Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 23

[Texana]

Texana I refer you back to my answer to this very same question in my previous post to you. As my opinion hasn't changed.

And Mrs Fenns statement refers to the Ist May not the night Madeleine went missing.
Do we know if the McCanns have actually given a different timeline to the PJ for the 1st May?

Yes, according to the official report, the McCanns when they admitted to leaving the children alone previously, said their "usual routine" was to check on the children every thirty minutes. The two accounts for May 1st were contradictory.

 

[april4sky]

April, I just re-read it but still don't understand. Why do you need to read the actual statements when the PJ report was made with Mrs Fenn account and she hasn't complained at all about it?

Because Mrs Fenns statement covers the 1st May not the 3rd.
The timeline for the actual checks on the night Madeleine went missing have been reported but not for the night of the 1st May.
I haven't yet read that the McCanns have contradicted Mrs Fenns statement for the 1st May or given an explanation.

 

[twinkiesmom]

Because Mrs Fenns statement covers the 1st May not the 3rd.
The timeline for the actual checks on the night Madeleine went missing have been reported but not for the night of the 1st May.
I haven't yet read that the McCanns have contradicted Mrs Fenns statement for the 1st May or given an explanation.

Mrs. Fenn's statement proves their normal pattern was abject child neglect.

 

[teacherbees]

Mrs. Fenn's statement proves their normal pattern was abject child neglect.

Exactly. And Madeleine paid dearly for that child neglect.

 

[Tony Bennett]

Just to get the 'take' of the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children on this issue...

They say:

QUOTE

The NSPCC advise that most children under 13 are not mature enough to cope in an emergency, and should not be left alone for more than a very short while. You should never leave babies or young children alone in the home, whether they are asleep or awake, not even for a few minutes.

UNQUOTE

By contrast, the McCanns told us that they had been interviewed by a child care officere who had told them that what they did was 'well within the bounds of responsible parenting'.

Mind you, they've never disclosed who told them that - nor has any official admitted to saying that.

It's just another one of the McCanns' little 1,001 secrets.

Like where they were and what they were doing when Madeleine was sobbing her heart out, crying 'Daddy, Daddy'.

Like how much money has been paid into their 'Helping to Find Madeleine Fund' - and what it's been spent on.

Like who's paying their lawyers's fees.

And so on.

P.S. The McCanns are both qualified Doctors, still registered with the General Medical Council of England and Wales

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[SleuthMom]

Because Mrs Fenns statement covers the 1st May not the 3rd.
The timeline for the actual checks on the night Madeleine went missing have been reported but not for the night of the 1st May.
I haven't yet read that the McCanns have contradicted Mrs Fenns statement for the 1st May or given an explanation.

Fair enough. I will try to search tonight to see what I can come out with.

Colomom, dear is there anything out there that can help us in this point about Mrs. Fenn's statement about May 3rd?

 

[colomom]

Fair enough. I will try to search tonight to see what I can come out with.

Colomom, dear is there anything out there that can help us in this point about Mrs. Fenn's statement about May 3rd?

Ok SM...

Mrs. Fenn was referring to the night of May 1st when she reported hearing what she thought was Maddie crying.

We do not know if the 1.5 hours without adult supervision was "typical" or just that night. The T9 tell us they checked frequently. We have read reports that the waiters at the Tapas bar said no one (except RoB) left the table that night until Kate did her check.

Once again, it is a matter of looking at the big picture rather than dissecting one single incident and making it fit into your theory. I have read many articles, reports, rumors, speculation, etc. that indicate that the McCanns were less than vigilant on their holiday. I have seen the evidence of them leaving the twins in the creche in the days following Maddie's vanishing. I have not seen a single report, article, rumor, etc. that confirms what the McCanns and the T7 have said. In fact, with all the checking that was supposedly going on it is a miracle that no one called LE to report all the people in and around the apartment that night.

When it comes right down to brass tacks people, the McCanns have freely admitted that they left those babies alone, even after Maddie complained, and therefore, in my opinion, are capable of very neglectful behavior. I believe they did not give a chit about anything other than their own enjoyment. The preponderance of the "circumstantial" evidence d a m n s them. IMHO, of course.

