4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 76

[PrairieWind]

I'm so confused. The company in question is not the company that actually found the DNA on the sheath. They just sent their results to them, is how I'm reading it.

At the time they sent it, they were treating it as if it were a sample from a missing persons (unknown person) case, because at that time, it was.

This company could be challenged by the defense, of course, but there's no reason to even use its findings. They now have the actual person of Bryan Kohberger, took his DNA directly from him (I believe it was 5-6 swabs) and it matches what was on the sheath. Before that, they were looking for clues as to who the DNA-donor might be and that's where Othram may have helped. For all we know they also used GEDMatch. IOW, they used the two main providers of matching missing person DNA to a person - and they got a hit on the Kohberger family (they also had WSU mentioning Kohberger to them).

They verified that Kohberger did indeed have a white Elantra, and of course, they had his phone number from the geofencing.

Voilà!

Once they had BK's own DNA, such companies as Othram became superfluous. To me, it's like they had a phone number and started looking at reverse phone books from various places.

IMO. IME. It's now completely irrelevant (and someone in the investigation is leaking to News Nation <modsnip> IMO).

I think we are talking passed each other. My understanding was ID lab didn't find anything, and sent the item to this company. If they then located this DNA and provided the results as our suspects, they must show how and use a methodology that is admissible. It must be peer reviewed, tested, failure rates known and understood. If there is no further sample to test, and those criteria are not met, there may be no DNA evidence from the sheath admitted at trial. But my opinions are based just upon a very sketchy news report that probably does not accurately reflect the true facts. But my point is, that just because his DNA is found, doesn't mean that it will be admissible at trial.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

I am just so confused as to why any expert testimony from Othram would be required at trial.

Thoughts?

AFAIK Othram was hired by LE to see if BK's DNA identity could be found through use of forensic genealogy when they didn't get a match for any known criminal in CODIS, and the methods they use could need to be explained by one of their experts <modsnip: not an approved source> JMO

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

Before we assume the PCA is wrong, perhaps we should acknowledge that we don't know what information Pullman's interview panel was given and whether it was passed on to Moscow PD accurately. There are a lot of possible scenarios between everything being presented and shared truthfully and accurately by all parties and someone lied like a rug or totally screwed up the PCA. MOOooo

And I’ll add the potential for innocent confusion. From what I can tell, BCK perhaps applied for two different positions with Pullman PD? MOO, there’s the one in Fall, 2022 referenced in the PCA, but there’s also apparently an earlier 4/2022 interview not referenced in the PCA AFAIK:
https://int.nyt.com/data/documentto...n-police-department/3688fa7c8227a163/full.pdf

 

[Bogbacal2]

doordash went back to 1.1.2022. that's a heck of a scope imo jmo and when matched up to some of the other dates, I had several theories. These are all based on fitting the facts together, I'm not tied to one theory, it's jmo and icbw.
One potential scenario was that BK was using DD as his cover, may have even tried posing as a driver and 'accidentally' delivering to their address, and potentially someone involved in the case (DM or BF) recognized him after he was IDd by LE and said 'hey, that's a door dash guy"
but
another scenario, based on combinations of other warrants says maybe there was a bigger issue and a DD person was an informant. based on the motions/orders, 'confidential source' is mentioned a number of times and the orders to seal state one reason as (2) The documents contain facts or statements that might threaten the safety of or endanger the life or safety of individuals

but whose life? BK is in jail, 4 people are dead, the 2 surviving roommates' were not involved and their names are known, so whose life?

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723%20Order%20to%20Seal%20%20Redact%20-%20DoorDash%20Inc.pdf

Door Dash 1.1.2022 Warrant dated 12.6.22

A friend of mine is a DD driver. When you get “verified”, you work when you want to. Turn on the DD app, login when want to work. Wonder if maybe BK did that, and he could login, show active but never really picked up orders but just watched the orders coming in…has a map. Could potentially see when 1122 Kings Rd ordered? You accept which orders if any you want to pick up-maybe he tried to just get their orders if no o other dasher claimed it before he did. Throwing out thoughts!

