ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow - Tylee Ryan - Tammy Daybell - Charles Vallow - *Arrests* #67

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Ruminations said:
, pondering Prior's interest in John D as of Morman stories as a defense witness.

Maybe prior thinks such a witness could counter an assertion of the prosecution. But what assertion??? Hmmmm. This is not a witness who will deny some whacky beliefs are mainstream- even if mainstream worshipers are unaware. Maybe Prior wants a witness to say Lori and Chad are not so extreme- and being that your average LDS worshipper does not murder multiple people, the prosecution's whole premise is flawed.
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I think you nailed it - that LVD and CD will want to have a knowledgeable witness to counter any claim they have wild beliefs, or were trying to start a "cult," with the revelation that there are MANY such LDS sub-groups with focus on end times, future preparedness, and flexibility to embrace what they feel is being revealed to them by someone with a closer tie to God. "These guys are just one of many, doing what they all do, each in their own particular way following what they have believed is God's right way."
 
KonaHonu said:
I think what Chad and Lori believed and did is way beyond any mainstream religion. But the thing is, constitutional protection does not depend on being mainstream. I could certainly see showing that they sincerely believed that people "go dark" or turn into zombies and must then be eliminated could be part of the defense if only to have grounds for appeal on religious freedom grounds later. It would appear from all we have heard that they actually did sincerely believe this. Yes, it is bat $4it crazy to me.
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SBM. Freedom of religion does not give you permission to kill people. As long as Lori and Chad were aware of that, they can't use their beliefs as an excuse for their actions.
 
SteveS said:
I think there's a reasonable chance it's a "just-in-case" fishing expedition on everything said by CD now in the possession of LE. I'm not saying there's nothing there, but not sure there is something of use either. As LVD's attorneys argued it, they want to get it to assess it for themselves because "the defense doesn't know what the defense doesn't have" - aka "you can't know what you don't know until you know it."

Additionally, I suspect they are also looking for any pertinent and perhaps significant evidence LE has kept undisclosed (which would be illegal and unconstitutional), because the state is already dealing with issues of illegal withholding of evidence in these cases. They've been sloppy at best, and deliberately going over the line at worst. When the evidence against the client is overwhelming,BBM and thats
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Archibald has asked for that at the end of the brief.
 
indicolite22 said:
SBM. Freedom of religion does not give you permission to kill people. As long as Lori and Chad were aware of that, they can't use their beliefs as an excuse for their actions.
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Tom Green and Warren Jeffs come to mind, both justified child rape, as a "religious belief". They also professed to be members of the LDS religion, Fundamentalist. The "true" church.

It didn't work for either one.
 
SteveS said:
I think there's a reasonable chance it's a "just-in-case" fishing expedition on everything said by CD now in the possession of LE. I'm not saying there's nothing there, but not sure there is something of use either. As LVD's attorneys argued it, they want to get it to assess it for themselves because "the defense doesn't know what the defense doesn't have" - aka "you can't know what you don't know until you know it."

Additionally, I suspect they are also looking for any pertinent and perhaps significant evidence LE has kept undisclosed (which would be illegal and unconstitutional), because the state is already dealing with issues of illegal withholding of evidence in these cases. They've been sloppy at best, and deliberately going over the line at worst. When the evidence against the client is overwhelming, significant misdeeds by the state in regards to defendant's rights is one potential avenue to get such a case dismissed.
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It might be as simple as the attornies' attempt to introduce Lori to the real mortal Chad, if the real mortal Chad is evident on calls.

But unless Lori is explicitly attacked, it would probably do little to change her belief in their priest and priestess powers. Lori could just rationalize that he can't talk about certain things on a recorded line.

I'm not defending missing deadlines, etc. but I seriously doubt the prosecution failed to turn over anything relevant to their case or anything exculpating months or years ago- save for the recent DNA. It is sad and anxiety producing that they seemed to do the minimum required- or less so with the 1 day late thing- rather than just doc dump it all on the defense. I think they overreacted to means' lies about failing to turn over disclosure by over asserting their "right" to just turn over the information that inculpates or exculpates. Then Prior continued Means' game, as did Lori's current attorneys. And the prosecution just looks childish. Imagine managing to appear more childish than Means!

MOO
 
indicolite22 said:
indicolite22 said:
SBM. Freedom of religion does not give you permission to kill people. As long as Lori and Chad were aware of that, they can't use their beliefs as an excuse for their actions.
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Right. At best it's mitigation. Mental illness and/or my church said Jesus was cool with it. The second acknowledges the crime, so I can't imagine the defense leading with it. The first does admit guilt to an extent but could remove some or all intention.
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If this was about "religion" and "mental incapacity" LVD and CD would have happily talked to LEO, admitting that they had killed Tylee and JJ, and buried them according to their religious beliefs. After all, there is nothing illegal or wrong about following "orders from God".

Instead, they fled to Hawaii, living their twisted fantasy life, on the cash of Tammy Daybell's life insurance policy money, and Social Security checks, intended for Tylee and JJ. That is intent, knowledge and fraud. Complete awareness that their actions were criminal.
 
SteveS said:
I think you nailed it - that LVD and CD will want to have a knowledgeable witness to counter any claim they have wild beliefs, or were trying to start a "cult," with the revelation that there are MANY such LDS sub-groups with focus on end times, future preparedness, and flexibility to embrace what they feel is being revealed to them by someone with a closer tie to God. "These guys are just one of many, doing what they all do, each in their own particular way following what they have believed is God's right way."
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Are you an attorney? I’m not not being sarcastic or anything. You seem to have extensive knowledge of law matters in this case. Just curious.
 
