Coronavirus COVID-19 - Global Health Pandemic #110

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Auntie Cipation said:
I think getting covid increases the risks of all these possible side effects and more, more than the risk from the vaccine.

Personally, the only reason I would avoid the vaccines is if I were allergic to an ingredient.

I do, however, see a downside to the vaccine, and that is if people who've gotten it think they are now protected and don't need to mask or avoid crowded situations.

I thankfully live in an extremely low population density area but when I go to visit family in suburbia, I think I'm at more risk now than at any time since the pandemic started, because now hardly anyone else is masking or keeping distance.
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Thanks for this excellent post, Auntie C.
 
anneg said:
Otto, I bolded part of your second sentence. An ischemic stroke affects the brain, not the heart, so I'm not sure why you used that wording. Can you clarify?
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Ischemic heart disease and stroke share a similar pathophysiology - arteries. Ischemic stroke is like a "heart attack of the brain".

1673668211947.png
NIH
 

A vaccine safety monitoring system in late November picked up a signal that the updated Pfizer coronavirus vaccine booster was possibly linked to an increased risk of strokes in people 65 and older. But a deep dive into several large databases failed to confirm the preliminary information, leading federal health officials to conclude the risk is extremely low — and probably nonexistent, those officials said Friday.
 
anneg said:

A vaccine safety monitoring system in late November picked up a signal that the updated Pfizer coronavirus vaccine booster was possibly linked to an increased risk of strokes in people 65 and older. But a deep dive into several large databases failed to confirm the preliminary information, leading federal health officials to conclude the risk is extremely low — and probably nonexistent, those officials said Friday.
Click to expand...
It sounds like there was a deep dive into the Pfizer bivalent vaccine 2 months ago surrounding risk of stroke. Conclusions were that risk is extremely low-to-imaginary (non-existent, yet investigated). Still, there was enough information to trigger an investigation.

There were no similar concerns with the Moderna bivalent BA.4/5 vaccine.
 
otto said:
That's true. Covid may damage the heart, and now there's a concern that the Pfizer bivalent BA.4/5 vaccine may damage the heart.

Should we get the vaccine that may damage the heart because the illness may cause that damage anyway, or should we not get the vaccine and do our best to avoid getting sick?
Click to expand...
@otto , these are reasonable questions for us all to be asking ourselves.

When the pandemic started, I read up on the 1918 Spanish Flu, and figured covid would be more or less the same: one wave, or two, or three, or four, sweep the globe over a period of a few years, some people die, and those who don't die resume their lives. By the mid-1920s it seemed the world had forgotten the Spanish Flu pandemic and was busy "roaring" and indulging in the myriad excesses that preceded the Great Depression.

But that's not how I see covid anymore. It doesn't look like it will be going away anytime soon, and the longterm effects of the disease, especially cumulative infections as your post made clear, will be increasingly dramatic and traumatic both to individuals and to society as a whole (reduction in functional workforce, increase in the need for longterm care, etc).

So I now think of covid more like a mostly-mild-but-highly-contagious heart attack or stroke: only a few people will be killed or disabled by the initial occurrence, but many people will have lingering or longterm problems afterward, and the accumulation of two, or three, or more heart attacks/strokes/covid illnesses, plus the aftereffects, will quickly become disabling.

In addition, the increasing research showing how each covid infection damages your immune system's ability to fight off OTHER illnesses -- as we are seeing this winter with spikes in RSV, a bad flu season, kids getting tonsillitis at much higher rates than previous, everyone getting "a bad bug but it's not covid", etc.

Here's a theoretical: If each bout with covid damages the immune system for, say, the next six months, during which time a person is at greater risk for other illness (which may of course have their own lingering effects). If people are catching covid every year, that's half of each year they will be operating with a damaged immune system, without even considering whether it gets worse with each round or not. Which it seems very likely to me that it does.

So in the face of that, and keeping in mind that the vaccine doesn't even prevent you from catching it, but it does reduce the severity of illness, unless I was at a high risk for strokes to start with, I would consider it a no-brainer to take the vaccine even with its own attendant risks.

AND for anyone who does opt out of the [presumably ongoing at least for the near term] vaccine boosters, I can't even describe how diligently I would suggest that person be about serious n95 masking and staying out of enclosed spaces with other people.

The Pfizer elevated stroke risk you mention seems to be just for the first few weeks following the vaccination. I do also assume that there may be some other elevated adverse outcomes from the vaccines of any brand, that simply arent't yet known because statistical outcomes sometimes aren't discernable right away.

TLDR I am of the opinion that nearly everyone would be wise to take the risk on the vaccine (one brand or the other, I don't personally think the differences in risk are significant). It's looking like even the most isolated hermits among us are unlikely to be able to avoid covid for more than a few years. Though I plan to do my best to try!