 

[10ofRods]

this quote is messed up idk why, but no hogging the spotlight - I get to be the bad one here lol

honestly, whether it was degree or academic background or just a coloring book about cloud-based dynamics, the things I cited still just do not make sense to me for someone w/ his level of knowledge and training. I just wish it made sense. jmo imo icbw

If you ever get a chance to talk to some crime-committers, you'll find that most of them have no clue why they made the mistakes they did or even, overall, why they did it.

This is actually true of much of human behavior. People cannot explain themselves, to themselves. I know that being on WS helps me handle a certain kind of anxiety, a kind of existential dread. I have a written record of both what I read, and notes about what was going on in my life at the time. I know what I do and read when I'm depressed, and what I do and read when I'm anxious. Indeed, reading and writing are my own main coping skills.

But other people throw themselves into fierce physical activity. Others fantasize an external cause for their internal discomfort - some people believe there is a real external cause for their depression or anxiety (I had ever reason to be anxious at certain points in my life). There's only so much the human brain can compute or do; the limbic system (emotional wiring/biochemistry) is what it is, for each person. We know that the more a person thinks about something, the more likely they are to think even more about it in future. That's the basis of the most commonly used forms of psychotherapy (CBT and DBT) these days.

I have posted several times about how knowledge, education and training do not change this. My own guilty pleasure is reading all the many books about doctors who murder.

IMO.

 

[deugirtni]

Before we assume the PCA is wrong, perhaps we should acknowledge that we don't know what information Pullman's interview panel was given and whether it was passed on to Moscow PD accurately. There are a lot of possible scenarios between everything being presented and shared truthfully and accurately by all parties and someone lied like a rug or totally screwed up the PCA. MOOooo

I'm not one that is assuming the PCA is wrong, however, this is why I ask.... if that is the case, then what else can't be trusted in the PCA? The PCA said the information was provided BY a person ON the interview panel the police department... so one of their own. Presumably since it came directly from someone on the interview panel, that information would've come from either BK's resume (would he lie about a degree on a resume which may get followed up on?), or their own check they may have done. I'm willing to go with it at this point.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

A friend of mine is a DD driver. When you get “verified”, you work when you want to. Turn on the DD app, login when want to work. Wonder if maybe BK did that, and he could login, show active but never really picked up orders but just watched the orders coming in…has a map. Could potentially see when 1122 Kings Rd ordered? You accept which orders if any you want to pick up-maybe he tried to just get their orders if no o other dasher claimed it before he did. Throwing out thoughts!

WOW, that could be interesting! I wonder if, too.... we know there's PC and this could be a link. now I have to do some more research because this would fit with one of my original theories on him posing as dd - excellent share! thank you! all jmo imo

editing to a that maybe DM didn't recognize the killer at the time, but after being shown a photo said something along the lines of "that's one of our Dashers!". The statement in the PCA has always put my spidey senses on alert. all jmo imo

I'd think that if he were a DD someone in MSM would have found that out about him, but maybe not. Dashers are not employees, and maybe ???? more research ahead... jmo imo

And DD did just implement that add'l security measure DoorDash Customer Support

for additional info, there is a video site that you can search for updated security measures implemented recently I will ask if I can add one here

Hiring Delivery Drivers: What You Need to Know

What do businesses need to know when hiring delivery drivers? Learn about contractor versus employee classification, hiring best practices, and more.

get.doordash.com

 

[10ofRods]

I think we are talking passed each other. My understanding was ID lab didn't find anything, and sent the item to this company. If they then located this DNA and provided the results as our suspects, they must show how and use a methodology that is admissible. It must be peer reviewed, tested, failure rates known and understood. If there is no further sample to test, and those criteria are not met, there may be no DNA evidence from the sheath admitted at trial. But my opinions are based just upon a very sketchy news report that probably does not accurately reflect the true facts. But my point is, that just because his DNA is found, doesn't mean that it will be admissible at trial.

I guess I haven't read that, and from Othram's website, it doesn't seem likely to me that that's what they did (given how they describe their mission and what they do).

Does anyone have a citation actually stating that Othram had possession of the sheath? Because from what I understand from their website and in talking to colleagues about what this place does, it appears to me that they only work with computerized results of data taking from many different kinds of evidence:

Othram - A Revolution in Cold Case Resolution

Othram is revolutionizing how forensic cases are solved, justice is served, and families are mended.

othram.com

It's state of the art sequencing, with some of the best "junk DNA" detection in the business, but I don't think we have any evidence that the sheath itself traveled to Texas. Or do we? Did I miss that? Is it just News Nation who says that?

There's no point to using the Othram data at this point - as they have better evidence, is what I'm saying.

I don't see how sending the results of the sheath DNA to Texas is relevant at trial, whatsoever (since they have other, better ways to connect BK to his own DNA).

It is not my understanding that the ID lab "found nothing." Does anyone have any MSM or other citation that says that, because it seems like a very important fact, if true and I find it very, very hard to believe it hasn't been covered in reputable local media.

IMO.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

I guess I haven't read that, and from Othram's website, it doesn't seem likely to me that that's what they did (given how they describe their mission and what they do).

Does anyone have a citation actually stating that Othram had possession of the sheath? Because from what I understand from their website and in talking to colleagues about what this place does, it appears to me that they only work with computerized results of data taking from many different kinds of evidence:

Othram - A Revolution in Cold Case Resolution

Othram is revolutionizing how forensic cases are solved, justice is served, and families are mended.

othram.com

It's state of the art sequencing, with some of the best "junk DNA" detection in the business, but I don't think we have any evidence that the sheath itself traveled to Texas. Or do we? Did I miss that? Is it just News Nation who says that?

There's no point to using the Othram data at this point - as they have better evidence, is what I'm saying.

I don't see how sending the results of the sheath DNA to Texas is relevant at trial, whatsoever (since they have other, better ways to connect BK to his own DNA).

It is not my understanding that the ID lab "found nothing." Does anyone have any MSM or other citation that says that, because it seems like a very important fact, if true and I find it very, very hard to believe it hasn't been covered in reputable local media.

IMO.

Here is one link to an MSM article that says "the lab in Idaho couldn't find anything", but I would consider the source and consider the possibility that they are spinning things or unintentionally leaving out qualifying words -- i.e., IMO it should say "the lab in Idaho couldn't find anything in the CODIS database of DNA for known criminals", otherwise it is misleading.

""They sent it first to the lab in Idaho, and the lab in Idaho couldn't find anything. So they thought this might be a dead end," Blum said on The Megyn Kelly Show earlier in March."

Bryan Kohberger defense gets boost over knife sheath DNA—Attorney

 

[crumbcleaner]

A friend of mine is a DD driver. When you get “verified”, you work when you want to. Turn on the DD app, login when want to work. Wonder if maybe BK did that, and he could login, show active but never really picked up orders but just watched the orders coming in…has a map. Could potentially see when 1122 Kings Rd ordered? You accept which orders if any you want to pick up-maybe he tried to just get their orders if no o other dasher claimed it before he did. Throwing out thoughts!

In my experience as a dasher on occasion, I do not see the address or name of the person ordering until I accept an order. I see an approximate distance from restaurant to delivery location. Unless it is different in different regions or there is something I am not accessing that I could be, AFAIK you don’t just see all the addresses ordering food and choose who you want to take on. Hope that makes sense.

 

[U.N. Known]

I confirmed, Xana graduated HS in 2020.

jmo imo

My intent isn't to make the case more interesting, but there are so many questions and curious events, that between that and the dates and scope of the warrants, I feel compelled to consider. ICBW, it's jmo imo, but I can't look at blanks and fill them in one way, so this keeps me busy and occupied which is esp important since I don't have adult supervision (that's a joke, I'm an adult )

Post Falls Middle and High School, where she played volleyball, track and soccer until she graduated in 2020.

Xana Kernodle, 20

Xana Kernodle of Post Falls, Idaho, sadly passed away far too soon on Nov. 13, 2022, at the age of 20.

cdapress.com

Thanks for that information. That's what happens when we (er, I!) assume. I though I saw that she was listed as a freshman and assumed that she graduated from HS in 2022,

As for the curious events, I completely agree and I will be very interested to see if there is a case within the case so-to-speak.

