn't need a warrant to access, it can simply be ordered. Information held by the assessor's office that can be found with the basic search function online obviously doesn't need a warrant to access, but it can get tricky, if LE needs to run a more specific "back end" type of search on the assessor's data then they may need a digital warrant. Again, this is for my state/county, not Idaho.

A cursory look through of the Latah County website it does not appear that they pay personal property taxes on cars in that county and likely don't have that additional documentation on cars. This is another reason knowing where a car was registered is important.

TLDR; there is not a super cohesive "national database" of cars. Having something physical to track and spot is more important than any information they could glean about the car through a database imo.
 
Well, I do agree with that as well. I am just saying a little clarification might save some time for them. They did say this:


If you know of or own a vehicle matching this description, or know of anyone who may have been driving this vehicle on the days preceding or the day of the murders, please forward that information to the Tip Line.

Ultimately, I understand IF this car is involved AND they want to speak w/ the occupant/s THEY will likely NOT turn themself/ves in. It will take OTHERS reporting the vehicle from WHEREVER they may see it which will then lead to the occupants. If that makes sense. Therefore, my interpretation and what I personally would do would be this. If I lived in Florida, New York, etc. AND I saw a vehicle fitting description w/out a tag or w/ a paper tag, I am taking a picture and submitting a tip. If I am a car dealer and I sold or bought a vehicle that isn't registered (honestly not sure how that works) I would be submitting a tip. If I bought or sold a vehicle privately I would be submitting a tip. What I hope is that property managers, including malls, airports, apartments, etc are scanning their lots for this vehicle possibly abandoned.

I do understand your interpretation of what LE is asking for, but initially LE only asked for people with knowledge of the car's whereabouts from Nov 9-13. Not for people to look at every Elantra in the nation from that time period. They want one that was seen in the neighborhood of 1122 King.

Note that in the request you posted, it says "on the days preceding or day of" the murder - not "at all times since then."

That being said, LE could certainly have better clarified what they want, because now they're having to put more people on the tip lines and people are, indeed, calling in Elantras from all over the place.

My view is that LE are specifically pressuring a known individual (whose Elantra is currently not where it usually is). They are hoping that someone will mention that a specific Elantra was in the neighborhood of 1122 King on day of and days preceding the killings.

No one is supposed to be reporting all Elantras and their drivers, from my POV. People rapidly forget the years they specified, too, so this must be such a hassle for Elantra owners - even if they live in Florida, as you point out. I do NOT think someone who sees an Elantra in FL today should be calling the tip line, but that's just me. No one has said that the car has fled the area, they just want to find some local who was observed in the area on those days.
 
This was pretty interesting. The former FBI behavior analysis expert explained the difference between "instrumental violence" and "reactive violence". Reactive violence is when someone punches you in the nose, and you punch them back. It's done in the heat of the moment.

Instrumental violence is different as it's goal oriented.


 
The 911 call (which hasn't been released) has been discussed ad nauseam on WS. If a person calls and reports a possible death or murder, the operator always asks if the individual(s) is/are conscious. The call being a report of an unconscious person is in no way stating that the caller said those words verbatim in their call.
Below is a link of Eugene, OR 911 call scrpits.


Only certain people can legally declare someone dead or request a coroner and a terrified roommate isn’t on that list thus dispatch uses generic terms.

When I was in the industry, the terms we often used were unresponsive or unconscious.
 
The surviving students did not notice that no one was around. You can smell blood. It has a heavy, cloying rust iron odor. The students bled out, there would have been blood everywhere. The house would br filled with the stench.So they call friends over? Bizzare.
 
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Yesterday I typed up a big post on thread #26 since I saw some people seemed to suggest it's simple to look up a car using a "national database". I accidentally lost the post and didn't feel like typing it up again, but here goes...

From my experience having worked in criminal and federal courts, a combination of local and national databases may be used based on what facts LE already have or don't have. The "national database" is not as streamlined or complex as one might think.

Their job to identify the owner of a car would be fairly simple if they have the license plate number by using the relevant state DMV or police records. If LE knows the license plate number of the Hyundai, then they certainly already know who owns the car. From there, knowing the VIN number also makes it easier to track down the car later should someone ever try and register.

It would be more complicated if they only have the make/model/color/estimated year. In that case, you're still mostly going to need to rely on local data but you probably don't know where the car was registered without the license plate. The National Motor Vehicle Information System maintained by the Federal gov't doesn't always have specific details about the make of cars. In that case, you need to know where the car was registered to look at more detailed state or local records. Say LE has a list of every white Hyundai owner's name, address, and license plate number for all of Idaho and the surrounding states, well, that may not tell you anything useful if the car was stolen, the licenses plates were switched, the car was from another state, etc.

