TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 #7

[Brightchaser47]

I can't see how she could cause them any trouble with it, unless we're talking something like Rachel and Renee whitnessing Julie being assaulted, and they're both going straight with screaming that they're going to tell cops and Renee's dad. Only something like that could work as serious threat. Cause two sets of parents (Julie's and Renee's) believing their kids + Rachel being older, confirming their story... Then yeah, that may potentially lead to some jail time. Cause with Julie being so young they may not bend to any sort of threat or blackmail to keep their mouth shut or being tricked into believing that they won't be believed.

With the dancers... if that was true that DA was indeed bringing these dancers there for that reason (sounds bizarre to me, not only with obvious reasons but also with some doubts about logistics that I have), if they were going there willingly, why would they testify? That would likely cause them more trouble than CA. Even if somehow forced to have sex with him or getting literally tricked to get there and assaulted, it would still harm them more than CA.
With that story about Rachel getting inappropriate with CJG CA had leverage over Rachel, huge one, if Renee's dad would confirm it, then any claim from Rachel would be dismissed.

Don't forget that local LE had multiple murdered young women being dropped all around Forth Worth, with Carla Walker's case being HUGE at the time. They got raped and beaten up woman showing up, reporting it, telling them about attempted murder and her rapist bragging about murdering two women recently and dumping them near Benbrook - and saying that she saw him, that she's willing to testify, and try to identify him.
Yet they did nothing about it, they werent interested. If that was the reality then people living it had to be somewhat aware.
So how could both (Rachel and CA) end up confident that sexual assault allegations would matter?

Some good points made there. And you're not the only one questioning logistics at the shop!! Yikes! But, maybe CA felt FA was less likely to catch on, if it was done there ( if she'd care...).  My question is, why would someone who couldn't wait to leave home (abusive dad, etc), bring that into the shop? Brownie points with Dad, or what??

 

[beubeubeu]

At this point, the only reason I can think of for TT to write the letter ( if he wrote it), was to get the Olds back. Buying time for "cleanup" is making less sense to me. If we assume the girls met their deaths that afternoon (regardless of  how they died), the letter wasn't needed. Everyone (well, most everyone) was focused on the mall, and the car in the parking lot, and telephones in houses that night. To my knowledge, absolutely no houses or the transmission shop got searched that night. So, TT wrote the letter to retrieve a car that he would trade for a truck a few months later?

But what would happen with the car if there was no letter?
He legally owned that car, wouldnt it end up returned to him quickly anyway?
If anything, maybe the letter was a way to avoid fingerprinting and looking for some evidence in the car... but he had no reason to fear of discovery of his own fingerprints there.

 

[Brightchaser47]

DP

 

[beubeubeu]

Some good points made there. And you're not the only one questioning logistics at the shop!! Yikes! But, maybe CA felt FA was less likely to catch on, if it was done there ( if she'd care...).  My question is, why would someone who couldn't wait to leave home (abusive dad, etc), bring that into the shop? Brownie points with Dad, or what??

Yea, if anything then consequences from wife (if she was able to cause any) sound more realistic than legal in this scenario.

 My question is, why would someone who couldn't wait to leave home (abusive dad, etc), bring that into the shop? Brownie points with Dad, or what??

More than likely she just didn't.
If she did we don't have any way of confirming any suspicions.
Could be some form of blackmail - "help me to get them here, or I'll hurt your mother/brother", "do that or I'll tell your mother that you're working as a hooker" and many, many more like that - as well as pragmatic "he's cheating anyway, this way I can get few $ out of it... or lack of his abuse when Im visiting".

But IMO this rabbithole is pretty far from the forest.

 

[Brightchaser47]

But what would happen with the car if there was no letter?
He legally owned that car, wouldnt it end up returned to him quickly anyway?
If anything, maybe the letter was a way to avoid fingerprinting and looking for some evidence in the car... but he had no reason to fear of discovery of his own fingerprints there.

