Found Deceased WA - Julie Montague Ayers, 67, got separated from her partner while walking the dog, has dementia, Mt Baker Natl Forest, Kendall, 10 Mar 2023

[Stunned]

Is that her partner in the photo?

Thank you for asking!

 

[annpats]

My father is older with health issues and goes walking alone daily on unincorporated forested trails that are known to have landslides, cougars, bears, water, etc. This is in a less rural area of WA, BTW. He's reported very rarely seeing other walkers when he is on certain trails and there are certain ones that he has never seen another person on. These kinds of stories are why I am so fearful when he does this!
I don't know this specific trail Julie disappeared from, but I wouldn't be surprised if walkers on the trail are rare and if you can go hours without seeing somebody, because that would not be unheard of.

Oh my! That is petrifying! I would hate my father to do that, and would do everything in my power to stop it, although the reality is, of course, that you can't.

Suburban walks are nice! Little small local parks! Try and convince him?

 

[Auntie Cipation]

No, no caregiver of a person with dementia would do that. The person with dementia can forget they were supposed to stay, like in a split second. They can have a bout of confusion, panic and start walking in a random direction. The partner of a person with dementia would know that perfectly well.

I'd like to add the perspective, from my own life experience, that dementia is an evolving, progressive disease. The person doesn't typically go directly from 100% to confused.

Thus it can easily be unclear to a companion/caregiver what the patient's current capabilities are, as they will be constantly changing.

Also, the dementia patient may well insist they are still capable, and it can feel awkward and disrespectful, especially in a close relationship, to completely disregard the patient's experience even if the companion knows the patient's self-assessment to be inaccurate.

So when a person insists "I want to go for a walk on our usual trail" or "I'll be fine to wait here while you go find cell reception" it can be painfully hard to tell the loved one no without appearing to disregard their feelings. They are autonomous adults with their own rights, including the right to make poor choices, all the way up until they are medically declared otherwise.

I'm reluctant to be at all critical of the partner here.

MOO

 

[WingsOverTX]

I'd like to add the perspective, from my own life experience, that dementia is an evolving, progressive disease. The person doesn't typically go from 100% to confused.

Thus it can easily be unclear to a companion/caregiver what the patient's current capabilities are, as they will be constantly changing.

Also, the dementia patient may well insist they are still capable, and it can feel awkward and disrespectful, especially in a close relationship, to completely disregard the patient's experience even if the companion knows the patient's self-assessment to be inaccurate.

So when a person insists "I want to go for a walk on our usual trail" or "I'll be fine to wait here while you go find cell reception" it can be painfully hard to tell the loved one no without appearing to disregard their feelings. They are autonomous adults with their own rights, including the right to make poor choices, all the way up until they are medically declared otherwise.

I'm reluctant to be at all critical of the partner here.

MOO

Yes. Dementia is so individual in presentation & is a different diagnosis than Alzheimer's. Symptoms of both occur along a spectrum with individual difficulties increasing the longer someone has either.

Your description is so apt & it's important we all educate ourselves about both dementia & Alzheimer's.

Caregivers (especially family) deal with so many challenges & helping one's spouse while watching them lose degrees of mental & physical functioning is very difficult.

JMA having moderate symptoms may mean a better outcome although as the days pass, fears for her welfare increase.

Still hoping for a miracle for this woman.

JMO

 

[Hestia's Fire]

I can't be too critical of her partner for the fact that they got separated because I know how quickly someone with dementia can get lost, especially in a heavily wooded area. But I do keep coming back to the huge gap in time from the time she vanished until he called the police to report her missing, and I wish someone in law enforcement or the media would address why it took so long. He may have had a perfectly understandable reason, but for the life of me I just can't think what it would be and I keep imagining how differently this situation might have turned out if SAR had been dispatched hours earlier. Really hoping that somehow she's beaten the odds and found a warm place to hole up and she'll be rescued soon.

 

[Hexe]

I'd like to add the perspective, from my own life experience, that dementia is an evolving, progressive disease. The person doesn't typically go directly from 100% to confused.

The bouts of confusion and disorientation are though among the early symptoms of dementia, especially Alzheimer's disease. Also speaking from my life experience here, by the way. So yeah, I do not think Julie's partner would let her out of sight during a walk in the woods, even if he himself got lost. This is not a criticism of him because we do not know the exact circumstances in which he lost her from his sight.

What I definitely would criticise is that multi hour gap between Julie vanishing and her partner calling 911. Considering that a person with dementia can get lost hopelessly even in front of their own home, and even completely lucid people can easily get lost in the woods, I would be calling the LE ASAP. Someone with dementia, even a moderate one is not a person able to find their way home, so why wait?