The Federal gov't only maintains two databases related to cars, one for titling info (which not every state even reports to yet) and another for stolen cars and revoked/suspended drivers. More detailed info than that will only be kept locally in various ways depending on the state. If the FBI has a secret national database of car info then it's probably because they bought the data from car insurance companies or scrapped it with surveillance. The ACLU would certainly want to have a word.

Each state does things differently as well, there may be more ways car information is documented publicly. In my state, we pay personal property on our cars. I can go to my county website right now, type in a name or address, and see a basic description of the car that person pays property taxes on. Information held by the department of revenue on cars in my state doesn't need a warrant to access, it can simply be ordered. Information held by the assessor's office that can be found with the basic search function online obviously doesn't need a warrant to access, but it can get tricky, if LE needs to run a more specific "back end" type of search on the assessor's data then they may need a digital warrant. Again, this is for my state/county, not Idaho.

A cursory look through of the Latah County website it does not appear that they pay personal property taxes on cars in that county and likely don't have that additional documentation on cars. This is another reason knowing where a car was registered is important.

TLDR; there is not a super cohesive "national database" of cars. Having something physical to track and spot is more important than any information they could glean about the car through a database imo.
What about the database that’s been set up for the Takata air bag recall? That database knows whether or not a specific car has had the recalled repairs made or not. Could it possibly be used given such a wide net (a range of years, no specific state)?
 
We had a neighbor who gradually changed the property line (it was my parents' house). No one thought they were doing it on purpose - the way the property had been laid out would make any new owner think they owned their whole driveway (but the property line went up the middle). My parents decided just to let it go (kind of irritated me, but now, it's so far in the rearview mirror, I just don't care.

But neighbor wars and neighbor diplomacy are both real things. I would be very interested to know more about the neighborhood of 1122 King (not just the crime calls, but the overall mixture of who lives right there). Not that there's any evidence that neighbors are involved in this crime, but I'm curious what neighbors might know about the house (since the house is targeted).
You might get something out of this article that gives one graduate student's account of living near the home.

 
This was pretty interesting. The former FBI behavior analysis expert explained the difference between "instrumental violence" and "reactive violence". Reactive violence is when someone punches you in the nose, and you punch them back. It's done in the heat of the moment.

Instrumental violence is different as it's goal oriented.


@gliving
Thank-you so very much for your post!
It was interesting video.
Respectfully,
Thora_Jay
 
What about the database that’s been set up for the Takata air bag recall? That database knows whether or not a specific car has had the recalled repairs made or not. Could it possibly be used given such a wide net (a range of years, no specific state)?
Recall information is usually only linked to the VIN. If they know the VIN of the car then there are other private databases where they could pull information from regarding car service history. It would require a digital warrant though. I was speaking only to government-maintained databases edit: and I don't know much about that Takata database. I have not ever seen discovery come through from a recall database, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
 
I don't think we know the answers to most of your question (whether an actual Ka-Bar or a similar knife). The bruises described on K's body may be the evidence of the hilt, which can give an idea as to the model or even brand of the knife - whether that's been forensically determined or is a working guess, we don't know.

I agree that many people have such knives. There are lots of reasons to get a knife with a hilt. We have no clue what size this one was. We have two hunting knives, too (carried in our cars, for various reasons, but used when camping). Ours are the camping style, not with hilt, but outdoors people often have both.

I don't think that knife means "military training" at all. There's a knife and outdoor ax subculture in Moscow (and the Western US in general, if you ask me), so lots of people have those weapons (we do; the ax is crucial to our camping experiences, and it's also fun to try and throw it at a target). A former Marine was posting on a prior thread about actual Marine training with that knife - and they were not taught to use a stabbing motion nor did they practice on prone individuals.

That knife, when located, will be a crucial clue in this case. I sure hope it's not under water by now.
Thanks, I think we agree on all points, and your response again reinforces my personal belief that this could be a self-styled outdoor person. A camper, hunter, backcountry enthusiast, etc. And that’s kind of the key point for me - I’d personally follow up on understanding that lifestyle and adjacent interests, habits, maybe SM media activity, etc and see if it offers any insights into who (and where) this person might be, particularly in the context of any POIs they may actually have. Just my opinion, but the feeling I’ve had from the beginning.
 
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