SteveS said:
I think you nailed it - that LVD and CD will want to have a knowledgeable witness to counter any claim they have wild beliefs, or were trying to start a "cult," with the revelation that there are MANY such LDS sub-groups with focus on end times, future preparedness, and flexibility to embrace what they feel is being revealed to them by someone with a closer tie to God. "These guys are just one of many, doing what they all do, each in their own particular way following what they have believed is God's right way."
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I agree. If CD is going with a not guilty plea, he's going to need to convince the jury that he's just a normal, everyday LDS guy who just happened to cross paths with the real killers (LVD and/or Alex) but had no idea what they planned to do. And to convince anyone that he was ignorant of what they planned, he's going to have to convince the jury that the real killer misconstrued the things that he was telling them, which were obviously totally "normal" LDS beliefs (and/or works of fiction).

(Obviously, it's going to be a different, more difficult hurdle to explain away any physical evidence that places him at the scene of any of these deaths, but with the way the media has latched onto the cult aspect of this, he has to know that the things he taught are going to come up.)

MOO
 
wnk said:
I agree. If CD is going with a not guilty plea, he's going to need to convince the jury that he's just a normal, everyday LDS guy who just happened to cross paths with the real killers (LVD and/or Alex) but had no idea what they planned to do. And to convince anyone that he was ignorant of what they planned, he's going to have to convince the jury that the real killer misconstrued the things that he was telling them, which were obviously totally "normal" LDS beliefs (and/or works of fiction).

(Obviously, it's going to be a different, more difficult hurdle to explain away any physical evidence that places him at the scene of any of these deaths, but with the way the media has latched onto the cult aspect of this, he has to know that the things he taught are going to come up.)

MOO
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ah, but he knew the children were dead and that those dead children were buried on his property, even if he did not kill them himself. By not reporting those deaths and subsequent burials to authorities, he has compounded his guilt IMO. Source for my first sentence is the call between Chad and Lori shortly before Chads arrest.

www.dailymail.co.uk

REVEALED: Lori and Chad's call minutes before cops found kids' bodies

Lori Vallow called Chad Daybell from jail on the morning of June 9 - about 15 minutes before investigators discovered the remains of her missing children on his property in Salem, Idaho.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk


ETA source
 
mickey2942 said:
If this was about "religion" and "mental incapacity" LVD and CD would have happily talked to LEO, admitting that they had killed Tylee and JJ, and buried them according to their religious beliefs. After all, there is nothing illegal or wrong about following "orders from God".

Instead, they fled to Hawaii, living their twisted fantasy life, on the cash of Tammy Daybell's life insurance policy money, and Social Security checks, intended for Tylee and JJ. That is intent, knowledge and fraud. Complete awareness that their actions were criminal.
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I beg to differ- depending on the orders and the local laws, it could be illegal and/or wrong to act on orders from god.

Illegal: stealing medicine to save a child's life because God said so.

Wrong: bullying a trans kid because god said so.

Illegal and wrong: killing spouses&children because God said so.

MOO
 
So, they knew it was illegal to kill people (according to the laws of the US government) but they ascribe to a higher calling and believe themselves to be extra-ethereally chosen and special. So, by not admitting guilt under US government laws... IF found guilty, are they trying to send a "we are martyrs" message (especially) to those who follow their religious beliefs??

Obviously, I don't "get" any of their belief system plans.
 
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SteveS said:
I'm not fastidious about the schedule. But what I know is that
1 When we had conjoined trials planned, there was a pre-trial hearing scheduled for everyone on Mar 9.
2 Then they severed the trials, with CD's moved to the fall or later, and my guess was that CD's hearing was canceled, but LVD's would still be needed and held on Mar 9.
3 There was a new order today for a hearing for LVD on Mar 15. I assume that's the one that was previously planned for Mar 9.

In looking at the scheduling orders, I am reminded of the questionable (and perhaps EGREGIOUS) behavior of the DA's office in the discovery process. I noticed in the list of written items the state's Thirteenth Supplemental Discovery Disclosure which contained some miscellaneous items and reminders of possible items that the state was pointing out to the defense. While nothing in there would seem to be a big deal necessarily, the problem with it is that the state chose to file it the next day AFTER the court's deadline to get everything to the defense. The state's excuse? Well, it was close, and we didn't think any of it was highly important, so what's the biggie. While I am hoping LVD fries for her crimes, I think the court is likely to take great offense over the prosecutors' incompetent/negligent behavior and cavalier attitude toward the court. We may see on the 15th.
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I appreciate your posts. The actions of the prosecutor and the judge over the years is what has led me to believe one of these two may walk. The death penalty may be dropped and/or the prosecutor may reduce charges. I still question why.
 
Love Never Fails said:
I appreciate your posts. The actions of the prosecutor and the judge over the years is what has led me to believe one of these two may walk. The death penalty may be dropped and/or the prosecutor may reduce charges. I still question why.
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Since we are sure that LVD and CD will blame AC for the killings. I am interested in how CD will wriggle out of the charge for killing his wife, Tammy Daybell.

As for LVD, she is responsible for conspiracy in the deaths of Tylee and JJ, and even if she gets lesser charges, she still faces charges in Arizona for death of Charles Vallow.

I don't see either one getting off.
 
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