Monday will bring a new day. The world's press will have access to the completed dossier. Let's watch and see who has the "big brass one's", eh?

Did that help/answer? I can go (as my baby girl loves to say) search up some more stuff on the internet. Let me know.

 

[Salem]

I would second what Colomom is saying and what Texana has said several times before in this discussion. The McCanns have insisted they were doing their own "baby listening" throughout the vacation, checking the children every 1/2 hour. Throughout the vacation, whether directly said, or just implied, does not matter to me. I understand that matters to April and that's okay.

The bottom line is the McCanns behavior on the night of May 1st is inconsistent with what they said they were doing throughout the vacation. If their words are inconsistent with their actions on May 1, why would the words and actions be consistent on May 3rd? They lied about May 1, so in my opinion, there is no reason to believe them about May 3rd. And there is proof of the lie on May 1, or evidence, whatever you want to call it, it exists. Not only in the form of Mrs. Fenn as witness, but in Kate and Gerry's own words when they tell the story of Maddie asking where they were. Pretty simple really.

There is some logic it is difficult to argue with. I think this is just that type of logic.

Salem

 

[SleuthMom]

Did that help/answer? I can go (as my baby girl loves to say) search up some more stuff on the internet. Let me know.

No thats just fine Colomom, like my 8 year old son likes to say. You are a genius. :blowkiss:

Also, remind me on May 1st they were also in the same restaurant than May 3rd? I recall a news story where they stated the Mc Canns went to dine in a place that was quite far from where they were staying and left the kids alone as well.

Based on news reports, Did Mrs Fenn hear anything on the night of May 3rd?

 

[SleuthMom]

They lied about May 1, so in my opinion, there is no reason to believe them about May 3rd. And there is proof of the lie on May 1, or evidence, whatever you want to call it, it exists. Not only in the form of Mrs. Fenn as witness, but in Kate and Gerry's own words when they tell the story of Maddie asking where they were. Pretty simple really.

Absolutely!!!

 

[colomom]

No thats just fine Colomom, like my 8 year old son likes to say. You are a genius. :blowkiss:

Also, remind me on May 1st they were also in the same restaurant than May 3rd? I recall a news story where they stated the Mc Canns went to dine in a place that was quite far from where they were staying and left the kids alone as well.

Based on news reports, Did Mrs Fenn hear anything on the night of May 3rd?

The reports of dinner at Chaplins have never been confirmed or even reported in the (legitimate) press, as far as I know. I think that may very well be a forum rumor. Just not sure about that.

I would not be surprised if they did have dinner a mile away from the apartment but, that would make me feel physically sick, if confirmed. Can you imagine???

SM...give your boy a big kiss from me, I'm blushing. Compliments from little boys tend to do that to me My boy told me I was the world's greatest mom because I bought him an ipod shuffle today....money means nothing :nluv:

 

[Texana]

To me, regardless of the other nights, these things stand uncorrected for May 1st:

Mrs. Fenn heard a child crying she identified as Madeleine (older girl, as a mother she could probably identify age roughly) for an hour and fifteen minutes. Then she heard the parents come in "through the front door" at that point in time.

To me, the detail of "through the front door" is very telling. She heard the physical sounds of the front door opening, and then the crying ceased shortly thereafter, by implication. Or she was no longer concerned enough to pay attention to time after she knew the parents to be home.

I've timed my neighbor's pit bull howling when it has gone on for some length of time with very little effort. I can easily see Mrs. Fenn being able to do so in her resort apartment directly above the McCanns.

The McCanns made it quite clear that although they did leave the children alone they were doing their own form of "baby listening" (an odd phrase considering they did not have babies, they had toddlers and a preschooler--quite a different thing than listening for a crying baby) every thirty minutes as their "regular routine." That means every night, including May 1st. They did not make exception for any night. Regular routine. Period.

The official report made it quite clear that they questioned the McCanns about the night of May 1st (probably without letting them know of Mrs. Fenn's account) and the response was that they were checking every thirty minutes.