MOO
 
anneg said:

A vaccine safety monitoring system in late November picked up a signal that the updated Pfizer coronavirus vaccine booster was possibly linked to an increased risk of strokes in people 65 and older. But a deep dive into several large databases failed to confirm the preliminary information, leading federal health officials to conclude the risk is extremely low — and probably nonexistent, those officials said Friday.
Click to expand...
In one of the posts, above, it said that this possible risk to people over 65 was a risk during the three weeks following recieving the bivalent Pfizer vaccine. Does anyone know if that is the case? I had the Moderna bivalent, but spouse had the Pfizer bivalent in mid-November.

I did hear on the news today (radio) that they did not take into consideration other factors such as medical issues/comorbidities of the patients who experienced strokes after receiving the Pfizer bivalent vaccine. Of course with people over 65, there is a good chance that many people had one or more issues such as high blood pressure, diabetes, high cholesterol, etc.
 
otto said:
So far, no indication that the Moderna bivalent has the same problem, but that may be because the Moderna bivalent is not available in some parts of modern countries like Canada.
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My understanding is that the CDC and FDA are looking at data only within the U.S. regarding stroke prevalence in people over 65 who got the bivalent Pfizer booster. So data would include the bivalent Moderna booster.
 
Sundog said:
In one of the posts, above, it said that this possible risk to people over 65 was a risk during the three weeks following recieving the bivalent Pfizer vaccine. Does anyone know if that is the case? I had the Moderna bivalent, but spouse had the Pfizer bivalent in mid-November.

I did hear on the news today (radio) that they did not take into consideration other factors such as medical issues/comorbidities of the patients who experienced strokes after receiving the Pfizer bivalent vaccine. Of course with people over 65, there is a good chance that many people had one or more issues such as high blood pressure, diabetes, high cholesterol, etc.
Click to expand...
That's the latest, by the sounds of it ... The Pfizer bivalent BA.4/5 has some association with ischemic stroke (heart/brain?), but the Moderna Spikevax does not. Keep in mind that the Moderna Spikevax is not widely available in some countries (like Canada), so data may be limited.

Repeated covid illness means 3 times more likely to have cardiovascular problems. Some people fall over dead on a football field without known cardiovascular illness, are revived, and live to turn 30. People over 65 are more likely to have cardiovascular weakness, people over age 65 are more likely to have ischemic stroke 3 weeks after pfizer vaccine. What's the number for under age 65? How many suffer heart side effects after vaccine?
 
Sundog said:
My understanding is that the CDC and FDA are looking at data only within the U.S. regarding stroke prevalence in people over 65 who got the bivalent Pfizer booster. So data would include the bivalent Moderna booster.
Click to expand...
It sounds like Moderna does not have the same safety concerns.


"Of about 550,000 seniors who got Pfizer bivalent boosters and were tracked by the VSD, 130 had strokes in the three weeks after the shot, according to a CDC official who spoke to CNN on condition of anonymity because they weren’t authorized to share the data.
...

“These strokes are not a confirmed adverse event at the moment,” he said. “It’s like a radar system. You’re getting a blip on the radar, and you have to do further investigation to discover whether that airplane is friend or foe.”

The same safety signal has not been detected with the bivalent Moderna booster, the CDC said in its notice."https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/13/health/pfizer-bivalent-booster-safety-cdc/index.html
CNN
 
Auntie Cipation said:
@otto , these are reasonable questions for us all to be asking ourselves.

When the pandemic started, I read up on the 1918 Spanish Flu, and figured covid would be more or less the same: one wave, or two, or three, or four, sweep the globe over a period of a few years, some people die, and those who don't die resume their lives. By the mid-1920s it seemed the world had forgotten the Spanish Flu pandemic and was busy "roaring" and indulging in the myriad excesses that preceded the Great Depression.

But that's not how I see covid anymore. It doesn't look like it will be going away anytime soon, and the longterm effects of the disease, especially cumulative infections as your post made clear, will be increasingly dramatic and traumatic both to individuals and to society as a whole (reduction in functional workforce, increase in the need for longterm care, etc).

So I now think of covid more like a mostly-mild-but-highly-contagious heart attack or stroke: only a few people will be killed or disabled by the initial occurrence, but many people will have lingering or longterm problems afterward, and the accumulation of two, or three, or more heart attacks/strokes/covid illnesses, plus the aftereffects, will quickly become disabling.

In addition, the increasing research showing how each covid infection damages your immune system's ability to fight off OTHER illnesses -- as we are seeing this winter with spikes in RSV, a bad flu season, kids getting tonsillitis at much higher rates than previous, everyone getting "a bad bug but it's not covid", etc.

Here's a theoretical: If each bout with covid damages the immune system for, say, the next six months, during which time a person is at greater risk for other illness (which may of course have their own lingering effects). If people are catching covid every year, that's half of each year they will be operating with a damaged immune system, without even considering whether it gets worse with each round or not. Which it seems very likely to me that it does.

So in the face of that, and keeping in mind that the vaccine doesn't even prevent you from catching it, but it does reduce the severity of illness, unless I was at a high risk for strokes to start with, I would consider it a no-brainer to take the vaccine even with its own attendant risks.

