WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #2

[Old Dominion]

The airplane was flying the V23 corridor. Was this directed by Cooper or was this done because they had to choose a low altitude route and it just happened to be V23?

Cooper did not specify a route. They actually swayed off course of V23.

The note Cooper gave to the flight attendant only mentioned a hijacking and a bomb, correct? For his demands, he gave these to the flight attendant verbally and she wrote them on a piece of paper. Do I have this correct?

Does the FBI have his intial note?

He did give the initial notice on paper, but gave the demands to the Flo verbally. He asked for the handwritten note back, so the FBI does not have it.

I know leftcoast kept asking people if they thought Mayfield had enough time to do the hijacking and make the phone call. Well, if Mayfield did do the hijacking then the phone call was brilliant.

Here is my guess. Making the phone call was plan A. Making no phone call was plan B. He probably figured there was a window of time where he could make the phone call for it to be effective. If he didn't make that window then he simply wouldn't make the call. Plan B wouldn't be as good as A but it wouldn't do any harm.

Very possible. However since the plane might have been off course of V23 which Cooper assumed via the planned stop in Vegas, after the fact plan "B" looks much more plausible, but no one really knows. Many times through email I discussed with LC the possibility that a surrogate made the call for Teddy-boy while he made his way back to civilization, or a similar type plan.
Anything is possible, and the fact that that call was made at all is really troubling.
OD

 

[Littledeer]

Welcome back OD!

Hope you can stick around. Please accept my condolences on losing such a good friend. You and Leftcoast respected each other very much and it always showed in your posts between each of you.

 

[Littledeer]

rightcoast:

snip..

am i insane to hope for something good out of this?

ABSOLUTELY NOT!! If you are insane for thinking that, then you would not be alone as that would make all of us insane too!!!!!!!

Highly unlikely!!!!!!

 

[Old Dominion]

Welcome back OD!

Hope you can stick around. Please accept my condolences on losing such a good friend. You and Leftcoast respected each other very much and it always showed in your posts between each of you.

Thank you LD. I think that everyone who participated on this forum or knew Dan feels the same way.

Moving on, I completely agree with RC on the FBI and the new agent. I had high hopes on the announcement they were going public with much of the information, but the more Carr speaks the more he sounds like Himmy Jr. Terribly frustrating that among other things, he appears to take most of Himmys assumptions as a starting point rather than starting anew with a fresh approach. Doesn't appear he entertains even the slightest notion that there could have been fundamental mistakes in the past. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

OD

 

[Albert18]

Thanks for your answers to my questions OD.

I was doing a lot of reading on the dropzone forum and one thing that I don't understand are the ideas that Cooper most likely didn't survive because he wasn't wearing the right shoes and/or the weather was too bad.

The area from Seattle to Portland is a mild climate even in winter. People just need to look at this area on a hardiness zone for plants map. We aren't talking about the Yukon here. If this guy has the grits to hijack a plane and jump out of it, I hardly think a little rain and a 40 degree temperature is going to kill him. I see this all the time where people who are from soft climates assume everybody is freezing to death if the temperature gets below 70 degrees. The temperature outside the plane at the altitude he jumped didn't matter. He wasn't going to camp for the night in that air.

As for the shoes, Cooper must have thought being nondescript was more important then wearing boots laced up to his neck with a business suit. One of the most important things he did was to not draw attention to himself and look at how effective that was. Do we even have an accurate sketch of him?

Because he chased everybody out of the back of the plane we don't know how he prepared himself for the jump and we don't really know what all he brought with him on the plane.

 

[mihaff]

Thanks for your answers to my questions OD.

I was doing a lot of reading on the dropzone forum and one thing that I don't understand are the ideas that Cooper most likely didn't survive because he wasn't wearing the right shoes and/or the weather was too bad.

The area from Seattle to Portland is a mild climate even in winter. People just need to look at this area on a hardiness zone for plants map. We aren't talking about the Yukon here. If this guy has the grits to hijack a plane and jump out of it, I hardly think a little rain and a 40 degree temperature is going to kill him. I see this all the time where people who are from soft climates assume everybody is freezing to death if the temperature gets below 70 degrees. The temperature outside the plane at the altitude he jumped didn't matter. He wasn't going to camp for the night in that air.