Oddly enough, those checks were not confirmed by any one else outside of the Tapas 9 diners.

Not Mrs. Fenn, (British expatriate) not the waiters, reportedly, nor the aerobics instructor the night of May 3. It does not seem to be much of a regular routine if it was not followed May 1st or May 3rd.

Either the McCanns were telling the truth, or everybody in Portugal at the time of their stay was telling the truth. They cannot both be correct.

 

[SleuthMom]

Texana, thanks. I wonder why it took 1 hour and 15 minutes for the parents to reach the apartment. Do we know when they were notified of Madeleine crying?

In situations like this, I wish I could go back to my Journalist days and ask the RIGHT questions and the HARD ones to the Mc Canns. In my opinion so far, for whatever weird reason, they haven't been asked the questions they should.

 

[Salem]

Sleuthmom - I think they were not asked the right questions because they had deals with the British press as per Kate's journal. Be nice to us and we will let you take pictures. Rumor has it that for all personal interviews the questions had to be pre-approved by the McCanns. That's why they were so startled in Germany and then again in Portugal, when Gerry got mad and walked off the set.

After that, they got wise and the standard answer was "we can not violate the secrecy provisions of the Portugese law."

So... now is the time to ask those questions. They can no longer hide behind that "secrecy" rule.

It is thought and rumored that the night Maddie cried, the McCanns were at Chaplins and the OC staff had to go fetch them. As Colomom said above - not sure if that is true. If it is not, and they were just at the Tapas, then probably staff did not go fetch them and they just took their time getting snookered before returning to the apt.

I have not read the report yet, although I do send many thanks to Colomom for all her hard work in posting it and all the Portugese media updates. I have tried to keep up with the media reports.

It is odd behavoir for parents, especially parents that are educated in the type of injuries that a child might suffer when left alone.

Salem

 

[Morag]

I remembered this from September 7, 2007.

Here's my post 205, part 13, page 9:

She cried the night she died. Or a twin did.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/...ADELEINE-DOWN-

...On the night Madeleine disappeared, Mrs Fenn also heard a child crying...

I wonder what else Mrs. Fenn has told PJ? It has been my experience that elderly ladies who live alone and have little to do are good observers of things that go on in their own neighborhood. (No, I don't mean you, Mother). I'll bet she knows just what time she heard the crying, how long it lasted, and how suddenly it ended. And no doubt there could have been other sounds, voices... She will make an awesome witness

.

The link to the Express no longer works, but this link will take you to an article that quotes the Express article to which I referred:

http://aftermathnews.wordpress.com/...vital-information-never-questioned-by-police/

Assuming that this is accurate, then the crying was either during the pre dinner hours, or during the few minutes when the Tapas babysitting service was not active.

And before anyone says we don't know this for sure, that's okay. We are having a discussion and trying to bring in information from any reasonable source. Perhaps the pieces will fit together for us if we keep an open mind.

 

[april4sky]

Ok SM...

Mrs. Fenn was referring to the night of May 1st when she reported hearing what she thought was Maddie crying.

We do not know if the 1.5 hours without adult supervision was "typical" or just that night. The T9 tell us they checked frequently. We have read reports that the waiters at the Tapas bar said no one (except RoB) left the table that night until Kate did her check.

Once again, it is a matter of looking at the big picture rather than dissecting one single incident and making it fit into your theory. I have read many articles, reports, rumors, speculation, etc. that indicate that the McCanns were less than vigilant on their holiday. I have seen the evidence of them leaving the twins in the creche in the days following Maddie's vanishing. I have not seen a single report, article, rumor, etc. that confirms what the McCanns and the T7 have said. In fact, with all the checking that was supposedly going on it is a miracle that no one called LE to report all the people in and around the apartment that night.

When it comes right down to brass tacks people, the McCanns have freely admitted that they left those babies alone, even after Maddie complained, and therefore, in my opinion, are capable of very neglectful behavior. I believe they did not give a chit about anything other than their own enjoyment. The preponderance of the "circumstantial" evidence d a m n s them. IMHO, of course.

