Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #161

[LeahBee]

The thing with RA knowing the girls were going to be at the bridge at that time...
If he knew they were supposed to be meeting someone on the bridge it was really risky of him to force the girls DTH and stick around the CS as long as he did, knowing there was a man - a witness - nearby at that time waiting for the girls. Unless that man was in on it too. On the other hand, RA did a lot of dumb stuff that day and didn't seem concerned about being seen in the area so who knows. My mind keeps going in circles with this. jmo

Also, the fact the PCA states that the bullet casing ejection mark analysis is "subjective" makes me think the defense will pounce on that, as opposed to trying to say RA actually did lend his gun to some mystery person during that time and forgot about it. We have to trust LE has much more solid physical evidence. Idk how a jury will interpret the timeline of RA's visit to the trails and witness statements in regards to reasonable doubt. It's hard to be patient to see what all comes out during trial - and presumably this trial will get delayed and delayed

All jmo, just random thoughts

 

[NeverPersonal]

I guess my question is Why is it so hard to believe there could be others involved? Especially since LE has said this case is complex with tentacles. Tentacles makes me think of more than 1 person. Also, they are continuing their investigation. It's not over with the arrest of RMA.

“This case is unlikely any that I’ve seen in an almost 40-year career,” Superintendent Carter tells WIBC’s Hammer & Nigel, “there are so many different tentacles to this. Its very complex.”

Carter says Richard Allen is the man charged with the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German, but detectives will continue to investigate anyone who may have a connection to the case – that includes Kegan Kline.

A "Complex" Case - ISP Superintendent Doug Carter Talks Richard Allen, Kegan Kline, "Police Sources" & What You Should Be Allowed to Know

DELPHI, Ind. -- Richard Allen, Kegan Kline, public documents and "police sources" - Superintendent Doug Carter with Indiana State Police covered it all when discussing the 2017 Delphi murders investigation Tuesday.

wibc.com

I have personally thrown everything out the window that the local LE has said about this because they could've solved this case the first day. They found it so challenging because they didn't see what was right in front of them. MOO.

 

[Megnut]

I still struggle directionally so bear with me.

BG was on the bridge when the lady saw him and turned around. As she was leaving, she met the girls as they approached the bridge. What's the sightline on the bridge? Surely it's not quite the entire span.

To me, BG was ahead of them. He didn't need to hide or linger. He needed to hurry.

I think he was still on the platform when the girls reached the bridge. IMO he was waiting for them. IMO he proceeded to the far end of the bridge, ahead of them. And waited. And when they neared the end, he walked toward them as if he was crossing the bridge ultimately to exit the park, only as soon as he passed by the girls on the bridge he turned around, coming now up behind them.

And that's why he wasn't in the photo L took of A. He was ahead of them.

Additionally, I think it's possible he was on his phone when the lady saw him, even if she didn't see or report that detail. He did. A presplain (an explanation revealing foreknowledge and details only know by the perpetrator, an answer before the question).

Phone call or tracking (L).

JMO

 

[MichMan015]

I was just thinking the mind set the perp had the day of the murder. Of course this is all conjecture but at mid afternoon in Feb RA is seen by multiple people and had travelled rather quickly and directly from home to the trails. He had of course carried the tools he needed, gun/knife. He is then involved in a double homicide within a short time of arriving. Walking by two groups of people that have seen him be fore he encountered Libby and Abby. This guy i think had a plan and knew what he was looking for. I do not think this was random. He came there looking. I also can’t help but think the picture Libby took was almost like a notice saying okay we made it, here we are.
A killer taking his time, using some patience etc to select the time and place - it just does not seem to fit the facts. He took the opportunity because it affirmed his plan to catch the young victims without an adult, alone and at the place he directed them to.
Libby’s phone being reset makes me think some communication took place to set this up through KK and his wiped/reset/lost phone. Perhaps once RA knows they have all they need to put him away he will start talking and the drop box or what ever will be revealed.