I don't know how quickly it would've been returned. Someone feel free to correct me, but I think LE could've kept the car (as evidence). If not, maybe TT was afraid they might...
You're right about fingerprints-- just like with the letter/envelope-- we expect his fingerprints to be there.

 

[Brightchaser47]

DP

 

[FW_Froggy]

It's not hard to come up with some reasons suitable for any scenario, but pretty hard with reason that's "good enough"... at least for me.
With one victim, it could theoretically take one hit, one push, one accidental "something" that wasn't meant to be lethal but ended up killing the person. With three there just had to be some sort of conscious decision to go for it, with confidence that double (or triple, if after some sort of escalation or accident one was just injured) murder is better solution than any alterative option.

Going with most popular "TT did it in the jealous rage".
With accident or manslaughter - what was on the table for him if he called cops or drove her to hospital telling straight how it happened and that he's sorry about it?
Any serious sentence? Lost of his inheritance? Lost of the parental rights?
If not any reason for him to expect any of that to happen?

What kind of family or really any mystery could Rachel potentially reveal to pose such a threat to her father that he could possibly figure that he has no other choice than to murder her and two local kids?
Any indicators that Rachel would be willing to expose something that could her struggling family into more trouble? Why would she do that? Why would her father believe that she could do that?

I can't see how any cheating or family secret related secret could pose such a threat to TT or CA that they'd choose triple murder to prevent it from being revealed.

All these stories about CA and TT being sketchy, creepy, sexual offenders and so on... getting away with it all the time - if anything they're painting a picture of inividuals that would be actually LESS likely to go for such extremes (as murder) out of fear of being caught.
Cause it's not what people do, whats happening is that more their despicable actions are going unpunished, less they fear consequences.

It doesn't make any sense for me UNLESS there were other significant factors that we don't know about, that would change this dynamic completely.

I don't think the A family was the that's what people do kind of Family. Not sure if murder ever makes sense.

 

[beubeubeu]

I don't know how quickly it would've been returned. Someone feel free to correct me, but I think LE could've kept the car (as evidence). If not, maybe TT was afraid they might...
You're right about fingerprints-- just like with the letter/envelope-- we expect his fingerprints to be there.

Well, if he indeed was so concerned about not getting his car back quickly, then - if it was mainly used by Rachel and he was driving with CA... then it kinda adds credibility to the claim that CA was too sick to drive.

Cause if CA was too sick to drive, then no lifts to work for TT, so big need for the car back. Could it possibly appear very recently that CA quit on driving (or said so to FA, cutting him off from using the family car - maybe not so much from the driving itself)?

Oh wait... Whoooa Maybe it was actually DA who knew that CA was too sick to drive.
Rachel was going to school.
FA wasn't going to the workshop with CA on the daily basis.
But DA was working night shifts, home in the morning, if CA was feeling too sick to drive, too proud to admit it at home, so driving short distance to Minot to later give the wheel to TT - that could be a thing only DA could notice.
But nah, TT going to work with CA as a driver wouldn't cause her to call out TTs claim that he got to and back from work with CA.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Well, if he indeed was so concerned about not getting his car back quickly, then - if it was mainly used by Rachel

Somewhere, either on here or a podcast, there was discussion about Rachel being excited and proud that TT gave her the use of the car (wish I could recall where I got that), and how much she liked driving to school.
Also, I've read that there were schoolbooks in the car (along with Shawn's gift from Renee). If that's true, I've always assumed they were Rachel's.

and he was driving with CA... then it kinda adds credibility to the claim that CA was too sick to drive.

I know it's been controversial whether CA was indeed too sick to drive (alleged black-out spells) I wonder if he was under doctor's orders. Like when someone's thought to have had a seizure, they're not supposed to drive, until testing clears them. He could appear the picture of health, and be physically able to do things, and still be "medically" forbidden to drive, IMO. Had he violated that, and gotten caught, he may've lost his license.

