4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, 2022 #78

[Helechawagirl]

While we are shaking our heads, what about that phrase "running through"? (Emphasis added.) The article doesn't say whether the "naked man" was running in or out of the house. How did the writer/editor miss that tiny--but essential--fact?

And how would BF see anyone coming or going through the slider from her first floor window? The only windows on that lower floor face the front, IIRC. Unless the "naked man" ran toward the parking area in front of 1122--but then how would BF have seen him use the slider?

As I recall the floor plan, BF would have had to have been on the staircase from lower to middle floor and near the top of the stairs, at that, if she were able to see anyone using the slider.

This whole article is fiction.

 

[al66pine]

Who Drove? A Shift re Burden of Proof?

.... The car was not self-driving. Ergo, someone drove the car. If Bryan Kohberger got out of that same car in Clarkston the next day around noon, I feel the burden is on the defense to show that he wasn't the usual driver of the car. He was surely the owner of the car. That is relevant....

snipped for focus @10ofRods Yes, identifying the Elantra driver is relevant.

Okay you say you feel, then the burden is on the defense to show that def't did not drive Elantra (not usually or not that night near murder scene). Maybe jury will "feel" this too.

But c'mon 10ofRods, you know, legally the BURDEN OF PROOF DOES NOT SHIFT
from the state to require criminal def atty to provide evd that BK did not drive it.

A def't can be found not guilty without def. atty putting even one person on the stand, without offering a shred of evd.

Only when a crim def't asserts an affirmative defense, such as self-defense, is the def't. required to put on evd. to support the particular defense. Yeah, doubtful self-def or other aff. defense would fly here.

Many of us here are crossing our fingers, hoping certain evd. surfaces to nail the perp who committed these heinous murders. Me included.
As always, enjoying your enlightening posts.

Welcoming clarification or correction, esp'ly from our legal professionals.

 

[al66pine]

Jump Right In, the Water's Fine.

As someone who has been observing this exchange and the confusion, can I please chime in? ....
(admittedly I was confused and didn't want to say anything as you are a doctor and therefore already aware that a vehicle cannot be used to estimate TOD *ETA unless perhaps in a motor vehicle accident just in case someone comes for me later* and I was unsure why you were even speaking on it lol ok I will stfu now)...

snipped for focus @whiterhino
At times each one of us is confused about something in this ID-4 case (and in life).

No need to hesitate to ask for info or clarification. No need to stfu.

Glad you chimed in.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

It's possible. I believe he had to strip off the clothing at some point, but it sounds like when DM saw him, he was still clothed (and heading in the direction of the slider). In that case, he must have paused in the kitchen or the living room to do so, unseen by DM but seen by BF (who up until this issue, had apparently been sleeping downstairs on the first floor).

I believe he needed to stuff his things in a plastic bag or duffel or container before getting in the car, at any rate. If he didn't, there should be some blood traces in the car. OTOH, he did kill 3 of his victims while they were under covers/on a mattress and he didn't slash any necks that we know of (so possibly no arterial blood spurt).

OTOH, maybe he is far more disorganized than I had thought. Maybe he strips on the deck, realizes he forgot the sheath. dashes back in, is seen by BF, runs out without the sheath. Maybe he didn't plan anything to protect his car.

IMO.

I wonder if he just had something as simple as a polythene sheet over his driver's seat? When UK police officer Wayne Couzens abducted and murdered his victim, he had planned the event and sheeted his hire car with polythene.

Maybe BK genuinely didn't see DM in the doorway as he walked past her? Maybe he was in shock or dissociated from the adrenaline and horror of what he'd just done? He could have made his way to the kitchen / slider / deck, stripped off all his clothing and left in a manner that BF (or whomsoever claims he was 'naked') could have sighted him? Personally I'd have thought he'd leave his underwear on?

Also agree, I don't see why he wouldn't have returned to try and retrieve the sheath apart from one issue - he would surely know doing so would result in a far higher level of contamination of the crime scene that he'd seemingly tried to keep meticulously free of any trace? JMO MOO

I guess we can't know until the court case.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I think you are being hasty, Doctor. It's possible both survivors saw the same man, but he dressed or undressed at some point during the attacks to keep blood spatter off his clothing.

What will be odder to me is if it turns out BF saw a naked man entering or leaving the house, yet failed to call 911 (at least for the next 8 hours). WTF?!

Or why didn't she at least wake everyone up to ask if somebody had a guest who arrived or left naked?

I realize some behaviors are overlooked by college kids because everybody is experimenting with something, but I've never heard of a man running outside naked being considered acceptable.