 

[Springrain]

I can't be too critical of her partner for the fact that they got separated because I know how quickly someone with dementia can get lost, especially in a heavily wooded area. But I do keep coming back to the huge gap in time from the time she vanished until he called the police to report her missing, and I wish someone in law enforcement or the media would address why it took so long. He may have had a perfectly understandable reason, but for the life of me I just can't think what it would be and I keep imagining how differently this situation might have turned out if SAR had been dispatched hours earlier. Really hoping that somehow she's beaten the odds and found a warm place to hole up and she'll be rescued soon.

This is my exact perspective, too.

 

[Lilibet]

Last seen walking the network of trails near the Sprague Valley Drive vicinity.
There are houses in the area, but also water too, and quarries.
Needless to say, the forest areas are quite sense looking also.

Friends of our used to live in Peaceful Valley across the road from the area where she was last seen. As I recall, cell service wasn’t great (back in 2005-6), so her partner may have been reluctant to leave the area to call 9-11. The woods are quite dense. If she moved quickly while her partner was taking a photograph, for example, she could be out of sight easily. I’m not too optimistic, but hoping for a miracle.

 

[Jade]

I saw an article on my Goggle news feed I meant to bookmark. I’ve linked the closest thing I can find now.

The other article noted the considerable distance a mild sufferer can cover as they are not thinking of things like hunger or time passing.

This search and rescue article is based anecdotal case studies.



>

The working hypothesis for their overall behavior is they wander in a basically straight line until they get stuck in some type of barrier.

>

Critical wanderers once they are lost appear to leave few clues and seldom seek help (shout or signal)

>

A search and rescue incident commander has suggested the possibility of an East-West trend related to the phenomena of sundowning, common among AD wanders.2



The Lost Alzheimer's and Related Disorders Search Subject



All imo

 

[annpats]

I saw an article on my Goggle news feed I meant to bookmark. I’ve linked the closest thing I can find now.

The working hypothesis for their overall behavior is they wander in a basically straight line until they get stuck in some type of barrier.

SBM.

So interesting, isn't it? I loved studies in human behaviour.

I wonder when they hit the barrier so they can't continue on a straight line, what they do then?
Do they stop there....or do they choose another straight line and carry on, and repeat?

 

[ex-stat]

I'm really sorry. Judging from the map this is an absolutely horrible search area. I too hope that Julie has found somewhere warm and will beat the odds.

 

[RickshawFan]

I saw an article on my Goggle news feed I meant to bookmark. I’ve linked the closest thing I can find now.

The other article noted the considerable distance a mild sufferer can cover as they are not thinking of things like hunger or time passing.

This search and rescue article is based anecdotal case studies.



>

The working hypothesis for their overall behavior is they wander in a basically straight line until they get stuck in some type of barrier.

>

Critical wanderers once they are lost appear to leave few clues and seldom seek help (shout or signal)

>

A search and rescue incident commander has suggested the possibility of an East-West trend related to the phenomena of sundowning, common among AD wanders.2



The Lost Alzheimer's and Related Disorders Search Subject



All imo

I recommend the Harvard lecture by Robert Koester, who was the founder of the science of "lost person behavior". He talks about people with dementia.

 

[RickshawFan]

I'm really sorry. Judging from the map this is an absolutely horrible search area. I too hope that Julie has found somewhere warm and will beat the odds.

What makes the search area horrible? Can you show the map?

 

[annpats]

So when a person insists "I want to go for a walk on our usual trail" or "I'll be fine to wait here while you go find cell reception" it can be painfully hard to tell the loved one no without appearing to disregard their feelings. They are autonomous adults with their own rights, including the right to make poor choices, all the way up until they are medically declared otherwise.

I'm reluctant to be at all critical of the partner here.

No real blame on the partner as yet, as we haven't heard exactly what transpired (although I don't think the best choices were made, but still.......)

You write "they are autonomous adults with their own rights and the right to make poor choices,all the way up until they're declared medically otherwise" and I absolutely 100% agree. Their life, their choice.

BUT!

in terms of safeguarding, how does that work from the spouse/partner/caregiver perspective? At what point do they let the person with dementia continue to make their own choice, if it may lead to their harm or compromise their safety?

Could that spouse/partner ever be legally liable or responsible for their death, if something happened?

 

[Auntie Cipation]

@annpats it's a tricky situation for sure.

I think the balance is to get the medical diagnosis that the person is no longer competent to make their own decisions just before they reach the point where real harm may come. (but otherwise as late as possible, assuming the person wants to continue living on their own).