As for the shoes, Cooper must have thought being nondescript was more important then wearing boots laced up to his neck with a business suit. One of the most important things he did was to not draw attention to himself and look at how effective that was. Do we even have an accurate sketch of him?

Because he chased everybody out of the back of the plane we don't know how he prepared himself for the jump and we don't really know what all he brought with him on the plane.

I think you make a great point. These were the days when people brought all kinds of carry ons. He could have had a full jumpsuit and all weather gear stored and no one would have noticed him carrying it on. The discarded shoes and clothes he wore on could have been thrown out the door, like he meant to do with the tie perhaps. Not sure we will ever know what happened, but i do agree a man who planned on jumping out of a plane, probably planned for it and practiced it. it was not his first jump.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

I too was shocked to read of leftcoast's death. My condolences to all.

The FBI is an extremely politicized entity. Most lkely the new agent was assigned to the dbcooper case in response to the recent airplay of new theories on the case.

Does the FBI really want to solve this case at this point? Well, probably yes and no. They surely will look like fools if it turned out that they ignorned an obvious suspect right from the get-go.

And while it might be "easy" to compare someone's DNA to what the FBI now has, unless that "someone" gives a DNA sample willingly - which it seems unlikely that Ted Mayfield would do - the FBI would need to have a court order based on facts, not just suspiciions, to obtain a sample from anyone.

Perhaps someone will make a "dying declaration" some day. That's probably the only way the truth will come out.

 

[Richard]

I am a little surprised dummy chutes don't have a huge red warning "Dummy Chute Will Not Open" across them but maybe they were in such a rush they didn't look carefully.

When the money was found by the boy I wonder if authorities went back and thoroughly searched that specific area where the $ was found. It sounds like the money washed up on shore though...

Normally inert or dummy training devices are properly marked and stored separately from their live/operable counterparts. I do not know the specifics in this case, other than a secretary (not trained in parachutes or jumping) was the only person at the school when police called and told her to have the chutes ready. There was a rush on because the airplane with all of its crew and passengers were circling the field waiting to land.

I believe that the FBI did do some digging in the vicinity of where the money was found to try to locate more, but with no luck.

 

[Old Dominion]

Anyone could pick up a DNA sample from anyone at any time. The true question pertains to the FBI control sample that came from of all sources...the tie.

It is troubling that the FBI couldn't produce the cigarette butts, and agent Carr states that he's got techs "looking for them". Gotta' be kidding.

I have EVERY reason to believe that the FBI doesn't want this case solved, and I've got a theory on this. Another reason why the pressure needs to increase.

Think about this, how could it be that the FBI actually spent money on Duane Weber's DNA analysis? I'd have bet my retirement + 401K on that one w/o ever wavering, and I'd have been right. The problem is that WRT the tie they could eliminate whoever they want because the source is just so WEAK and possibly contaminated over the years and may very well not contain any of Cooper's DNA. A much better source that would include e-skin from the lips on the numerous butts. And now we're told they've been lost .......???

Sorry, but I've got to dispute the FBI when they say they're out to solve this case. I believe they've got their best PR face forward with damage control in high gear, nothing less.

OD

 

[DEPUTYDAWG]

Here I am Buzz and Dawgie ;} Krams to you both. I came here the minute I heard the blurb on FOX this morning. HAPPY NEW YEAR to everyone.

I am simply in a state of shock to learn about Dan's passing. I always admired him so much for his tenacity and passion for learning the truth in our case. It was like the local Sleuther ferreting out factual discoveries that all seemed to lead towards solving the case. I am so sorry he was not well and for that I know he is in a better place. But he will always be in my mind as the perfect example of how an independent Sleuther can make a real difference!

Thanks Rightcoast for coming back to post and I'll look forward to reading your thoughts on the case. I remember you well from the KOIN show and have always thought of you and Dan together in the hours you spent trying to solve the case. I am sorry you have lost your friend, and please know you do have friends here too! Scandi

:blowkiss: So VERY glad to see you popped in, Scandi!!!!!!

