UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon & Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #2 *Arrest*

[Haveyoufedthecat]

Let us hope that as the hours of darkness draw on that somewhere there is a tiny soul, hungry for life that will attract the attention of someone who "just wants to make sure" and is found... As I retire to bed tonight I grasp to the belief that babies, although fragile, have.an iron will to live, and will indeed be found and be safe... God willing this baby will be found.

 

[Amonet]

I think landfill is a bit of a leap. Certainly it can be very hard to find a body there (see the Corrie McKeague case) but I doubt they would have disposed of the body in such a way.

I think this was a much wanted baby, and if they have disposed of a body themselves it will be in an unmarked grave rather than tossed away like rubbish.

They've had ample opportunity to find a nice spot in woodland or a park and dig a grave.

Even if the baby had died around the time they were in Haringey, there are lots of parks in the vicinity - while Hampstead Heath is busy in the daytime it's very quiet at night with many wooded areas, and Highgate/ Queens Woods are deserted at almost any time you go. Finsbury Park is probably a bit too manicured and open to provide enough cover for such activities. Burial in an allotment seems illogical given how often they get dug over, but that seems to be a line of enquiry.

BBM, I can't imagine they really think baby was buried there. I think it's more about the necessity to rule out the allotment as it was so close to the last known location. It might only be a minute chance of the baby being there, but they have to search in the last known location just to make sure...not because there's a high likelihood of a discovery there. I think they'd also need to look there for signs of potential human activity like sleeping out there, just to try and piece together movements and whether any human activity signs point only to the adults or also to signs of a baby.

So I don't think it's a serious expectation that they'll find the child there, but it's a place to start, and a first place to rule out or maybe find some clue.

 

[infinit]

I'm really struggling to understand their mindset if I'm honest. I can get my head around not wanting SS etc involved. But the game is now up, if not now, certainly if it progresses to a trial they are going to have to provide some explanation of how a baby that was with them is no longer and the circumstances in which they last saw it. You'd assume they've had the time to coordinate what they'd do and say. Perhaps they're the type who would just simply plead guilty and what will be will be. But either way there seems this sad theme of them prioritising their own interests over the baby. If it's alive it needs to be found, if it's dead it deserves a funeral. None of this seems to be their priority.

 

[sunnynz]

The more I think about it, the fact that both were together at the ATM points to baby either being dead or in the care of someone else. Surely they wouldn’t just leave the baby alone.

The cash withdrawal does indicate either a person helping them out who’s supplied them with a card to use, or that C has access to a bank account that’s somehow outside usual tracking measures. A rich people thing?

 

[infinit]

The more I think about it, the fact that both were together at the ATM points to baby either being dead or in the care of someone else. Surely they wouldn’t just leave the baby alone.

The cash withdrawal does indicate either a person helping them out who’s supplied them with a card to use, or that C has access to a bank account that’s somehow outside usual tracking measures. A rich people thing?

If it's a foreign bank card it's a lot harder to identify the account exists in the 1st place and you can't track what you're not looking for.

 

[Amaz0nia]

Thinking about that poor little baby i hope there is positive news in the morning

 

[JuicyLucy]

Given the charge under investigation is now manslaughter, what rights does CM have over her body, given that various aspects of it now have investigative value?

I mean, for instance, if she's still lactating that might tell the police something about how recently the baby could have been alive. Can she refuse to submit to an examination that would give them that information?

If she denies that there was ever a baby in the first place, can they force her to submit to a pelvic exam that evidences recent parturition? I assume they can compel a DNA sample to compare with the placental/chorionic tissue, but if the placenta is too degraded for a useful result, could they compel something more invasive?

Sorry if this is a bit grim for discussion. It's not a point of law that arises very often, I imagine, and I just thought it was interesting to consider what rights to bodily autonomy would remain after arrest for a serious crime.

 

[dotr]

rbbm

Search for aristocrat’s baby continues amid fears child may have ‘come to harm’

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon have been arrested on suspicion of gross negligence manslaughter.

www.heraldscotland.com

''However, confirming Marten and Gordon had been re-arrested on suspicion of gross negligence manslaughter, Mr Basford said police had to consider the possibility the baby had “come to harm”.

He said officers had received no information about the welfare or location of the child since the pair were detained.

Mr Basford said: “We have had a significant period of time in custody facility with both Constance and Mark.

“At this time we have not furthered that information, which has now obviously led to the position where we feel that the risk is getting so great that we now have to consider the possibility that the baby has come to harm.

“I can now confirm that they have been further arrested on suspicion of gross negligence manslaughter and that they remain in custody at police stations in Sussex.''

 

[BensonP]

I hate to go there, but if that baby never left London, and that baby's dead, rather than alive with some confederate keeping them safe, then that poor wee mite is most likely in landfill and will never be found. Infants are so tiny, and landfills are brutal, destructive places. Even in the winter, the temperatures in garbage will accelerate decomposition, never mind the bulldozers, the animals, the bacteria.

I hope to be wrong, believe me, but I fear this little one's mortal remains will never be found.

