Found Deceased OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #5 *Arrests*

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Artis said:
He was named in a legal document, used to arrest everyone else named, so it's not like this is some random gossip.
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There were definitely other people named in the four affidavits.

Artis said:
This group, "God Misfits" and Grice, who filed 40 pages with a court,<modsnip> are exactly the type of groups the FBI infiltrates with informants. There is every reason to believe that's why Grice is being erased and protected, until I see otherwise.
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Multiple times you have tried to draw a parallel to OKC Bombing and McVeigh’s co-conspirator, so I’ll do the same here. The FBI is intent on disappearing their sooper secret informant in this case from the record, but his name is not redacted? Where is the erasure and protection exactly?
 
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Cool Cats said:
I'm trying to figure out the vehicle discussion.

I do not understand why anyone would think the 4 stooges would try to upload the victims' car onto a flatbed truck then drive it away?

Didn't they just simply leave the car? Obviously there is no need to tow a working car.
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Four stooges is about it. The reason moving or hiding the vehicle has been discussed is because TA and the children were not waiting for VB at Four Corners at 10am as TA claimed VB had cancelled picking up the children. If it was intended for VB’s vehicle to be discovered only a short distance away it’s proof VB never cancelled and TA is not only lying, but covering up her personal involvement in the disappearance with that lie. Only if the vehicle was not found at all or not found anywhere nearby would it possibly seem that indeed VB had cancelled. However TA wouldn’t have known both VB and JK’s family were aware the plans to pick up the children were firmly in place so her lie was all for naught, instead I’d guess it served at a bright red flag above her head right from the beginning.

Adams told officers she had called Butler to check if she was coming for the usual Saturday visit. She said Butler told her that something had come up and she could not make it.

Phone records confirmed the call had been made at 9 a.m. but also showed that at that time Butler was already in Hugoton to pick up Kelley, a pastor’s wife, who had agreed to supervise Butler with her children.
 
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whinewiththegravy said:
There were definitely other people named in the four affidavits.



Multiple times you have tried to draw a parallel to OKC Bombing and McVeigh’s co-conspirator, so I’ll do the same here. The FBI is intent on disappearing their sooper secret informant in this case from the record, but his name is not redacted? Where is the erasure and protection exactly?
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Have you seen or heard any public statements saying he was not there? All I've seen is that he was interviewed by the OSBI and FBI (why the FBI?) and let go. Why does the arrest affidavit with CW's statement have any credibility?
 
Artis said:
Have you seen or heard any public statements saying he was not there? All I've seen is that he was interviewed by the OSBI and FBI (why the FBI?) and let go. Why does the arrest affidavit with CW's statement have any credibility?
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I don’t believe I’ve offered any opinion on the credibility of the affidavits. What they state, however, is that Twombley, Adams, and Callum money, possessions, vehicles, and property (including property they have access to owned by others) can be linked to the murder and dump scenes on the relevant times and dates. As to my actual opinion, here goes: if it’s a bit more complicated to directly link Grice to these crimes, I expect LE to take as long as they need to dot and cross the pertinent characters <modsnip - snarky>
 
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Artis said:
Probably nothing will be done about it, as usual. What should be done is a clear and precise explanation, given at a presser, with questions from reporters, about why he was named (not once, but twice; previous attempt in Kansas and the actual murders). If that information was inaccurate, then it should be publicly stated, at the presser and the man completely cleared. He was named in a legal document, used to arrest everyone else named, so it's not like this is some random gossip. It's on the record. It would take an investigative reporter to keep hammering on it or angry family members, though that's happened in the past, in even worse crimes, and this kind of stuff still barely saw the light of day. I completely disagree that LE doesn't need to report to the public. Who pays their salaries and for the investigations? They are public servants and accountable to the people, not the other way around. This is a double murder and the public is entitled to ALL of the information. This group, "God Misfits" and Grice, who filed 40 pages with a court, renouncing his citizenship, are exactly the type of groups the FBI infiltrates with informants. There is every reason to believe that's why Grice is being erased and protected, until I see otherwise.
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Can you point me to any link at all that states law enforcement is obligated to give the general public ALL of the information pertaining to a criminal case? I would argue that we do not have a right to any information they may have, unless withholding that information puts our safety at risk. Trials are carried out in courtrooms, not the internet. Want to know and right to know are seldom the same. Also, unless and until PG, or anyone else is charged with a crime, they have a right to privacy that far exceeds Joe Public's right to know why his name is on a piece of paper. This is also why we are not allowed to sleuth people who have not been named suspects or persons of interest. JMO
 
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Artis said:
<snipped to reply> He was named in a legal document, used to arrest everyone else named, so it's not like this is some random gossip. It's on the record. It would take an investigative reporter to keep hammering on it or angry family members, though that's happened in the past, in even worse crimes, and this kind of stuff still barely saw the light of day. I completely disagree that LE doesn't need to report to the public. Who pays their salaries and for the investigations? They are public servants and accountable to the people, not the other way around.
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Yes LE is responsible for conducting investigations but as far as I understand it, the purpose of an investigation is to provide evidence required to convict during the legal process, not to gain approval from the public. If that were all about public opinion, there would be no point in criminal trials. The purpose of the AA (arrest affidavit) is to allege probable cause so that a Judge will authorize an arrest of an accused (in this case four) and as quickly as possible to keep other people safe. But while a AA indeed is a legal document, the information in it isn’t factual until proven beyond a reasonable doubt during trial, unless the accused all plead guilty.