Happy 2008 to you!

 

[Albert18]

One of the things I find odd is how the FBI continues to downplay Cooper's abilities. That just doesn't make sense to me.

Apparently if Cooper was an expert skydiver he would have hijacked this airplane when the temperature was 75 degrees, there was no wind, and he would have jumped when the sun was high in the sky. And he would probably have been picked up by law enforcement within minutes after he landed.

Hasn't the FBI ever considered the fact that weather that is good for jumping isn't good for getting away. If Cooper was confident in his jumping skills, wouldn't he choose weather that gave him the best chance of getting away?

Didn't Cooper have choices of when to do this crime? What makes the FBI think he didn't deliberately choose that day because he LIKED the weather forecast. From what I can tell, the weather was miserable, not dangerous.

 

[Old Dominion]

One of the things I find odd is how the FBI continues to downplay Cooper's abilities. That just doesn't make sense to me.

Apparently if Cooper was an expert skydiver he would have hijacked this airplane when the temperature was 75 degrees, there was no wind, and he would have jumped when the sun was high in the sky. And he would probably have been picked up by law enforcement within minutes after he landed.

Hasn't the FBI ever considered the fact that weather that is good for jumping isn't good for getting away. If Cooper was confident in his jumping skills, wouldn't he choose weather that gave him the best chance of getting away?

Didn't Cooper have choices of when to do this crime? What makes the FBI think he didn't deliberately choose that day because he LIKED the weather forecast. From what I can tell, the weather was miserable, not dangerous.

You've got a VERY good point Albert. Since the beginning of this case there have been claims that the temperature, not even discussing the rain, would have killed him. Nonsense!

If you watch the KOIN segments on youtube the jumpmaster they interview said that the jump would be "no problem", temperature...."no problem".

To this day, I've been as perplexed as LC and others as to why the FBI makes these rather stupid assumptions. The current agent in charge of the case, Larry Carr, has openly stated that Cooper was not an expert skydiver but "knew enough to be dangerous". He's also gone so far as to exclude Kenny Christenson based upon the fact that he's not.... swarthy. ???

WTF?? Does anyone think that this kind of logic is ever going to solve this or any case?

One thing that always bothered LC and myself included is that when the FBI switched agents on a case they essentially "picked up" where the previous agent left off as opposed to starting with a new approach. At the time I couldn't believe that this was the status quo, but I think it's obvious that this is still what's happening.

Shouldn't we be better served by our tax dollars?

OD

 

[Niner]

snip...

This site will never be the same without him, and he'd have wanted the case both of you solved to move forward.

OD

I believe that too OD!

Onward and Forward, RightCoast!!

Has anyone contacted the FBI yet about LC & RC's findings???

 

[Old Dominion]

I believe that too OD!

Onward and Forward, RightCoast!!

Has anyone contacted the FBI yet about LC & RC's findings???

Niner,

Good to hear from you again. We've got to keep this going. One of the DD quotes in an email I received back in NOV (one of the last) was that he was "never so sure of anything in his life", referring to TM as Cooper. Understanding just how thorough he was, he'd covered all that could be 36+ years after the heist.

WRT the FBI, he told me they had everything he knew, but not so much as an acknowledgment from them. I'm hoping that RC will return and elaborate. Agent Larry Carr is aware of TM but I have no idea what's going on, I'm as disappointed in his efforts as RC.

OD

 

[Albert18]

Kenny Christenson is an interesting prospect. At first I didn't notice a resemblance to the sketch until I looked at the mouth area. I don't go much by the eyes or the hair because I don't trust that part of the sketch but the mouth area could be the one area the witnesses got right. In the sketch, Cooper has a distinctively shaped mouth and so does Christenson.

I believe Christenson worked for Northwest so I agree there would be a risk of being recognized but can that really be assumed. Maybe there wasn't a risk. After all these years, the FBI needs to loosen their criteria.

There is one thing I find odd about the crews behavior during the hijacking. Cooper's demeanor was described as polite and civil. He certainly was not a raving maniac who looked and acted like he could lose it at any moment.

