Theories

[Ravyn]

But more I look into the scream, heck without looking at her clock the scream could had been at 11:00pm. I been going by her time 12 to 2 am. Well since she didn't go by her clock I really don't think her time should count,and I been reading the past post on the pineapple,I think it was gave soon after they got home since JBR didn't eat much at the White's.Since they did plan to leave early I don't think they would wait thirty to forty minutes.

 

[BBB167893]

Does anyone have a link about toilet rage cause they sound like they heard about this alot and please make the link other than the one on PR. I been looking for it and can't seen to find it nowhere.

I have some. Let me get back to you.

 

[Ravyn]

Thank you SD

 

[BBB167893]

Thank you SD

No sweat.

"In guidelines appearing in Pediatrics, it is asserted 'more child abuse occurs during toilet training than during any other developmental step...'"

 

[Ravyn]

Thanks again SD.

 

[BBB167893]

Thanks again SD.

My pleasure.

 

[calicocat]

If there was a struggle between PR and JBR that night, resulting in a head injury, PR would have realized immediately that her daughter needed to be taken to the ER. Even if she died on the way to the hospital, PR still would have taken her inside to try to save her life. I believe that something else happened that night, where PR did something weird to JBR, perhaps an innocent punishment type thing, only to find her dead a few minutes later. I was thinking about the garrot. Suppose PR tied a garrot around JBR's neck, in a way that it kept her from moving, say from off the toilet? JBR could have struggled to free herself, unknowingly strangling herself like a dog that jumps over a fence while tied to his leash. Does anyone remember reading a time when PR put a dog's leash around JBR's neck after she had wet the bed? I thought the housekeeper talked about it happening, but I can't find it anywhere in a book or on the internet.

 

[DeeDee249]

If there was a struggle between PR and JBR that night, resulting in a head injury, PR would have realized immediately that her daughter needed to be taken to the ER. Even if she died on the way to the hospital, PR still would have taken her inside to try to save her life. I believe that something else happened that night, where PR did something weird to JBR, perhaps an innocent punishment type thing, only to find her dead a few minutes later. I was thinking about the garrot. Suppose PR tied a garrot around JBR's neck, in a way that it kept her from moving, say from off the toilet? JBR could have struggled to free herself, unknowingly strangling herself like a dog that jumps over a fence while tied to his leash. Does anyone remember reading a time when PR put a dog's leash around JBR's neck after she had wet the bed? I thought the housekeeper talked about it happening, but I can't find it anywhere in a book or on the internet.

I've never heard about the dog leash. The garrote used to keep her on a toilet doesn't make sense to me. But you have a valid concern about the head bash. If it happened accidentally, as in an accident, of course PR would have summoned help ASAP whether she thought JBR might die (or was already dead). So yes, there HAD to be a reason why this didn't happen. The reason is that the head bash likely happened in some kind of rage incident. A coroner can tell when stories sound "fishy". If they'd called for help and an autopsy discovered the vaginal injuries that would have resulted in the parents being arrested. Trying to say she fell down the stairs or something doesn't work either- someone who fell down the stairs has specific bruising to show for it. It also doesn't work to say she fell and hit her head. The coroner stated this was blunt force trauma, which is specific to being struck on the head with something, and NOT striking something with your head. Big difference in the injury, though both may be lethal.

 

[calicocat]

I thought the vaginal injuries were part of the staging to suggest she was killed by a child molester. Not true? In any event, I still believe PR had to have found JonBenet after she died, not suspecting that whatever she had done to her that night was lethal enough to kill her. If it happened the other way, a rage inflicted blow to the head, that means PR would have intentionally let JBR die just to protect herself. Cover up a murder? Yes, I can see PR doing that, but intentionally letting her child die? No way.

 

[Ravyn]

But you have to remember she died by strangluation not the head blow,and with no evidence under JBR fingernails there was no stuggle when she died, so the headwound would account for the reason she didn't stuggle.

 

[DeeDee249]

But you have to remember she died by strangluation not the head blow,and with no evidence under JBR fingernails there was no stuggle when she died, so the headwound would account for the reason she didn't stuggle.

Actually, she probably died of the head blow. The coroner put both on his report because both contributed to her death. The skull fracture would have killed her even if there was no strangulation. The ligature may have contributed to her death, but the head blow was fatal.

 

[DeeDee249]

I thought the vaginal injuries were part of the staging to suggest she was killed by a child molester. Not true? In any event, I still believe PR had to have found JonBenet after she died, not suspecting that whatever she had done to her that night was lethal enough to kill her. If it happened the other way, a rage inflicted blow to the head, that means PR would have intentionally let JBR die just to protect herself. Cover up a murder? Yes, I can see PR doing that, but intentionally letting her child die? No way.

There WERE injuries caused by staging. But the reason for the staged injures was to hide that there had been previous vaginal trauma, including hymenal erosion (which happened over time).
JBR was likely rendered comatose from the head blow, and it may have appeared to PR that she was already dead. Her blood pressure and body temperature would drop from shock, and her breathing may have been so shallow as to be undetectable.
When the rage attack occurred and JBR slumped immediately into unconsciousness, that was a point of no return. Death was inevitable, even to an untrained eye. Cracking a skull to that extent would have been loud. And the effect instant. Calling for medical intervention would not help JBR at that point, but would have resulted in arrest of the parent(s). Thereby depriving BR from his parents AND his sister. PR had ovarian cancer. While she enjoyed a long remission, her death was always on her mind. I think to keep herself available for her surviving child BR she would have done anything. And she did.