Personally my suspicion is that any member of the household who saw or heard something bizarre and extreme going on would have automatically assumed it was drink or drug related antics. Especially naked man running around or strange crashing and bangings.

We know they wouldn't call the police in that case as they receive warnings from the police about them contacting the uni / their greek houses for underage drinking.

JMO but if I lived in a chaotic open-door policy party house where scores of people were partying literally every week, if some really far out stuff occurred during the night, it would be a long long long time before I came to the conclusion that a deranged knife man had come in and slaughtered my housemates.

This may explain why the call to the correct authorities took so long? They could have thought it was some kind of prank or maybe that issues within the household had got totally out of hand and people had done terrible things to one another. Why would they think a stranger came in and did it all?

That's maybe why they rang friends and associates first, maybe trying to figure out what the heck had gone down, trying to work out who had been over that night and who hadn't. Being mindful that whatever it was meant their student house, their university, their greek life chapters, and future reputations were about to be dragged through the national press. After all, we have read so very many 'hazing gone wrong' or 'party gone wrong' reports over the recent years.

JMO MOO not in anyway trying to blame the surviving victims of this atrocity.

 

[maskedwoman]

So, let me get this straight. The PI wrote an affidavit. Who leaked this affidavit to the Mirror? No one else reported these bizarre bits of information. How does the PI know what BF knew? How is that something he can swear to in an affidavit?

Did he only write an affidavit but not file it? If it was filed, it was under the gag order.

Sounds to me as if perhaps the affidavit-writer may have leaked it? I'm very curious about who might have leaked this alleged affidavit. Further, is the Mirror capable of using the word "affidavit" in the way that it's used, legally, in Idaho? Basic meaning of the term is "sworn statement" (so if I type "I swear under penalty of perjury that everything in this post is true to the best of my knowledge and belief), then I've made this post into an "affidavit."

Since the subpoena was issued, I feel that there had to have been some basis for it (so...I'll assume the PI exists and did file the affidavit - but it ought not to have been leaked to the Mirror and personally, I doubt that it was).

OTOH, I suppose this PI could share his findings with the Mirror on the down-low. Seems really disreputable. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out and what happens with the subpoena. If it's true that there is this affidavit claiming Naked Man Running (based on a PI"s...interview? with whom? with BF herself?), then I believe the Nevada Court will keep the subpoena for BF.

IMO.

On the one hand, I would be floored if a PI working for the public defenders office wouldn't leak details of their own affidavit. It seems like that would provide a direct line to the PD's office violating the gag order and I would expect Anne Taylor to roast the PI for dinner. On the other hand, people can and do make worse (and more stupid) decisions all the time, so who knows?

 

[SpiderFalcon]

On the one hand, I would be floored if a PI working for the public defenders office wouldn't leak details of their own affidavit. It seems like that would provide a direct line to the PD's office violating the gag order and I would expect Anne Taylor to roast the PI for dinner. On the other hand, people can and do make worse (and more stupid) decisions all the time, so who knows?

It was filed in a Nevada court, so not under the gag order.

https://int.nyt.com/data/documentto...ial-witness-warrant/43954cdb14544969/full.pdf

 

[WingsOverTX]

It's possible. I believe he had to strip off the clothing at some point, but it sounds like when DM saw him, he was still clothed (and heading in the direction of the slider). In that case, he must have paused in the kitchen or the living room to do so, unseen by DM but seen by BF (who up until this issue, had apparently been sleeping downstairs on the first floor).

I believe he needed to stuff his things in a plastic bag or duffel or container before getting in the car, at any rate. If he didn't, there should be some blood traces in the car. OTOH, he did kill 3 of his victims while they were under covers/on a mattress and he didn't slash any necks that we know of (so possibly no arterial blood spurt).

OTOH, maybe he is far more disorganized than I had thought. Maybe he strips on the deck, realizes he forgot the sheath. dashes back in, is seen by BF, runs out without the sheath. Maybe he didn't plan anything to protect his car.

IMO.

How does BF see Bryan leaving thru the slider but not see victims Xana or Ethan (or their blood)?

If she does see any of these three people right after commission of the crimes, why does she not call LE?

The minute we accept that BF left her room on the 1st floor during the limited timeframe of the murders, we are left with no scenario that fits the KNOWN ELEMENTS in the PCA.

These discussions raise a lot of doubts because of the assumption that neither survivor had CAUSE to know about any of the 4 crimes & not act on that knowledge immediately.