The crew knew four things; he said he had a bomb, he was given parachutes, if he jumped he would jump out of the rear of the plane, and they knew he was messing with the rear steps. So why does this crew fly all the way to Reno without finding out what was going on in the rear of the plane? It seems to me the biggest risk to them would be that he would activate the bomb and then jump. Yet they fly along like they are on a milk run.

 

[Old Dominion]

One thing about Kenny C. is that we was an FA. This may not mean much, but there is something I've been thinking about, aside from someone at NW recognizing him on the fight or in the terminal. It's not that much, but a small chink.

It's what made American airlines different from foreign ones.

OD

 

[Albert18]

Apparently the FBI is going on the assumption Cooper planned on jumping right after the plane took off from Seattle. I suppose among other things, that assumption is based on the fact Cooper wanted the steps down when the plane took off, he wasn't specific about the path the plane took to Mexico, and he started fiddling with the steps right after the plane became airborne.

I agree with LeftCoast that they make too many assumptions. The problem is if you are wrong, those assumptions can really taint the investigation.

Here is why I would question that assumption.

Those steps were going to be Cooper's getaway. Maybe he was worried he couldn't open them during flight or they could do something to them so they wouldn't open during flight. As it turned out he did have trouble with the steps.

Law enforcement was already activated in the Seattle area. Why jump into an area where they are already riled up and on alert.

If he was planning on jumping right after takeoff, wouldn't he have gotten ready to jump while the plane was still on the ground. Didn't he send Tina to the front after the plane was airborne?

I think the FBI is making a big mistake assuming this guy wanted to jump within eyeball distance of his house, or his car, or his comfort zone. I don't think this guy had to make it back home before his mother checked on him. Maybe he was willing to wing it regardless of where he landed. I assume this guy was a big boy.

The FBI says he didn't ask for a specific flight path. True, but he did want to go south and he did ask for a low altitude flight. Did he know that request would narrow the options of where the airplane could fly and was he willing to live with those options?

I think a better assumption is that he wanted to be out of the airplane before Portland and my guess is the closer to Portland the better.

 

[Old Dominion]

Apparently the FBI is going on the assumption Cooper planned on jumping right after the plane took off from Seattle. I suppose among other things, that assumption is based on the fact Cooper wanted the steps down

I always assumed he wanted them down so that no one would know when he jumped, the sooner they were down, the sooner he could send Tina and her fly-ble to the cabin.

Those steps were going to be Cooper's getaway. Maybe he was worried he couldn't open them during flight or they could do something to them so they wouldn't open during flight. As it turned out he did have trouble with the steps.

Very good possibility. On American owned airlines in the 70's & 80's FAs were well schooled in things like safety and exits and emergency oxygen etc. In fact before every flight the FA's would demonstrate this as SOP. I never saw a European airline's FAs do this. This meas that certainly FAs would know how to operate the aft stairs. So, WRT Kenny Christiansen as an FA, he'd have known how to lower the aft stairs. No problem.

I think the FBI is making a big mistake assuming this guy wanted to jump within eyeball distance of his house, or his car, or his comfort zone.

When did the FBI say this? I don't remember that.

I don't think this guy had to make it back home before his mother checked on him. Maybe he was willing to wing it regardless of where he landed. I assume this guy was a big boy.

He still would need an escape plan, regardless of where he landed. So far, no chute, no shoes, no Cooper. All that's left is to drain the river of Tosaw's choice.

OD

 

[Niner]

snip...
WRT the FBI, he told me they had everything he knew, but not so much as an acknowledgment from them. I'm hoping that RC will return and elaborate. Agent Larry Carr is aware of TM but I have no idea what's going on, I'm as disappointed in his efforts as RC.

OD

Hey OD! good to "see" you back posting here!!
re 1st bold - I didn't know that!
re 2nd bold - so am I....

 

[Niner]

snip...
Kenny Christenson is an interesting prospect. At first I didn't notice a resemblance to the sketch until I looked at the mouth area.

where is this?? (the sketch of this guy?) - never heard of Kenny?? Where did I miss that? Can you provide a link to this sketch, Albert? TIA!