 

[gizmobtj]

Except he didn't try to cover his butt from a lengthy sentence when he drove to the transfer station that morning before things went down. He only asked his cousin to lie for him starting between 2:00 - 2:30 when the murders went down. You'd think he'd want to cover his butt each and every time he drove without a license, yet he only did that when things went down on that particular day.

1) He only asked for an alibi before the girls were even found, and during the timeframe when the murders first went down.

2) He drove to the transfer station that morning and didn't feel he needed an alibi for driving without a license before the murders happened.

Lastly, LE thought the creation of an alibi prior to them being found indicates knowledge of that crime.

So to me, his seeking an alibi wasn't about not getting busted for driving without a license, it was about covering his butt when a murder on his property went down. I do not believe he's the killer, but I do think he knew what was going on when it was actually happening. If not, why ask your cousin to lie about a trip to another city during the exact timeframe a murder (and whatever else) transpired? And NOT ask for one for a transfer station run before the murders even took place?

https://interactive.wthr.com/pdfs/logan-warrrant.pdf

Well, he knew the store had a receipt and the transfer station didn't

 

[gizmobtj]

The thing with RA knowing the girls were going to be at the bridge at that time...
If he knew they were supposed to be meeting someone on the bridge it was really risky of him to force the girls DTH and stick around the CS as long as he did, knowing there was a man - a witness - nearby at that time waiting for the girls. Unless that man was in on it too. On the other hand, RA did a lot of dumb stuff that day and didn't seem concerned about being seen in the area so who knows. My mind keeps going in circles with this. jmo

Also, the fact the PCA states that the bullet casing ejection mark analysis is "subjective" makes me think the defense will pounce on that, as opposed to trying to say RA actually did lend his gun to some mystery person during that time and forgot about it. We have to trust LE has much more solid physical evidence. Idk how a jury will interpret the timeline of RA's visit to the trails and witness statements in regards to reasonable doubt. It's hard to be patient to see what all comes out during trial - and presumably this trial will get delayed and delayed

All jmo, just random thoughts

But what if they happened to be catfished and they were waiting for someone else but it was actually him ...?

 

[gizmobtj]

I was just thinking the mind set the perp had the day of the murder. Of course this is all conjecture but at mid afternoon in Feb RA is seen by multiple people and had travelled rather quickly and directly from home to the trails. He had of course carried the tools he needed, gun/knife. He is then involved in a double homicide within a short time of arriving. Walking by two groups of people that have seen him be fore he encountered Libby and Abby. This guy i think had a plan and knew what he was looking for. I do not think this was random. He came there looking. I also can’t help but think the picture Libby took was almost like a notice saying okay we made it, here we are.
A killer taking his time, using some patience etc to select the time and place - it just does not seem to fit the facts. He took the opportunity because it affirmed his plan to catch the young victims without an adult, alone and at the place he directed them to.
Libby’s phone being reset makes me think some communication took place to set this up through KK and his wiped/reset/lost phone. Perhaps once RA knows they have all they need to put him away he will start talking and the drop box or what ever will be revealed.

His trip to the CPS Building if he was seen on the HH camera was quite indirect

 

[Megnut]

His trip to the CPS Building if he was seen on the HH camera was quite indirect

Was he coming from the direction of a local gas station?

 

[gizmobtj]

How do the sketches fit in with all of this?. I suspect second “young BG” sketch was provided by the witness driving, who saw persn on side of road bloody and muddy. And original sketch likely from the group of girls, as they were close enough to say eyes not blue. There does seem to have been thoughts from LE that the sketches may have been of different people (when they released new BG sketch), given the age ranges were so different. Are the sketches going to be a problem for the prosecution - defence might put forward that maybe there were two different males out there on the trails at the time, dressed similarly.
Indiana State Police clarify reasons for 2nd sketch in Delphi murders case

Well, LE said it was a different person; then DC suggested after the arrest that RA was a combo of both. Abby's mom said LE told her they exhausted their leads on Sketch 1 and believed they knew who it was and moved to Sketch 2, a different person.