Monday will bring a new day. The world's press will have access to the completed dossier. Let's watch and see who has the "big brass one's", eh?

Did that help/answer? I can go (as my baby girl loves to say) search up some more stuff on the internet. Let me know.

Colomom this is why I have a problem with your big picture.:waitasec:

 

[april4sky]

Madeleine McCann - Family are victims of bungling and incompetence

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/view...of-bungling-and-incompetence-100252-21381800/
Calamitous *advertiser censored*-ups together with diversionary and devastatingly damaging leaks to the press solved nothing, but caused untold misery and heartache.
There are many innocent victims of what has laughably been called the “investigation” – but Madeleine, herself, is the biggest victim of them all.

No one is disputing that this, the abduction of a young child in a sleepy holiday resort, presented the Portuguese police with a particularly difficult challenge.
And unused to being under the glare of the international media, they were like rabbits caught in headlights – frozen in fear and unable to act.
Their stubborn, blinkered and bloody-minded approach was aided and abetted by Portugal’s secrecy laws, which hindered rather than helped.
It was a calamitous cocktail of precious few facts mixed together with a mountain of fiction. The biggest and most poisonous of smokescreens began choking our senses last September, when Madeleine’s mum and dad were made arguidos.
they thought he looked shifty – it now seemed clear that this was an investigation with no place whatsoever for reason and common sense.
Amid all the lies and distortions being peddled in Portugal, an enlightened piece of journalism appeared in the leading Lisbon newspaper Diaro de Noticias last December.
Columnist João Miguel Tavares talked of the need for the media in Portugal to “make a serious analysis of its role in the tragedy and activate mechanisms to stop it from behaving again as a ping-pong table throwing too many lies and too little information”.
He also wrote that it was now “as likely that the case will be solved as penguins starting to fly” and referred to the “it will go away” attitude that people in Portugal have, adding: “I suppose this is now also the strategy of the detectives leading this case – let’s keep quiet and soon nobody will remember ... In the PJ (Polícia Judiciária) all they dream about now is the silence of the archives.”

And now, they have it.

But while the police in Portugal may have given up on Madeleine, her family haven’t – and they never will.

****
So true IMO.

 

[colomom]

Colomom this is why I have a problem with your big picture.:waitasec:

That's why using your brain can be so important. It's called sleuthing....

 

[Tony Bennett]

Comments on Liverpool Echo article


I comment on the extracts published by april4sky:


Calamitous *advertiser censored*-ups together with diversionary and devastatingly damaging leaks to the press solved nothing, but caused untold misery and heartache.

REPLY: Typical smearing of the work of the Portuguese police, which had to cope with two enormous burdens at the same time – (a) intense international exposure, all emphasising the ‘heartache’ of the parents whose child had definitely been abducted, and (b) intense British government involvement and pressure from Day 1.

+++++

There are many innocent victims of what has laughably been called the “investigation” – but Madeleine, herself, is the biggest victim of them all.

REPLY: No doubt that Madeleine is a victim. But if the abduction claim is false, then just look at the list of victims: the Portuguese police and the Portuguese taxpayer, the British police and the British taxpayer, all that wasted police time in literally dozens of countries on investigating hundreds of false ‘sightings’, the children who gave their pocket money and the pensioners who gave their weekly pension to the Helping to Find Madeleine Fund, the truth-seekers who have been branded ‘McCann-haters’ and ‘witch-hunters’ – and worse, Father Pacheco, the Portuguese tourist industry. Not to mention other child victims of parents who leave them home alone, whose plight has been forgotten, as we chase ‘Amber Alert’ systems and the like.

+++++

No one is disputing that this, the abduction of a young child in a sleepy holiday resort, presented the Portuguese police with a particularly difficult challenge.

REPLY: No, what presented the Portuguese police with an almost unique challenge was the abduction claim, plus the surrounding international blaze of publicity and British government involvement. And that against a background where it is known that in 99% of cases of infants going missing from their permanent or temporary residence elsewhere, the child is dead through accident, negligence or worse, and the family is responsible.