Moving these two victims into the realm of contemporaneous knowledge of any of the 4 murders shakes this case to its core.

What did happen that night?

JMO

 

[WingsOverTX]

Personally my suspicion is that any member of the household who saw or heard something bizarre and extreme going on would have automatically assumed it was drink or drug related antics. Especially naked man running around or strange crashing and bangings.

We know they wouldn't call the police in that case as they receive warnings from the police about them contacting the uni / their greek houses for underage drinking.

JMO but if I lived in a chaotic open-door policy party house where scores of people were partying literally every week, if some really far out stuff occurred during the night, it would be a long long long time before I came to the conclusion that a deranged knife man had come in and slaughtered my housemates.

This may explain why the call to the correct authorities took so long? They could have thought it was some kind of prank or maybe that issues within the household had got totally out of hand and people had done terrible things to one another. Why would they think a stranger came in and did it all?

That's maybe why they rang friends and associates first, maybe trying to figure out what the heck had gone down, trying to work out who had been over that night and who hadn't. Being mindful that whatever it was meant their student house, their university, their greek life chapters, and future reputations were about to be dragged through the national press. After all, we have read so very many 'hazing gone wrong' or 'party gone wrong' reports over the recent years.

JMO MOO not in anyway trying to blame the surviving victims of this atrocity.

Nope. I don't see that as plausible.

If what you conjecture is true, this is looking like a coverup, not a "I'm too afraid to call LE" scenario. But by whom & why?

I can accept ignorance of what has happened or is happening as an excuse for lack of a timely 911 dial but not knowledge of it.

JMHO

 

[WingsOverTX]

On the one hand, I would be floored if a PI working for the public defenders office wouldn't leak details of their own affidavit. It seems like that would provide a direct line to the PD's office violating the gag order and I would expect Anne Taylor to roast the PI for dinner. On the other hand, people can and do make worse (and more stupid) decisions all the time, so who knows?

Huh? Please pardon me, but I'm not following.

 

[Justice101]

Sorry, but when is the preliminary hearing scheduled?

 

[SpiderFalcon]

Sorry, but when is the preliminary hearing scheduled?

I think it's June 26

 

[Nila Aella]

Just something I noticed when scanning. Warbonnet Dr. is not far from King Road (7 min)

MPD Press Log 04/18/2023​

23-M02968 Suspicious Person/Circumstance

Incident Address : WARBONNET DR; APPLEBEES

MOSCOW ID 83843

Disposition : CLO

Time Reported: 11:50

Cad Comments:

RP works for a lawn company and was mowing the lawn and found a knife in

the grass. Officer responded.

MPD Press Log 04/18/2023

www.ci.moscow.id.us

MOO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

As someone who has been observing this exchange and the confusion, can I please chime in?

I'm not sure who (if anyone) was actually suggesting using the Elantra as some way of proving or estimating the time of the murders.

Personally I misunderstood and thought @BeginnerSleuther was saying "you can't do both" (using the car to establish two things). Quoting: "And I'm saying, if the police want to prove BK is guilty of murder because his car was at the scene of the crime, they can't use the car to determine the time of the murders. That's circular logic and confirmation bias, IMO.".

Snipped by me for focus.

The comment you quoted from me was in response to this from a different poster (BBM): "The police have the time stamped cctv of the Elantra driving off at high speed and the neighbours doorbell footage of the loud thud, so they’re pretty confident of the actual time the murders occurred."

The PCA makes it clear that the white Elantra was at the scene and therefore, the driver was at the scene of the murder. So, in that case, since they're using the Elantra to place the suspect at the scene of the murder, they need time of the murder based on other evidence (such as autopsies, which is what they're doing, IMO). We can all speculate, but I was talking about in court, legally. That's how it all started and as forums are prone to do, led in other directions.

But that aside, @whiterhino you should feel free to question or correct me. I've been wrong about a lot in this case. There are some things I feel strongly about and likely won't change my mind without evidence, but I accept that it could turn out that I'm 100% wrong about everything I've said about this case.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I think you are being hasty, Doctor. It's possible both survivors saw the same man, but he dressed or undressed at some point during the attacks to keep blood spatter off his clothing.

What will be odder to me is if it turns out BF saw a naked man entering or leaving the house, yet failed to call 911 (at least for the next 8 hours). WTF?!

Or why didn't she at least wake everyone up to ask if somebody had a guest who arrived or left naked?

I realize some behaviors are overlooked by college kids because everybody is experimenting with something, but I've never heard of a man running outside naked being considered acceptable.