So, in short, who knows?

 

[gizmobtj]

I still struggle directionally so bear with me.

BG was on the bridge when the lady saw him and turned around. As she was leaving, she met the girls as they approached the bridge. What's the sightline on the bridge? Surely it's not quite the entire span.

To me, BG was ahead of them. He didn't need to hide or linger. He needed to hurry.

I think he was still on the platform when the girls reached the bridge. IMO he was waiting for them. IMO he proceeded to the far end of the bridge, ahead of them. And waited. And when they neared the end, he walked toward them as if he was crossing the bridge ultimately to exit the park, only as soon as he passed by the girls on the bridge he turned around, coming now up behind them.

And that's why he wasn't in the photo L took of A. He was ahead of them.

Additionally, I think it's possible he was on his phone when the lady saw him, even if she didn't see or report that detail. He did. A presplain (an explanation revealing foreknowledge and details only know by the perpetrator, an answer before the question).

Phone call or tracking (L).

JMO

This one-time exception video might help

 

[MAHBOOBOO]

It's not hard for me to understand why the people close to RA didn't recognize him as BG. I just walked through my control room here at work and I think at least 9 out of these 32 men could pass for the photo of Bridge Guy.

 

[Vern]

I have personally thrown everything out the window that the local LE has said about this because they could've solved this case the first day. They found it so challenging because they didn't see what was right in front of them. MOO.

Could they have? Do you have a source that confirms when RA actually reported to the Conservation Officer and date/timeframe when the Conservation Officer actually fed the info on RA to Law Enforcement?

I know this critical info was 'missed', but perhaps I've missed something. Did the CO pass it on to LE immediately or a couple of months ago or a year ago. I'm not certain we've learned the 'whens', 'hows', and 'whys' of this oversight (??) yet. But, guarantee the defence will bring it at the trial.

 

[Boxer]

The thing with RA knowing the girls were going to be at the bridge at that time...
If he knew they were supposed to be meeting someone on the bridge it was really risky of him to force the girls DTH and stick around the CS as long as he did, knowing there was a man - a witness - nearby at that time waiting for the girls. Unless that man was in on it too. On the other hand, RA did a lot of dumb stuff that day and didn't seem concerned about being seen in the area so who knows. My mind keeps going in circles with this. jmo

Also, the fact the PCA states that the bullet casing ejection mark analysis is "subjective" makes me think the defense will pounce on that, as opposed to trying to say RA actually did lend his gun to some mystery person during that time and forgot about it. We have to trust LE has much more solid physical evidence. Idk how a jury will interpret the timeline of RA's visit to the trails and witness statements in regards to reasonable doubt. It's hard to be patient to see what all comes out during trial - and presumably this trial will get delayed and delayed

All jmo, just random thoughts

Federal Rules of Evidence

2023 Edition

• Article VII – Opinions and Expert Testimony
• Rule 702 – Testimony by Expert Witnesses

Rule 702 – Testimony by Expert Witnesses​

A witness who is qualified as an expert by knowledge, skill, experience, training, or education may testify in the form of an opinion or otherwise if:
(a) the expert’s scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge will help the trier of fact to understand the evidence or to determine a fact in issue;
(b) the testimony is based on sufficient facts or data;
(c) the testimony is the product of reliable principles and methods; and
(d) the expert has reliably applied the principles and methods to the facts of the case.

 

[Salah11]

If RA was some catfisher and not some angry SOB with small man Syndrome why on earth would he pick two girls on his doorstep?

Let’s not forget in a community with about 2500 where he had a job serving the community daily.


It literally makes zero sense!!

 

[scapa]

Imo this is an excellent and cogent analysis.

I read it all, but just in case I’ll say what I understand, if it was TL;DR for anyone.