Cause if CA was too sick to drive, then no lifts to work for TT, so big need for the car back. Could it possibly appear very recently that CA quit on driving (or said so to FA, cutting him off from using the family car - maybe not so much from the driving itself)?

I'd think FA wouldn't want the risk of CA wrecking their only vehicle...

Oh wait... Whoooa Maybe it was actually DA who knew that CA was too sick to drive.
Rachel was going to school.
FA wasn't going to the workshop with CA on the daily basis.

FA had to take care of RA, get him off to school, etc. He was only 11 yrs old, a little young to be fending for himself.

 

[Brightchaser47]

According to DA's daughter DA is bringing dancers to the shop for CA to have sex with

Does the daughter know that to be fact?

The more I learn and the fact TT passed 3 lie detector tests I'm not so sure TT is as involved as a lot of people think.

I would  love to hear a different theory, but nothing else really makes sense so far.

There are a 100 rabbit holes but it seems like it always comes back to TT and DA somehow.

And that's the problem. No matter what other scenarios are brought up, there's no getting around certain points in this case...

 

[Brightchaser47]

There are a 100 rabbit holes but it seems like it always comes back to TT and DA somehow.

It does, indeed, "always come back to TT and DA", two individuals who  swear they're innocent.
In 2001, Det. Boetcher said LE had "at least 20 new witnesses", but all  that proved was that the girls  were at the mall. No arrests have been made. I'm going to assume that what "mall sightings" might have included TT didn't pan out.
An earlier poster commented "there are five banker boxes of files on this case" and "everything needed to solve this case is in those files, somewhere"(or words to that affect). I agree. How much time do the  current detectives assigned to this case have to actually work on it?

 

[beubeubeu]

It does, indeed, "always come back to TT and DA", two individuals who  swear they're innocent.

How could it possibly not come back to them if they're the most widely discussed individuals?
Most info about people close to the girls available - solid, verifiable info as well as countless hearsays and stories, some of which may be true, and some that are likely not - are about DA and TT.
Hard to ignore any of those cause - considering how many locals and people somewhat close to those close to the girls/families are still heavily involved in discussions - all or some of these informations about DA or TT may point towards their guilt or be indicators that someone really wanted everyone to look at them, to take attention off someone else.

 

[beubeubeu]

I don't think the A family was the that's what people do kind of Family. Not sure if murder ever makes sense.

The alternative is that A family is special and unique in many ways, even if considering only disfunctional families that were proven to be involved in crimes.

 

[Brightchaser47]

or be indicators that someone really wanted everyone to look at them, to take attention off someone else.

I've thought of that. But, after all this time, you would think something or someone would have cleared them, if that were the case.

 

[Pricklykitty]

At this point, the only reason I can think of for TT to write the letter ( if he wrote it), was to get the Olds back. Buying time for "cleanup" is making less sense to me. If we assume the girls met their deaths that afternoon (regardless of  how they died), the letter wasn't needed. Everyone (well, most everyone) was focused on the mall, and the car in the parking lot, and telephones in houses that night. To my knowledge, absolutely no houses or the transmission shop got searched that night. So, TT wrote the letter to retrieve a car that he would trade for a truck a few months later?

The purpose of the letter may have been to try and stop the other families from pushing LE so hard. It always seems like the Wilson family were the ones who were on the ball with regards to RW not returning on time, and then going looking for them, reporting them missing and so on.
In fact I've often wondered how long it would have taken for RT to be reported missing if she had been by herself or with someone else that day.
Anyway, depending on who was involved with the girls going missing, or what the Arnolds and TT might have been thinking happened to those girls initially, they may have wanted to stop LE looking or being involved too closely, and so a letter claiming to be from RT saying they had run away may have been seen as a way of buying time with the families. Listening to Mr Wilson on the interview posted, it seems like it may have had some sway with him as he says that 9 days ago he thought they may have run away, and I have to wonder if the letter had something to do with him thinking that. Even if it just had him clutching at straws, it seems like the letter served the purpose of buying whoever wrote it a week, and who knows what people did within that week.