I can't see him changing inside the home. If he changed, it was outside, IMO. The timeline is already tight. But also, DM sees him, he starts heading toward the slider and she retreats into her room. Then BF sees him and he's suddenly naked? So between walking from DM's room to the slider, he strips. She sees none of it and BF sees him naked seconds later.

I also am assuming he didn't get blood or bloody footprints anywhere (that we know of since they used the latent print to determine direction of travel in the PCA). I just have a hard time seeing it.

Add in that if we believe the article, the defense feels this is somehow exculpatory. Why would they feel this is exculpatory if they know BK stripped on his way out? If anything, if he really did strip, this information would HURT him, not help him.

As to why BF wouldn't call 911 if someone ran out naked, for all we know, she was also in frozen in shock/fear and retreated to her room, like DM. We just don't know, just like we didn't with DM, and likely won't until her testimony is made public.

It's more believable to me that either the Mirror is wrong or there was someone else there that night.

MOO.

 

[mmeynstyn]

He could have stripped off all his blooded clothing before leaving?

IF (and a big IF) the Mirror article has some truth, I was thinking the same thing. Just wondering/speculating, could the layout of the house play a role? Would the stairs to/from 3rd floor block DM's view of the sliding door in the kitchen? If yes, it seems DM could have seen the suspect heading for the kitchen/sliding door dressed in black. BF comes up the stairs 30 seconds to a minute later to see the suspect naked at the sliding door. I cannot make any sense that she also came "face-to-face" with the suspect. JMO, that sounds like a blending with the DM witness statement, as someone else mentioned earlier in the thread.

IMO, JMO, I always thought the Mirror was UKs version of the National Inquirer. So, I've never thought of it as news. Even though I speculate about how both DM and BF's witness statements could be true, I still am questioning the truthfulness of the MIrror.

 

[Wallendo]

Sometimes in this case it feels like everything I know is wrong.
We have multiple facts released by LE, and others from MSM. But it is hard to fit all these pieces into a concise narrative.
We have an arrested suspect who seems to be a strange guy, but no history to suggest he would murder multiple people. He apparently had been in the vicinity of the house before, but no locations actually pinpointed. He drove a strange route the night of the murders and there was radio silence at the presumed time of the crime (no geolocation). A car matching the description of his car is near the house at the time of the crime. And DNA was found on a knife sheath (we assume it matched BK, but those results haven't been released).

But what happened in the house makes no sense. We have documentation of a "thud", someone interacting with a dog, a few random overheard phrases, and two witnesses who may have seen the killer but were unaware a home invasion was ongoing and murders had been committed. And a doordash driver made a delivery immediately before the murders. We know XK was awake. Most of us have assumed that the two women on the top floor were asleep, but we also know they were texting shortly before the attack, and there is no actual evidence they were sleeping.

It will likely all make sense when all the evidence is presented. LE obviously should have asked the two survivors why they didn't call 911. The doordash driver would have described what he saw on his arrival. The exact locations of the bodies and autopsy findings will be revealed. We will know what, if any, evidence was recovered from the vehicle.

IMHO certain residents of this house were targeted and had somehow interacted with the killer in the past. It also seems as if there was some interaction between the killer and at least some of his victims and possibly the witnesses. I don't suspect the survivors being involved.

 

[maskedwoman]

Huh? Please pardon me, but I'm not following.

Never mind me. I realized it was filed in Nevada, which made it public, but I was too late to delete my stupidity. LOL

 

[Auntie Cipation]

I think the most likely explanation is that the Mirror confused BF and DM, and sloppy writing morphed "heading toward the slider" into "leaving through the slider."

But if it turns out they did not mix up the two girls and meant to refer to BF, I still think sloppy writing was involved.

First, have we heard anything suggesting BF went upstairs during that time? I would have assumed the article meant she looked out her bedroom window and saw a man come around the side of the house and either she or the writer made the assumption that the person had just exited the house via the kitchen slider.

And if all that turns out to be true, then it suggests that BK stripped down as he exited the house -- somewhere between the kitchen and the front of the house. But he didn't (that we know of) dump his clothing right there outside the house, so the immediate question arises -- if she actually saw a naked person, were they carrying a bundle that looked like clothing/backpack etc?

MOO

 

[wary]

Never mind me. I realized it was filed in Nevada, which made it public, but I was too late to delete my stupidity. LOL

Actually, I think the problem was that your first sentence said ‘wouldn’t’ when it should have said ‘would.’

As it stands, your first sentence contradicts the rest of your post. No big deal!

MOO