TL;DR—-Libby and Abby were on the bridge at a particular time. RA was in the same location at the same time as recounted by witnesses and his own narrative.

A man was in the same location at the same time and was caught on video giving a menacing command to Abby and Libby. He wears clothing similar to RA’s account of his clothing.

Libby and Abby are murdered.

No other men were seen by witnesses in the same location at the same time.

Not even counting the bullet, it is at least at MINIMUM a lot of circumstantial evidence.

IMO

Good summary -- I agree that even without the bullet, this is enough for at least a follow-up interview for RA. And my uninformed guess based on his subsequent interview years later as reported in the PCA is that at any such follow-up interview RA is a decent bet to give something else away that provides the thin edge of the wedge used to arrest him.

That 2017 follow-up didn't happen, of course. I expect that the already suggestive circumstantial case will become far, far more compelling as evidence is enumerated at trial.

 

[TL4S]

I know Carroll County is small town USA, but I'd like to believe that when Prosecutor McL wrote the PCA, he knew that extractor marks would be contestable in court, and I'd also like to believe he would not boldly state something in court about others being involved if he wasn't prepared to back that up at a later time. Maybe it's idealistic on my part, but it's far too early, and I know far too little, for me to judge whether LE or NMcL have a good case or not. Jmo.

 

[electricuncalm]

Ye of much faith

I mean, lost the interview with their prime suspect, took three years to get to KAK and the shenanigans with the judge over the PCA does not inspire confidence over here

I mean, that’s a fair point. However that’s all the investigation which is the cops. The charges are being brought by the prosecutor whom I have no reason to not have faith in. The prosecutors office clearly wasn’t bringing charges until they had whatever it was that the cops did apparently, eventually find.

Edited to add: I don’t see the requesting the pcr to be kept sealed to be that unusual. Seems it comes up in a lot of cases I see, much like the defense motioning for dismissal of charges etc. I always thought requesting things be kept sealed was standard. As always … moo

 

[Yemelyan]

Do we know if prior to or immediately after the arrest of RA whether LE put the known witnesses of BG/RA through line ups to positively identify him?

Not sure if anyone else answered you, but investigators have not yet revealed if they did this.

I think it would vary from crime to crime depending on the witness (es) and LE's confidence in them in each individual case, but I can see situations where LE would strategically decide NOT to ask witnesses to view lineups, in case after all this time they couldn't pick him out. This could be one of those cases where a lineup wouldn't add much, since he has admitted to being in the exact locations and wearing the exact clothing that witnesses said the person was. But it would have the potential to add uncertainty that the defense can use if witnesses were to stumble on the identification (and who could blame them after more than 5 years). So it's a gamble.

 

[Salah11]

Libby would of turned 20 today and I hope the family can find some peace in the fact the man responsible is locked up and I hope Justice is forthcoming in 2023.


Happy heavenly Birthday Liberty German

 

[Gemmie]

On the other hand, RA did a lot of dumb stuff that day and didn't seem concerned about being seen in the area so who knows. My mind keeps going in circles with this. jmo

All jmo, just random thoughts

SBMFF

One thing I keep wondering about is why would RMA be seen by a witness, walking bloody and muddy on the North side of W 300 N @ ~3:57, when his car is parked on the South side? He also wasn’t caught on the Harvestore cam which is on the North side. Did he cross back to the South side and walk in the shelter of the trees so as not to be seen by the cam? If so, why even be on the North side at all since it's definitely not a direct route out of the cemetary (has to cross the road twice vs. not having to cross it at all if he took the direct route).

Or did he skirt around Hoosier’s totally trying to avoid being caught on cam? It’s a tad large looking building to skirt around if that's what he did. I doubt he did that because if he was seen by someone, behind the store muddy and bloody, it would raise eyebrows.

So what's up with that? Anyone have any ideas/theories to toss out to mull over?

One time approved vid by MadMcGoo starting at the time referenced above: