Found Deceased UK - Nicola Bulley Last Seen Walking Dog Near River - St Michaels on Wyre (Lancashire), Jan 2023 #18

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nao said:
Moo...i guess an accidental stumble for Nicola and she went under quick. As far as Willow the dog...unless she has been swimming with her owner previously...it will just be a confusing situation...owner there then owner gone. Willow is a dog, no way is she suddenly going to think i must jump to the rescue....moo
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Also I don't think we know at which point she entered the water. She may have run along the shoreline for a span. Especially if it looked like her dog was in any distress (I am speculating that her dog was in the water maybe retrieving sticks but got pulled downstream and she dropped everything near the bench and took after him, on land before entering deeper, cold water and the dog was able to exit and she was not.)

Leaving her zoom meeting mid-call suggests to me she was responding to an emergent situation --

Jmo
 
Megnut said:
Also I don't think we know at which point she entered the water. She may have run along the shoreline for a span. Especially if it looked like her dog was in any distress (I am speculating that her dog was in the water maybe retrieving sticks but got pulled downstream and she dropped everything near the bench and took after him, on land before entering deeper, cold water and the dog was able to exit and she was not.)

Leaving her zoom meeting mid-call suggests to me she was responding to an emergent situation --

Jmo
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One of the few certainties about this case is Willow was bone dry. I don't know about springer spaniels, but NY golden retriever went in the water about 10.00 yesterday morning and was still damp when I got home about 3.00.For me, whatever the explanation for this sad case is, is it has to explain how Willow stayed dry whilst its mum was drowning in water. None of us know the answer to this and I doubt we ever will
 
WAWAW said:
Thanks for the points. A couple of observations/questions in response. I've seen a video in which there are steps down to the water at the bench, I also have seen images where it is less steep so my gut feeling is Willow would have found a way to get in to help her mum. Again the images I've seen show 2 feet depth at the initial point but getting significantly deeper a few feet in. If an accident presumably concussion or the temperature caused the drowning, but wouldn't that be at the initial point as surely she'd have got out if not. If she has died in the bench area then surely the divers find her that day as the body sinks to the bottom, even if not then the experts I've seen seem to think a body can't get over the weir.
I'm not sure we'll ever know the truth, but tome if it was an accident at the bench then it has taken an awful lot of extremely unlikely events for it to have happened there
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It sounds like some think that the whole case rests on what a dog would do and that the dog was not wet.

No one can say with any certainty what the dog would or would not have done, there is no walk-in access in that area. The "steps" are at a steep drop-off. It seems that the harness was found halfway between the bench and the river. She may have pitched forward trying to harness the dog, and tumbled down to the river. 1681158406463.png1681158426720.png

The video clearly shows the diver right at the base of the bank in deep water, then she is pulled out at the "steps". Linked photos show her sitting just above the steps and the steps above her head when she is in the water. The "steps" might be useable if dry and hard and a person was not in cold water shock wearing heavy water-soaked clothes and water-filled boots. MOO In the photo of the diver, it doesn't even look like you can reach the steps until you're out up the bank out of the water.

You cannot swim or even move about in cold water shock, you will drown even faster with any physical exertion. Refer to the article about the friend that nearly died attempting to save his friend.

The body not being found where it sank is not unexpected. The body will move underwater, downstream, as it is sinking, and continue to move. Despite claims that the water is still, I see the visible movement of the river in the video. Pls read the linked documentation. The water is moving underneath, whether it can be seen or not. The murkiness and difficulty of finding a body in that river has already been described by the experts.


A strong, healthy young man, dressed for swimming, drowns.
www.chronline.com

Petition Calls for Cold Water Shock Warnings After Teen’s Drowning in the Chehalis River - The Daily Chronicle

Following the death of Zach Hines-Rager, who jumped from a railroad trestle bridge into the Chehalis River last week and reportedly drowned after struggling from cold water shock, people are urging …
www.chronline.com



1681152455362.png1681158535440.png

 
nao said:
Moo...i guess an accidental stumble for Nicola and she went under quick. As far as Willow the dog...unless she has been swimming with her owner previously...it will just be a confusing situation...owner there then owner gone. Willow is a dog, no way is she suddenly going to think i must jump to the rescue....moo
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For this to be the case the following have to happen. 1 Someone who knows the risk of this area accidentally stumbles 2 She either has to land in bricks or is disabled by the temperature to such an extent she can't get out 3 Willow either can't or won't go into the water to help 4 The people finding the phone and Willow either don't check the water when finding these circumstances or can't see anything 13 minutes after the accident 5 The divers who enter the water that day can't locate the body 6 The body at a later point floats to the surface and gets over a weir experts don't think possible before travelling further downstream with nobody seeing it.
I hope for the family you are correct but the probability of all of these happening is extremely low in my opinion.
 
WAWAW said:
don't check the water when finding these circumstances or can't see anything 13 minutes after the acciden
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Exactly, the body sinks within seconds and moves along as it sinks.
WAWAW said:
The body at a later point floats to the surface
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Exactly, decomposition gases bring body to the surface and continues downstream. It may have stopped submerged at the weir and gone over when brought back to the surface. Very common for people to insist that someone had to have seen the body going down the river. Maybe she went into the water at a different location, if it was intentional.

Edit to add, How does one know the risk of taking a tumble down a steep hill, I'm guessing she had never ventured down that bank before, especially not when it was damp or wet. She probably didn't think of it when she was trying to get the dog harnessed.
 
NoSpoonFeeding said:
A strong, healthy young man, dressed for swimming, drowns.
www.chronline.com

Petition Calls for Cold Water Shock Warnings After Teen’s Drowning in the Chehalis River - The Daily Chronicle

Following the death of Zach Hines-Rager, who jumped from a railroad trestle bridge into the Chehalis River last week and reportedly drowned after struggling from cold water shock, people are urging …
www.chronline.com
Click to expand...
Snipped for focus.

Unfortunately accidental drownings happen, even with young, healthy, and experienced swimmers. One of our own passed back in 2007. Joyce Harrison, AKA WS mod Tybee, as a lot of WS old-timers will remember her as, accidentally passed while swimming and she was an experienced swimmer, 47 yrs young. :(

And Tybee was dressing for swimming, Nicola was not. It's very possible it was accidental drowning with Nicola. My other thought is murder. While I could be wrong, suicide is the furthest from my mind with Nicola and isn't even on the table (for me).

 
NoSpoonFeeding said:
It sounds like some think that the whole case rests on what a dog would do and that the dog was not wet.

No one can say with any certainty what the dog would or would not have done, there is no walk-in access in that area. The "steps" are at a steep drop-off. It seems that the harness was found halfway between the bench and the river. She may have pitched forward trying to harness the dog, and tumbled down to the river. View attachment 413919View attachment 413920

The video clearly shows the diver right at the base of the bank in deep water, then she is pulled out at the "steps". Linked photos show her sitting just above the steps and the steps above her head when she is in the water. The "steps" might be useable if dry and hard and a person was not in cold water shock wearing heavy water-soaked clothes and water-filled boots. MOO In the photo of the diver, it doesn't even look like you can reach the steps until you're out up the bank out of the water.

You cannot swim or even move about in cold water shock, you will drown even faster with any physical exertion. Refer to the article about the friend that nearly died attempting to save his friend.

The body not being found where it sank is not unexpected. The body will move underwater, downstream, as it is sinking, and continue to move. Despite claims that the water is still, I see the visible movement of the river in the video. Pls read the linked documentation. The water is moving underneath, whether it can be seen or not. The murkiness and difficulty of finding a body in that river has already been described by the experts.


A strong, healthy young man, dressed for swimming, drowns.
www.chronline.com

Petition Calls for Cold Water Shock Warnings After Teen’s Drowning in the Chehalis River - The Daily Chronicle

Following the death of Zach Hines-Rager, who jumped from a railroad trestle bridge into the Chehalis River last week and reportedly drowned after struggling from cold water shock, people are urging …
www.chronline.com



View attachment 413909View attachment 413921

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For me the relevance of the dog being dry is I honestly believe the coroner will not be able to conclude the cause of the drowning and we'll all be having to reach our own conclusions.
In forming these we can only go on the evidence provided and one of the few things we have is Nicola died and ended up in the water, whilst her dog was dry as confirmed by the police.
Given she was dry we can deduce one of the following 4 explanations.
1 She didn't see her mum enter the water 2 She saw her but couldn't get to her 3 She saw her but choose not to go to her 4 She was restrained at a point and by a person currently unknown.
Going through these, I've spoken to around 7 owners of these types of dog since this story broke and every one of them is adamant that their dog would try to help and this view is supported universally by posters online so I'm ruling out she saw her and choose not to go in.
The second option is she saw her but couldn't get to her, I've not been to the location so can't rule this out. I did see a very good video of the location which had some steps down that weren't great but they look passable. Also, from my own experience of dogs that can't swim is they move along the water until they can find an access point. So on this one I wouldn't rule it out as an explanation but again it seems unlikely a dog couldn't get to her.
3 She didn't see her-I can't think of a scenario other than Willow was chasing something else, given no people or dogs were around this would have to have been thrown by Nicola and my instinct tells me it would need to be a good throw for Willow not to have returned to the locality it was thrown.
4 Dog was restrained-Sadly this could've been by Nicola or someone else, if Nicola she'd have been tied up so I'd like to know if anything has been found indicating this, if by someone else it points to an altercation around the bench.
Hopefully that explains why Willow being dry is relevant to some of us, it doesn't decide anything but it can point us to a most likely explanation of what happened and I'm leaning strongly towards Willow having been restrained either by Nicola or someone else
 
SOMETHINGWILLDO said:
The autopsy must have flagged something up that is inconsistent of accidental drowning. A possibility that there was no water present in the lungs.
I’ve made my feelings clear on this before so I won’t go into it but I’m glad to see they are looking at further possibilities.
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I’m not medically trained in any way but in a case of suspected drowning, I suspect one of the first things a pathologist might do would be to determine the presence or absence of water in the lungs. It would have been done weeks ago. JMO
 
Mo100 said:
Police divers return to the river as instructed by the coroner. |This has been reported in the last hour in various MSM.

www.mirror.co.uk

Police divers searching river where Nicola Bulley found to 'confirm death cause'

Specialist cops were looking in an area less than a mile from where Nicola Bulley was seen in St Michael's on the Wyre, Lancashire - her disappearance captured the nation
www.mirror.co.uk www.mirror.co.uk
Click to expand...
Hmmmm... At least they are looking deeper into it. Suicide has never been on the table for me, nor an accident (OK, so I'll give the latter 1%, and that's being VERY generous). All we know from MSM leading up to the event just screams foul play IMO. And if that's the case I REALLY wish MSM had left all her personal details OUT of the newspapers! They were NOT relevant! Even if it had been suicide they could have said "Nicola had some personal things going on which concern the family and LE that she may have harmed herself". But NOOOOOO... they 'went there'. :(

And yes, I will eat my hat if I am wrong. But really... suicide, accident, or murder all still hurt the same. I suppose just knowing the actual cause may help somewhat. May.

RIP, Nicola. You have not been forgotten and the truth will come out.
 
I daresay the coroner would want to know ,if it was possible to ascertainm at which point Nicola entered the water.
The fact that a diver was seen floating on his back might be him considering if she entered close to the bench area then went over the weir and sunk or entered below the weir .
 
Cuko said:
I’m not medically trained in any way but in a case of suspected drowning, I suspect one of the first things a pathologist might do would be to determine the presence or absence of water in the lungs. It would have been done weeks ago. JMO
Click to expand...
It would have been done on day one. Confirm water in the lungs and confirm it is water from that stretch of river.
 
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