And who says there was an abductor? The McCanns. And who saw the abductor? Jane Tanner. And, er, that’s it! No other evidence

+++++

And unused to being under the glare of the international media, they were like rabbits caught in headlights – frozen in fear and unable to act.

REPLY: Yes. Unfortunately, I agree.

+++++

Their stubborn, blinkered and bloody-minded approach was aided and abetted by Portugal’s secrecy laws, which hindered rather than helped.

REPLY: No evidence at all that the Portuguese police were any of those things. Portuguese secrecy laws are little different from elsewhere. Here in the U.K. the police do not normally discuss their evidence and suspects do not normally talk to the press.

+++++

It was a calamitous cocktail of precious few facts mixed together with a mountain of fiction.

REPLY: The fiction - plus the ensuing ‘Pact of Silence’ - came from the McCanns and their ‘Tapas 9’ friends.

+++++

The biggest and most poisonous of smokescreens began choking our senses last September, when Madeleine’s mum and dad were made arguidos.

REPLY: No, not at all. One of the greatest smokescreens, hoaxes, smoke-and-mirror exercises, call it what you will, was the abduction charade played out on the evening of 3rd May by the McCanns and their ‘Tapas 9 friends’. As I am very confident time will tell.

+++++

They thought he [Amaral] looked shifty - it now seemed clear that this was an investigation with no place whatsoever for reason and common sense.
Amid all the lies and distortions being peddled in Portugal, an enlightened piece of journalism appeared in the leading Lisbon newspaper Diaro de Noticias last December.

REPLY: Oh yes?

+++++

Columnist João Miguel Tavares talked of the need for the media in Portugal to “make a serious analysis of its role in the tragedy and activate mechanisms to stop it from behaving again as a ping-pong table throwing too many lies and too little information”.

REPLY: But some of the most important ‘leaks’ have turned out to be confirmed by the Portuguese police summary report released recently. Cadaver dogs smelling death and blood, Mrs Fenn hearing a sobbing Madeleine, David Payne and Gerry McCann making sexualised jokes about their children, contradictions in the evidence of the McCanns and the ‘Tapas 9’, the shutters not jemmied open as falsely claimed by the McCanns etc.

+++++

He also wrote that it was now “as likely that the case will be solved as penguins starting to fly” and referred to the “it will go away” attitude that people in Portugal have, adding: “I suppose this is now also the strategy of the detectives leading this case – let’s keep quiet and soon nobody will remember ... In the PJ (Polícia Judiciária) all they dream about now is the silence of the archives.”

REPLY: The Portuguese police are fed up with the case, due to the cost, the adverse criticism of their efforts, the difficulty of securing cast-iron evidence without a body, and the continuing international media campaign to sustain in the public’s mind that this really was an abduction and that the McCanns are ‘heartbroken victims’ (cough). I really don’t blame them.

But let’s look at one dedicated Portuguese police officer - Goncalo Amaral - and see what has happened to him. He…

• Suspected the parents
• Tried to get evidence against them
• Was thwarted by British government interference
• Spoke up about it
• Was thrown off the investigation
• Decided to sacrifice between 30% and 40% of his police pension to retire early to write a book about the case and tell us the truth, so far as he could
• Published his book, and…

has been vilified by the British and international media as moustachioed, sardine-munching, fat, lazy, heavy drinking, useless, malicious, greedy for money – and worse.

The British journalists have been given their script.

And are sticking to it.

Shame on my country

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[SleuthMom]

From the report:

- they woke up around 07H30, had breakfast in the apartment, going out at around 09H00;

- soon after, they left their children at the nursery, until 12H30;

- around 14H30, after lunch, they put their children back at the nursery, this time until 17H00;

- at 17H30 they did the children’s hygiene, and settle them in their respective beds by 19H30, all in the same bedroom;

- at 20H30, the couple went out to the restaurant;

Why did they take the kids at all ON THIS "FAMILY HOLIDAY" if they were almost ALL the time at the nursery? I don't understand that at all. For me, this is typical of people who wants kids just for "image" or to see how it is like but they don't want to take responsibility of them

SleuthMom
Mom of three, hopefully more in the future