Police have evidence that the baby left London with them, in a Taxi to the south coast.

 

[infinit]

Given the charge under investigation is now manslaughter, what rights does CM have over her body, given that various aspects of it now have investigative value?

I mean, for instance, if she's still lactating that might tell the police something about how recently the baby could have been alive. Can she refuse to submit to an examination that would give them that information?

If she denies that there was ever a baby in the first place, can they force her to submit to a pelvic exam that evidences recent parturition? I assume they can compel a DNA sample to compare with the placental/chorionic tissue, but if the placenta is too degraded for a useful result, could they compel something more invasive?

Sorry if this is a bit grim for discussion. It's not a point of law that arises very often, I imagine, and I just thought it was interesting to consider what rights to bodily autonomy would remain after arrest for a serious crime.

It's a good question. I'm honestly not sure and can't find much. I wonder if blood/urine alone could potentially counter there never being a baby based off hormone levels?

 

[azure]

Given the charge under investigation is now manslaughter, what rights does CM have over her body, given that various aspects of it now have investigative value?

I mean, for instance, if she's still lactating that might tell the police something about how recently the baby could have been alive. Can she refuse to submit to an examination that would give them that information?

If she denies that there was ever a baby in the first place, can they force her to submit to a pelvic exam that evidences recent parturition? I assume they can compel a DNA sample to compare with the placental/chorionic tissue, but if the placenta is too degraded for a useful result, could they compel something more invasive?

Sorry if this is a bit grim for discussion. It's not a point of law that arises very often, I imagine, and I just thought it was interesting to consider what rights to bodily autonomy would remain after arrest for a serious crime.

They took samples of the placenta when it was found, so I don't think they will need to examine CM.

 

[JuicyLucy]

They took samples of the placenta when it was found, so I don't think they will need to examine CM.

I thought that too, but now they seem to be saying that they never established the sex of the baby, so perhaps those samples weren't usable, either because of what portion of the tissue was sampled (only the chorionic side has the baby's DNA) or because of damage from the intensely high temperature of the car fire, etc. I don't think it automatically goes without saying that they will have a usable DNA sample for the baby, or indeed that they have solid DNA evidence that the blood or placenta is CM's. The conclusion that the material belonged to CM and her presumed baby was probably arrived at in conjunction with the CCTV identification and some kind of administrative paper trail too.

I'm not saying that a flat denial that there was ever a baby would be plausible to my mind, but legally it might have mileage, depending on what samples were taken and how degraded they were or weren't.

JMO

 

[Stunned]

My gut feeling is that the baby is alive and well and with someone. Nothing to base this on, just a feeling. IMO

 

[lvbut]

I’ve been reading this since the start, after the car was broken down not far from where I live.

One thing that confused me is the burner phones and sims- these would need charging but I haven’t thought of a way they could organise this- even power banks need charging and being outside in the cold would drain the battery faster too

Some taxis have charging ports in them. I’m sure some buses and trains do too. I’ve charged my phone in all sorts of weird places on my travels.

 

[BensonP]

Ive been wondering this too. If the photos were posted at the time they were taken then it was 2020 so only 2-3 years ago. She was supposedly living an isolated and insular life since 2016 yet in the photos the children and her look happy, well clothed, clean etc etc. I did notice there's no photos of all the children together at the same time which I thought strange though and each child looks roughly the same age in the photos! I wonder if they were all removed from her care together or separately. Be interesting to know who has guardianship of these children.

The children have a right to privacy and there is no reason to know about guardianship

 

[JennieM]

Two taxi drivers have said they saw the baby moving and crying.

Moment police swoop to arrest Constance Marten's boyfriend Mark Gordon

Marten, 35, and Gordon, 48, were spotted withdrawing cash in Stanmer Villas, Brighton, on Monday evening before they were arrested following a tip-off from a member of the public.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[JennieM]

Moment police swoop to arrest aristocrat Constance Marten's boyfriend is revealed​

The footage obtained by The Mirror shows officers together with Gordon as they swoop in to arrest him.

Moment police swoop to arrest Constance Marten's boyfriend Mark Gordon

Marten, 35, and Gordon, 48, were spotted withdrawing cash in Stanmer Villas, Brighton, on Monday evening before they were arrested following a tip-off from a member of the public.

www.dailymail.co.uk

​

​

 

[Telltale]

Article from The Argus

A witness has described the moment they spotted missing Constance Marten and Mark Gordon just moments before they were arrested.

CCTV footage appearing to show missing Constance Marten and her partner Mark Gordon can be revealed by The Argus, just moments before they were arrested on Monday night.

The pair, believed to be Constance and Mark, were spotted walking along Stanmer Villas in Hollingdean – South at 8.40pm, and north at 9.25pm – Shortly before they were arrested by police.

The owner of the CCTV footage told The Argus: “We only noticed the footage of them after it all unravelled on Tuesday morning.”

They were understood to be returning from a convenience store in nearby Hollingbury Place when police officers swooped in on the area to arrest the couple, who have been on the run for 54 days.