 

[10ofRods]

AFAIK Othram was hired by LE to see if BK's DNA identity could be found through use of forensic genealogy when they didn't get a match for any known criminal in CODIS, and the methods they use could need to be explained by one of their experts because <modsnip: not an approved source> JMO

This is my understanding as well. It's a service just like GEDMatch, in my opinion. It helped them in the early phase of the investigation, but the genetic genealogy is now moot.

It's very helpful to those who work in LE to know how this went down, but this aspect is not relevant to the future trial of Kohberger, IMO.

Here is one link to an MSM article that says "the lab in Idaho couldn't find anything", but I would consider the source and consider the possibility that they are spinning things or unintentionally leaving out qualifying words -- i.e., IMO it should say "the lab in Idaho couldn't find anything in the CODIS database of DNA for known criminals", otherwise it is misleading.

""They sent it first to the lab in Idaho, and the lab in Idaho couldn't find anything. So they thought this might be a dead end," Blum said on The Megyn Kelly Show earlier in March."

Bryan Kohberger defense gets boost over knife sheath DNA—Attorney

Yes - I do believe the reporter doesn't understand the situation. I do believe there's quite a bit of spin here - it does work to get people to discuss.

If the lab in Idaho "couldn't find anything" then how did they send something to a lab in another state? They didn't send an empty envelope, that's for sure. That sheath was in Idaho, the testing of the DNA was done there, and then they sent the result to Othram. If there had been "nothing" on the sheath, then all the other steps could not take place. Full stop.

IME and IMO.

 

[Bogbacal2]

The order is not quite clear. The PCA claims that Kohlberger's car was called in at the end of November. Him being pulled over in Moscow late at night months prior probably rang alarm bells all over the place (this is where marathon sessions of Forensic Files and Cold Case files pays off). The officer noted the bushy eye brows. And the recent plate registration and the lack of front plate requirement in PA.

There's a clear 3 week gap where they all of the sudden have enough probably cause to get cell tower data. So we have to assume that Kohlberger fell on their radar via that call and things escalated from there. Is there a chance that familial DNA was returned in that 3 week gap and really escalated things? I'm thinking there's a strong possibility.

went back and double checked on how LE associated the white car with BK-
“On Nov. 25, 2022, Moscow PD asked area LE agencies to be on the lookout for a white Hyundai Elantra. On Nov. 29, 2022, a Washington State University police officer Daniel Tiengo, queried white Elantras registered at WSU. As a result of the query, he located a 2015 white Elantra with a PA lic. Plate , registered to BK”
Exhibit A statement from officer Dustin Blaker

 

[Nila Aella]

This is my understanding as well. It's a service just like GEDMatch, in my opinion. It helped them in the early phase of the investigation, but the genetic genealogy is now moot.

It's very helpful to those who work in LE to know how this went down, but this aspect is not relevant to the future trial of Kohberger, IMO.



Yes - I do believe the reporter doesn't understand the situation. I do believe there's quite a bit of spin here - it does work to get people to discuss.

If the lab in Idaho "couldn't find anything" then how did they send something to a lab in another state? They didn't send an empty envelope, that's for sure. That sheath was in Idaho, the testing of the DNA was done there, and then they sent the result to Othram. If there had been "nothing" on the sheath, then all the other steps could not take place. Full stop.

IME and IMO.

They also do evidence processing and extraction, not just matching in their database.

From Othram website:

Evidence processing, from DNA extraction and enrichment & repair, to DNA testing and analysis is performed in-house

Othram - A Revolution in Cold Case Resolution

Othram is revolutionizing how forensic cases are solved, justice is served, and families are mended.

othram.com

 

[Bogbacal2]

Does anyone have any info on where KG and MM lived prior to renting house on Kings Road? I‘ve looked and don’t see anything.

 

[10ofRods]

Does anyone have any info on where KG and MM lived prior to renting house on Kings Road? I‘ve looked and don’t see anything.

Kaylee lived at Alpha Phi for her sophomore and junior years (freshman year in dorms, until rushing a sorority).

Maddie was Pi Beta Phi and lived there for her sophomore and junior years (dorm in freshman year).