That a 16 year old said her mother verbally told her a 5th person participated in a double homicide took place definitely should not be grounds for an arrest. Especially if his whereabouts was accounted for during that same time, instead that’s likely grounds for a wrongful arrest. I see no reason LE would be setting out to botch this case. JMO
 
Artis said:
Have you seen or heard any public statements saying he was not there? All I've seen is that he was interviewed by the OSBI and FBI (why the FBI?) and let go. Why does the arrest affidavit with CW's statement have any credibility?
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CWs statement was certainly not the only evidence presented in the AA, which gives probable cause to suspect the four who were indeed arrested.
 
SteveP said:
Can you point me to any link at all that states law enforcement is obligated to give the general public ALL of the information pertaining to a criminal case? I would argue that we do not have a right to any information they may have, unless withholding that information puts our safety at risk. Trials are carried out in courtrooms, not the internet. Want to know and right to know are seldom the same. Also, unless and until PG, or anyone else is charged with a crime, they have a right to privacy that far exceeds Joe Public's right to know why his name is on a piece of paper. This is also why we are not allowed to sleuth people who have not been named suspects or persons of interest. JMO
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We obviously don't agree and on the role and responsibilities of public servants. That's okay. I'm only commenting, from my perspective, on the information put online by the state and locals. I'll just say that this a double murder and this fifth person, allegedly at the scene of the crime, whose name the authorities saw fit make public, is of legitimate interest. That's it. YMMV.
 
Artis said:
We obviously don't agree and on the role and responsibilities of public servants. That's okay. I'm only commenting, from my perspective, on the information put online by the state and locals. I'll just say that this a double murder and this fifth person, allegedly at the scene of the crime, whose name the authorities saw fit make public, is of legitimate interest. That's it. YMMV.
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If there's any truth to the theory that the 5th person named by CW is an informant or somehow working for LE or whatever, it's certainly possible that "your affiant" (as named in the AA, i.e. the officer who took this statement by CW) was completely unaware of PG's (hypothetical) informant role, and all the officer was doing was recording CW's statement for the record, as she told it to him.
It's even possible the officer didn't even know this 5th named person whatsoever! Maybe he'd never even heard the name til CW said it. He just included it in the AA, along w/whatever other relevant info CW provided. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't know him, because I'm sure I read somewhere in an earlier thread that PG is from Wagoner, OK, maybe even lives there now, and Wagoner is hundreds of miles from where all this happened! (I live in Wagoner County; it's near Tulsa.)

(I saw this mention of PG and Wagoner early on, before we were told he wasn't a POI and not to sleuth him, so no idea if it's accurate or current info or not, since I purposefully haven't researched him.)

Of course, since this is such a small town, the officer easily may have known PG or known OF him, but still may have been unaware of his (hypothetical) informant status. I think that's supposed to be a secret, right? Need to know basis only! Probably not every cop knows every informant, *especially* if the informant is working for/with an agency that is not the one the officer works for.

Anyway, that's just one way I thought of to explain that name being included in the AA, for all to see, but then not having been charged. I've no idea of the real reason, may have nothing to do w/being an informant at all, I just thought all the speculation excessive and wanted to share this one possibility that it seems people haven't thought about. Sure to be some valid explanation, we're just not privy to it.
 
Artis said:
We obviously don't agree and on the role and responsibilities of public servants. That's okay. I'm only commenting, from my perspective, on the information put online by the state and locals. I'll just say that this a double murder and this fifth person, allegedly at the scene of the crime, whose name the authorities saw fit make public, is of legitimate interest. That's it. YMMV.
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I was very surprised daughter’s identity wasn’t redacted, especially being a minor.
No idea if it’s typical or SOP to conceal such info, but I’m really curious why it wasn’t done here. The threats and concern for safety of others was clearly stated in those docs, and knowing what we know about this group… it’s a bit unnerving.
 
I think many of us may be thinking the God's Misfits group might be a fairly sizeable group, but I would not be surprised if we eventually learn that about half of the group is sitting in jail right now. There may be other "fringe" members or like-minded people who may have attended a prayer in the park, but have never gone "all in", but I really think there is a good likelihood that the "leadership", if you will, of the group, may well consist of the four currently locked up and maybe two or three other families, at most, friends of those locked up, whose names we may have heard of here or there, and they may be bailing as quickly as they can. These murders may prove to be the death knell for the God's MIsfits, and if it is, at least something good may come from these senseless, horrible murders. JMO
 
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sunspun said:
If there's any truth to the theory that the 5th person named by CW is an informant or somehow working for LE or whatever, it's certainly possible that "your affiant" (as named in the AA, i.e. the officer who took this statement by CW) was completely unaware of PG's (hypothetical) informant role, and all the officer was doing was recording CW's statement for the record, as she told it to him.
It's even possible the officer didn't even know this 5th named person whatsoever! Maybe he'd never even heard the name til CW said it. He just included it in the AA, along w/whatever other relevant info CW provided. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't know him, because I'm sure I read somewhere in an earlier thread that PG is from Wagoner, OK, maybe even lives there now, and Wagoner is hundreds of miles from where all this happened! (I live in Wagoner County; it's near Tulsa.)

(I saw this mention of PG and Wagoner early on, before we were told he wasn't a POI and not to sleuth him, so no idea if it's accurate or current info or not, since I purposefully haven't researched him.)

Of course, since this is such a small town, the officer easily may have known PG or known OF him, but still may have been unaware of his (hypothetical) informant status. I think that's supposed to be a secret, right? Need to know basis only! Probably not every cop knows every informant, *especially* if the informant is working for/with an agency that is not the one the officer works for.

Anyway, that's just one way I thought of to explain that name being included in the AA, for all to see, but then not having been charged. I've no idea of the real reason, may have nothing to do w/being an informant at all, I just thought all the speculation excessive and wanted to share this one possibility that it seems people haven't thought about. Sure to be some valid explanation, we're just not privy to it.
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Oh, yes, I completely agree. There's no reason the officer who filed the paperwork would know anything about any of these people. Even if he does know any of them, it's not relevant and CW's statement is her own and nothing to do with him.
 
Universecalling said:
I was very surprised daughter’s identity wasn’t redacted, especially being a minor.
No idea if it’s typical or SOP to conceal such info, but I’m really curious why it wasn’t done here. The threats and concern for safety of others was clearly stated in those docs, and knowing what we know about this group… it’s a bit unnerving.
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Fortunately four who may pose a danger to her are locked up and never getting out. Are there are more? Dunno and don't know how many are in that group (probably not many). I wonder if she came forward on her own or was just tracked down by LE and felt she had to tell the truth when asked to. It seems she didn't alert anyone about the February attempt/plot to kill Veronica. Maybe scared, maybe thinks this is all normal and the way people handle things. Who knows? You can be sure that everyone in that area knows who she is. Hopefully, good people will make themselves a source of support because she needs it.
 
Artis said:
Fortunately four who may pose a danger to her are locked up and never getting out. Are there are more? Dunno and don't know how many are in that group (probably not many). I wonder if she came forward on her own or was just tracked down by LE and felt she had to tell the truth when asked to. It seems she didn't alert anyone about the February attempt/plot to kill Veronica. Maybe scared, maybe thinks this is all normal and the way people handle things. Who knows? You can be sure that everyone in that area knows who she is. Hopefully, good people will make themselves a source of support because she needs it.
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Agreed.
Hopefully they get shunned by everyone and the span of TA’s (and the rest) influence is no more. Old money, all her connections from high level positions she held, and some traditional values many in that area share (plus SM conspiracies algorithms), I’m sure not 100% of the public are in victims’ corners.

If someone told me in 5 years that TA is a top dog, or one of the top dogs in prison, I would not be surprised one bit.
 
Universecalling said:
Agreed.
Hopefully they get shunned by everyone and the span of TA’s (and the rest) influence is no more. Old money, all her connections from high level positions she held, and some traditional values many in that area share (plus SM conspiracies algorithms), I’m sure not 100% of the public are in victims’ corners.

If someone told me in 5 years that TA is a top dog, or one of the top dogs in prison, I would not be surprised one bit.
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I have thought exactly the same thing. It has also occurred to me that it may depend on who the competition is. I think she'll hit some resistance from whoever is currently queen bee. TA may be dead in 5 years.
 
I just can't get over the level of stupidity in this case. We live in a day and age where computers/phones/cctv footage tell us everything.
So...........
TA did an online search for:
* how to get someone out of their house * taser pain level
* gun shops
* prepaid cell phones

She then bought three prepaid, unregistered burner phones.
Then bought five stun guns at a local gun shop.
 
SteveP said:
I think many of us may be thinking the God's Misfits group might be a fairly sizeable group, but I would not be surprised if we eventually learn that about half of the group is sitting in jail right now. There may be other "fringe" members or like-minded people who may have attended a prayer in the park, but have never gone "all in", but I really think there is a good likelihood that the "leadership", if you will, of the group, may well consist of the four currently locked up and maybe two or three other families, at most, friends of those locked up, whose names we may have heard of here or there. These murders may prove to be the death knell for the God's MIsfits, and if it is, at least something good may come from these senseless, horrible murders. JMO
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My impression of that place is that it's very sparsely populated and so I imagined the group would be small but, of course, don't know. I have no clue what their beliefs are, either, other than PG's as reported by News Nation. Were those the same beliefs as the Misfits? If that turns out to be so, none of it indicated anything about violence (unlike, for instance, Antifa or other anarchists). It was mostly bible thumper, individualist, what I see as (could be wrong) kind of out west, rancher/redneck view of life, like don't bother me and I won't bother you kind of thing, MYOB, 1890s sort of world view. Obviously, there are light years between that kind of thinking and being psycho killers. Point being, if there are many more members and that's the kind of thing they believe in, I wouldn't think they'd approve of murder.
 
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