The resident, who wished not to be named, added: “He was walking down with a stick, and on the way back – with his shopping – he was dragging the stick under his arms.”

The video also shows the pair walking a few metres apart having a loud, unintelligible conversation between each other.

The resident who captured the footage on their CCTV camera claims to have seen the pair in the shop, when he was going to play the lottery, on Sunday, February 26. They said: “The lady went into the shop, and when she came out, she started quietly arguing with the black guy.

“Subconsciously, I knew something wasn’t right. But I’ve not realised this until today.”

Metropolitan Police detective superintendent Lewis Basford said officers are looking into footage shared online of Gordon seen with a stick before he was arrested – adding that there was sufficient intelligence to suggest the pair had spent most of their time in outdoor open spaces while avoiding police.

Aristocrat Constance and her partner Mark went missing on January 5, in Bolton near Manchester when they abandoned their burning car. Since then, a manhunt has taken place across the country for the pair and their new-born baby.

Until they were found by police on Monday night in Brighton, they were last seen in Newhaven in Cantercrow Hill on January 8.

Police believed they were living a nomadic lifestyle, sleeping rough in a blue tent.

They were arrested shortly before 9.30pm on Monday, on suspicion of child neglect. This changed to being suspected of gross negligence manslaughter of their baby - who is yet to be found.

A large search, with more than 200 officers from Sussex Police and the Metropolitan Police has been underway in Brighton and the surrounding areas. There was a focus on the Roedale Valley allotments, where specialist officers were systematically searching the area in the hope of finding evidence that may point to the baby's whereabouts.

At one point, officers seized a small, pink pair of child's earmuffs.

...

Well it is certainly not all that comforting that at the point of arrest they would have left the baby alone for at least 45 minutes. Also, from the edge of the allotments to the shop is a 10 minute walk according to Google Maps, presumably around five from wherever on the road they're spotted the CCTV. So if it takes a 10/15 minute-ish round trip to get from the CCTV spot to the shop and back again... Well then they spent at least 30 minutes shopping or whatever else they were doing.

Not exactly hurrying back are they.

With his apparent limp, I am going to guess he might not be up for an extended hike into the countryside, especially if they have been seen a couple of days before this at that shop as well (though no mention of the baby then either.)

If I had to take a guess, I'd say if they were outside, their camp will turn up less than a hour, maybe even half-hour, walk from this shop. I'd also guess this is their closest shop, (or perhaps closest small corner shop less likely to have lots of people and CCTV) which could potentially narrow things down by excluding (not fully but preliminary) areas closer to other shops. Considering that and the Stanmer Villas road they chose to take to and away from the shops. I can see why police are focusing so hard on the allotment, woods and golf course area. It far and away makes the most sense in that context - than them having a camp half way to Newhaven.

On a slightly more hopeful note, CM did post on FB in 2016 asking if anyone wanted a drink on Brighton Pier. So it is not impossible, though it seems unlikely, that she could have friends in the area - we can only hope ones willing to take them and the baby in for a stretch.

 

[Amonet]

Given the charge under investigation is now manslaughter, what rights does CM have over her body, given that various aspects of it now have investigative value?

I mean, for instance, if she's still lactating that might tell the police something about how recently the baby could have been alive. Can she refuse to submit to an examination that would give them that information?

If she denies that there was ever a baby in the first place, can they force her to submit to a pelvic exam that evidences recent parturition? I assume they can compel a DNA sample to compare with the placental/chorionic tissue, but if the placenta is too degraded for a useful result, could they compel something more invasive?

Sorry if this is a bit grim for discussion. It's not a point of law that arises very often, I imagine, and I just thought it was interesting to consider what rights to bodily autonomy would remain after arrest for a serious crime.

I was going to ask similar about whether a blood sample (or urine) would show if she had been lactating recently, which might give an indication she was still caring for a live baby recently.

I think this is all hard ground for investigators. I sometimes see the blood samples thing turn up in US tv, and lawyers can be very determined against such a search, but a judge can give permission to force a blood test if they feel it's legal to do that. Over here, I guess you might also have to go to a judge for an invasive search. But we have two things here - investigation to see if the baby may have recently been alive and in CM's care (as in being breast-fed) and then longer term considerations for potential prosecution. I think the former is the current and major concern.

If this went to court as a manslaughter case, then if CM chose to argue that she hadn't been pregnant it would be about her legal team wanting to 'prove' that claim to a jury, and if she couldn't provide strong evidence of not being pregnant, I think there's plenty of circumstantial evidence (placenta and taxi drivers hearing a baby cry) for a jury to decide she did give birth to a live child. I don't see any legal need right now for an invasive (pelvic) exam on CM for investigative reasons, but that's just my thoughts.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

Sorry if this has been mentioned before. On 7 Jan they were spotted outside Harwich Port, which has links to the Netherlands and Europe. Could the baby had been given to someone to ferry out of the country or made arrangements for that to happen at a later time?

When is the last absolute positive sighting of the baby?

I just wanted to add that I had considered this today too, that maybe they met someone at one of the ports and the baby is not in the country now.