One example is when my mother wanted to go buy another car after hers had been damaged beyond repair. She'd been having minor accidents but nothing major and still had her license. I could only refuse to help her (I won't drive you to the dealership, for example) but if she had had the wherewithal to, say, call a taxi to the dealership, I could not have legally stopped her, nor could I have prevented her from spending her money on another car. Keeping a driver's license is another matter, though, since it involves risk to others. I could have and would have contacted the DMV with my concern over her driving, if she had indeed managed to buy another car.

In my case I was able to persuade my mother to move to a retirement/assisted living facility well before she was diagnosed with dementia. She probably could have lived alone for several more years, if she had managed to arrange things like food delivery. Maybe she would have fallen down the stairs or left the stove on and caught the house on fire, but those kinds of things are hard to identify the exact point where the risk is no longer acceptable -- we ALL have the potential to do those things at any stage of life.

Even in the facility, though, she was legally responsible for herself until some point was reached where she was moved to the memory care area where residents could no longer come and go as they pleased. I really doubt the facility would have been liable if, during her early years there in "Independent Living", she had gone out for a walk and gotten lost or had an accident.

A different situation would be if the person lived in a regular home with a family or hired caregiver. I think the same process would apply in which the person is legally responsible for themselves until the doctor declares otherwise, at which point I would assume the caregiver becomes responsible for any harm the patient does -- to others or to property.

I would expect the caregiver to be legally responsible for making sure the patient had their basic needs met, food/hydration, safe shelter, etc. But I wouldn't expect them to be prosecuted for an accident unless there was clear neglect -- much like a parent with a child, I suppose.

Caveat: I have no official or legal knowledge on this, I'm just a child of a parent with dementia. This is all MOO

 

[Jade]

SBM.

So interesting, isn't it? I loved studies in human behaviour.

I wonder when they hit the barrier so they can't continue on a straight line, what they do then?
Do they stop there....or do they choose another straight line and carry on, and repeat?

Go until they get totally immobilized like caught up in shrubs or down a ravine.

There is a description of circling and there is also a “ping pong” behavior noticed when the barrier is not something they get totally caught up in but just blocks them.

From that article though it still seems that who knows; depends on severity, if they have wandered before and if it is goal wandering [going home] or random [headed somewhere then got confused].

Haven’t viewed RickshawsFan’s video yet though I’m sure it will be informative.



The recommendation is to call for help within 15 minutes of noticing them missing.




IMO

 

[RickshawFan]

This by Bob Koester details HOW a search plan is developed. The sponsoring agency is AdventureSmart, a Canadian organization tasked with reducing backcountry accidents. This one's more focused on wilderness IIRC, but Alzheimer's missing are an important chunk in Koester's data. I don't own his book (it's very expensive), but Alzheimer's cases have a different search protocol than others.

 

[slowpoke]

I'd like to add the perspective, from my own life experience, that dementia is an evolving, progressive disease. The person doesn't typically go directly from 100% to confused.
MOO

Snipped, for my reply to this portion of your great post:
I just wanted to add that (from my experience with my dad who had dementia) we saw that the progression downhill was not totally linear.

I saw him one day and he wouldn’t respond to me at all, and I thought “Wow, he’s really declined even more” and thought that was how he’d be henceforward. But then the next time I saw him, he was more verbal and responsive. So, they seem to have better days and worse days as they decline. Imo

Another thing I wanted to say that may be more relevant to this case is that I think sometimes it unfortunately takes a crisis incident before one’s eyes are opened to the fact that the dementia patient needs more intensified care than prior. Imo

 

[Limecat]

Yes, it's a distance of approx. 6 miles from their house. So, still quite local to them.
But given her condition, I think a little walk around a small suburban park would've been better and more manageable.

I mean, a winter walk on a cold day, in a rural area, on trails in heavy forest, near water, abandoned mines, cougars etc....that would be crazy for most able-minded people!

I wonder if there were many other walkers out on those trails? Nobody has reported seeing her at all.

I’m catching up, but your post made me wonder if anyone saw her partner at that time, alone. Hopefully this is all what it seems and just a terrible tragedy. Praying Julie is found soon and safe! All IMO and speculation.

ETA Changed husband to partner. Meant no disrespect

 

[ex-stat]

What makes the search area horrible? Can you show the map?

Julie's last seen location is the trail system near Sprague Valley Drive, Peaceful Valley, Washington state. It is near a lot of woods, wilderness and other features. It is heavily wooded and vast. There are not many roads at all especially in a southerly direction. There are vast woods/wilderness to the south and west. It looks very dense. Not good visibility from above. It is just difficult, that is all. That is not to say she will not be found, and that she has not managed to stay in somewhere with shelter. I hope they find her.