Night of University of Idaho murders described as 'eerily normal'

The sorority sister of two of the victims of the quadruple University of Idaho murder says their final hours appeared to be 'eerily normal and spent with friends.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

The girls moved off campus for their senior year and there have been debates in the press about whether they ceased being sorority members. My take on it is that they remained lifelong members, as young women usually do, but did what many seniors do and move off campus. I believe the roommates that were there before them were also members of Pi Beta Phi, as I recall reading an article about the 1122 King Road house being occupied by people Maddie and Xana both knew from their sorority (previous years' senior girls).

IIRC. IMO. The pictures in the above article show Maddie in the Pi Beta Phi house. Here are some pictures of KG at the sorority house:

IDAHO ALPHA PHI on Instagram: "On November 13th our lives were changed. Kaylee Goncalves, as described by her sisters in Alpha Phi, was the most devoted, spontaneous, adventurous, and considerate sister. She was also a fun loving prankster who never

www.instagram.com

There's a longer article about where they lived and their decisions to rush different sororities somewhere.

IMO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Does anyone have any info on where KG and MM lived prior to renting house on Kings Road? I‘ve looked and don’t see anything.

If you go to Kaylee's Instagram to when she first went to college (fall of 2019), it looks like she's moving into the sorority house, though it could also be a dorm. I think at some point, both she and MM lived in their respective sorority houses. MOO.

By the way, if you look way back on Kaylee's Instagram from when she was in HS, you'll see a photo of her and MM on a balcony at WSU (or WSU is tagged as the location) with the caption "do you go here?" (which used to be a meme). I'm guessing they were touring colleges.

 

[wary]

This company maybe very well established and highly advanced and cutting edge. But that cutting edge aspect is exactly what can work against the prosecution here. I don't know how the DNA sample was tested/analyzed here, and have just read the brief article.
There has been a bit of push back against expert testimony lately in cases and requiring that courts do a better job at their gate keeping function and requiring expert testimony actually meet the standards. This method used by the company will have to be peer reviewed and well scrutinized and generally accepted before the Court will allow it to be admitted at trial. I anticipate a battle here.

Well, Othram has been identifying John/Jane Does at a dizzying rate. Of course, it’s easier to be certain of those than it is to identify a murderer.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Thanks for that information. That's what happens when we (er, I!) assume. I though I saw that she was listed as a freshman and assumed that she graduated from HS in 2022,

As for the curious events, I completely agree and I will be very interested to see if there is a case within the case so-to-speak.

I thought it was Ethan as a freshman, Xana a junior.

Idaho murder victims: Who were Ethan Chapin, Xana Kernodle, Kaylee Goncalves, Madison Mogen

The college town of Moscow, Idaho is still reeling from the loss of University of Idaho students Ethan Chapin, Xana Kernodle, Kaylee Goncalves and Madison Mogen.

www.q13fox.com

Either way, it's by credits (aka hours), not by length of time in school. I refer you to Bluto Blutarsky, "Seven years of college down the drain." (<<not snark, but fun... animal house quote that I paraphrase a lot in my life )

 

[10ofRods]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed & off topic> I think there was a lot of other DNA at the crime scene. First and foremost, the four victims (none of whom had DNA that was found on the use point/snap of the sheath according to the PCA).

Then, the other two roommates.

Then other people who came for parties. All of this had to be sorted. I bet if we had their Excel spreadsheet, we'd be blown away by how many different pieces of DNA were found.

But only one person's DNA was found on the sheath. Will they find BK's DNA elsewhere? Maybe not - he was likely double-gloved, wearing a new coverall, new shoes, etc. What they did find was shoe prints with victim blood on the bottom.

I am not sure why people think he had to have cut himself in the commission of this crime or that all knife murders leave perpetrator DNA at the site (I think it's about 50/50).

More of his DNA might be found if he wasn't wearing a hat. We know he was wearing a mask (so exhalation DNA, hard as it is to find) would be absent.

It is uncommon. That's what BK was going for: the "perfect crime" that evades forensic DNA analysis. He forgot about the digital forensics, apparently. And neighbors' cameras.

IMO.