AND for anyone who does opt out of the [presumably ongoing at least for the near term] vaccine boosters, I can't even describe how diligently I would suggest that person be about serious n95 masking and staying out of enclosed spaces with other people.

The Pfizer elevated stroke risk you mention seems to be just for the first few weeks following the vaccination. I do also assume that there may be some other elevated adverse outcomes from the vaccines of any brand, that simply arent't yet known because statistical outcomes sometimes aren't discernable right away.

TLDR I am of the opinion that nearly everyone would be wise to take the risk on the vaccine (one brand or the other, I don't personally think the differences in risk are significant). It's looking like even the most isolated hermits among us are unlikely to be able to avoid covid for more than a few years. Though I plan to do my best to try!

MOO
Click to expand...
That is a very well thought out posting. Thank you. With the Spanish flu, it seems if you survived you didn't have all the lingering medical issues that we have with Covid. The Spanish flue apparently morphed into the flu we have now, still lethal for some, but not for the majority. Covid has been much more lethal and remains lethal. Vaccines and boosters have taken the lethality out of it for most but it still causes hospitalizations and death. I imagine one day Covid will morph into a less lethal virus, much as the flu is today, but not yet. I am still on the fence about the Bivalent booster, although the article states that Moderna is not involved and all my shots have been Moderna.
 
www.yahoo.com

China reports 60,000 COVID-related deaths, says peak passed

China on Saturday reported nearly 60,000 deaths in people who had COVID-19 since early December, offering hard numbers for an unprecedented surge that was apparent in overcrowded hospitals and packed crematoriums, even as the government released little data about the status of the pandemic for...
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com

BEIJING (AP) — China on Saturday reported nearly 60,000 deaths in people who had COVID-19 since early December, offering hard numbers for an unprecedented surge that was apparent in overcrowded hospitals and packed crematoriums, even as the government released little data about the status of the pandemic for weeks.

Those numbers may still underestimate the toll, though the government said the “emergency peak" of its latest surge appears to have passed.

The toll included 5,503 deaths due to respiratory failure caused by COVID-19 and 54,435 fatalities from other ailments combined with COVID-19 since Dec. 8, the National Health Commission announced. It said those “deaths related to COVID” occurred in hospitals, which means anyone who died at home would not be included in the numbers.
 
otto said:
Still no Moderna bivalent BA4/5 available in some provinces in Canada. I checked today. Some people have to choose between switching brands (to Pfizer), or going without and being more cautious until the next variant comes around. Maybe Moderna will be ahead of the curve for the next wave.
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I got "mixed" shots- no problem really (well, that I know of)
 
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otto said:
Still no Moderna bivalent BA4/5 available in some provinces in Canada. I checked today. Some people have to choose between switching brands (to Pfizer), or going without and being more cautious until the next variant comes around. Maybe Moderna will be ahead of the curve for the next wave.
Click to expand...

My province has the Moderna bivalent. I was asked if I wanted the Pfizer or Moderna one when I went for my shot.
 
Household member tested positive on Friday. (Rcvd their phizer bivalent booster in early October)

This is our first case afaik. Well not really-someone else had to have been asymptomatic/positive recently- because the positive person hasn’t been anywhere but home.

As of today I’m still negative! *knock wood* (I got the moderna biv booster in September fwiw)
 
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ilovepierre said:
My province has the Moderna bivalent. I was asked if I wanted the Pfizer or Moderna one when I went for my shot.
Click to expand...
Did you get the Moderna bivalent 4/5? There are apparently two Moderna bivalent's circulating in Canada right now.
 
abcnews.go.com

Several celebrities test positive for COVID after Golden Globes

Several celebrities announced that they contracted COVID-19 after the Golden Globes, but a public health expert says this doesn't necessarily signal trouble for the U.S.
abcnews.go.com abcnews.go.com
In the wake of the Golden Globes last week, several celebrities said they have tested positive for COVID-19.

At least four stars, including Jamie Lee Curtis and Michelle Pfeiffer, revealed they contracted the virus following the awards show.

In response, the Critics Choice Awards, which was held on Sunday, announced that all attendees would be required to submit a negative COVID-19 test before entering the venue, according to Deadline.

Public health experts said the news of actors and actresses falling ill is not surprising due to the relaxed regulations and people gathering indoors...
 
Shaking my head . . . MOO there will be more than four positive cases.

abcnews.go.com

Several celebrities test positive for COVID after Golden Globes

Several celebrities announced that they contracted COVID-19 after the Golden Globes, but a public health expert says this doesn't necessarily signal trouble for the U.S.
abcnews.go.com abcnews.go.com

In the wake of the Golden Globes last week, several celebrities said they have tested positive for COVID-19.

At least four stars, including Jamie Lee Curtis and Michelle Pfeiffer, revealed they contracted the virus following the awards show. More at link above.
 
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