 

[Pricklykitty]

You make some good points there Pricklykitty, but if it was, for example, CA who was responsible where did the killings take place ? Some people have him at home all day, others have him at the shop all day. Could he be the person 'they knew and trusted' at the Mall ? That scenario just seems a bit unlikely to me.

Others would have to be involved also. CA and TT collaborating in the killing doesn't make any sense to me. What would their joint motive be ?

Thats part of the issue with this case - we don't have verifiable or independent info about who was where, when that day. We don't know if TT was at work, home or elsewhere until late in the day. We don't know if CA was sick or not, home or not. Its these lack of consistent accounts that puts doubt into my mind about what was really going on. Originally I tried to figure out why FA seemed so keen to provide TT with an alibi,but then I realised that in doing so, she was actually also making TT give both her and CA alibis, depending which version she tells.

TT and CA didn't have to have a joint motive to murder, just a joint interest in covering up whatever happened.

 

[Brightchaser47]

The purpose of the letter may have been to try and stop the other families from pushing LE so hard.

If there had been no letter, what would have happened differently? LE already thought the girls ran away. Would houses have been searched to see if belongings were missing? Would parents (and spouses) have been interviewed about domestic situations?

It always seems like the Wilson family were the ones who were on the ball with regards to RW not returning on time, and then going looking for them, reporting them missing and so on.

Of the three families, the Wilsons seem to have been the most stable, and able to pursue the case. Julie's mom was pretty much alone and had a rough time.

In fact I've often wondered how long it would have taken for RT to be reported missing if she had been by herself or with someone else that day.

That's an interesting, albeit disturbing thought.

Anyway, depending on who was involved with the girls going missing, or what the Arnolds and TT might have been thinking happened to those girls initially, they may have wanted to stop LE looking or being involved too closely, and so a letter claiming to be from RT saying they had run away may have been seen as a way of buying time with the families.

I agree, but why was time needed? Rachel's and Renee's families knew each other. Was there concern that Renee's family might catch on to something?

Listening to Mr Wilson on the interview posted, it seems like it may have had some sway with him as he says that 9 days ago he thought they may have run away, and I have to wonder if the letter had something to do with him thinking that.

I've often thought about that, and wondered why he believed Renee would run away, (especially, at that particular time), when we've been given every reason to believe she had reason to be home. According to RA,  DA was in the habit of "running off". Was Renee? Her dad said she was "hardheaded" and "had a temper". Rachel and Renee were close. Had they "run off" before (however briefly), or talked (even jokingly) about doing so?

Even if it just had him clutching at straws, it seems like the letter served the purpose of buying whoever wrote it a week, and who knows what people did within that week.

Again, why is a week so important? None of the scenarios we've discussed on here (except maybe a drug or trafficking related one) require that much time.

 

[T rex]

Again, why is a week so important? None of the scenarios we've discussed on here (except maybe a drug or trafficking related one) require that much time.

There's probably more than one reason for buying time but I've always thought the reason for a week in particular was to give the impression that they would be back in time to go to school. This would make it more believable and maybe relieve some of the qualms the parents would have.

 

[T rex]

Listening to Mr Wilson on the interview posted, it seems like it may have had some sway with him as he says that 9 days ago he thought they may have run away, and I have to wonder if the letter had something to do with him thinking that.

I've often thought about that, and wondered why he believed Renee would run away, (especially, at that particular time), when we've been given every reason to believe she had reason to be home. According to RA,  DA was in the habit of "running off". Was Renee? Her dad said she was "hardheaded" and "had a temper". Rachel and Renee were close. Had they "run off" before (however briefly), or talked (even jokingly) about doing so?

Well they were all standing at a bus stop a week later so what does that tell us?
The letter worked.

 

[jetsfanjohn]

Well they were all standing at a bus stop a week later so what does that tell us?
The letter worked.

I can't help but get the feeling that some of the people at that bus stop knew the girls would not be coming back.