 

[BBB167893]

I've never heard about the dog leash. The garrote used to keep her on a toilet doesn't make sense to me.

I know where that one's from. Judianne Densen-Gerber postulated a few years ago that PR MIGHT (a theory) have done something like that. Not that it actually happened.

If they'd called for help and an autopsy discovered the vaginal injuries that would have resulted in the parents being arrested. Trying to say she fell down the stairs or something doesn't work either- someone who fell down the stairs has specific bruising to show for it. It also doesn't work to say she fell and hit her head. The coroner stated this was blunt force trauma, which is specific to being struck on the head with something, and NOT striking something with your head. Big difference in the injury, though both may be lethal.

:clap:

 

[Ravyn]

It don't make no sense to me the R's older children would fly past Charleviox, but now if they was in Boulder and to get out fast to fly to Minneapolis and wait word from JR though the pilot.. And some are looking for motive let's just say for a moment the oldest was there and JB told MR that Daddy or JAR touched her and MR told her that she was lying that never happen..And JB mistake was telling the wrong one...And MR handprint on the winecellar door is a mstery and the hair was said be close to MR but also said she most likely would never used the blanket that was found in the winecellar.. So who would gain if everyone thought PR killed JB..Even a poster here said they don't think the R's lied about everything so maybe when PR said why didn't I hear my baby maybe she was telling the truth other than staging.. Now a red flag went up in me when the statement made that MR alibi was tighter than JR why? could she had remember she touched the winecellar door.. I don't know this is just my opinion ..

 

[Sophie]

It don't make no sense to me the R's older children would fly past Charleviox, but now if they was in Boulder and to get out fast to fly to Minneapolis and wait word from JR though the pilot.. And some are looking for motive let's just say for a moment the oldest was there and JB told MR that Daddy or JAR touched her and MR told her that she was lying that never happen..And JB mistake was telling the wrong one...And MR handprint on the winecellar door is a mstery and the hair was said be close to MR but also said she most likely would never used the blanket that was found in the winecellar.. So who would gain if everyone thought PR killed JB..Even a poster here said they don't think the R's lied about everything so maybe when PR said why didn't I hear my baby maybe she was telling the truth other than staging.. Now a red flag went up in me when the statement made that MR alibi was tighter than JR why? could she had remember she touched the winecellar door.. I don't know this is just my opinion ..

Hi Ravyn. Really interesting post. Must say I'm not really familiar with a lot of this stuff but you do provide yet more food for thought

Regarding MR, it's a pity that LE upset her early in the investigation since older sisters are quite often really well-attuned to their little sisters and their worlds and she might have been able to provide a real insight.

Generally, one thing about JBR's older sisters and the abuse rumours is that a lot of emphasis has been put on the fact that neither sister had told anyone about any abuse. I forget who it was, but at least one person in LE was convinced that their girlfriends would know if there had been anything untoward in JR's relationships with the girls and took the absence of this knowledge among their girlfriends as pretty compelling evidence that there had been no abuse. In fairness, women do chatter and confide, but not necessarily about things that are deeply buried like sexual abuse. People go the grave carrying that sort of secret. Not that I think JR did harm his girls in that way but he WAS given a pass on what seem to me to be flimsy grounds.

 

[Sophie]

There WERE injuries caused by staging. But the reason for the staged injures was to hide that there had been previous vaginal trauma, including hymenal erosion (which happened over time).
JBR was likely rendered comatose from the head blow, and it may have appeared to PR that she was already dead. Her blood pressure and body temperature would drop from shock, and her breathing may have been so shallow as to be undetectable.
When the rage attack occurred and JBR slumped immediately into unconsciousness, that was a point of no return. Death was inevitable, even to an untrained eye. Cracking a skull to that extent would have been loud. And the effect instant. Calling for medical intervention would not help JBR at that point, but would have resulted in arrest of the parent(s). Thereby depriving BR from his parents AND his sister. PR had ovarian cancer. While she enjoyed a long remission, her death was always on her mind.

I think to keep herself available for her surviving child BR she would have done anything. And she did.

:clap:


That last sentence may yet prove to be at the very heart of this case.

 

[Sophie]

A couple of people on this thread mention garrotes. I know quite a fuss has been made about parents not killing their children in this way but I swear I was reading about a case in America in the seventies where a guy actually did
garrote his daughter with a device fashioned with a ribbon from a teddy bear. Hours on the Internet have thrown up nothing, though.
Will someone please tell me that I'm not yet so disturbed to have dreamt this and that it did actually happen. I think the guy was a footballer/baseballer/NASCAR guy or something....

 

[Ravyn]

I been looking but I can't find it but this is intersting so I will keep looking if I find I'll let you know..

 

[Sophie]

I been looking but I can't find it but this is intersting so I will keep looking if I find I'll let you know..

Aw thanks, Ravyn, you are an :angel:

I think I have found the reference I was after in 'A Rose for her Grave' by Ann Rule. It's actually not quite how I remembered it but, just as a matter of interest, this is it:

'The King County detectives had conferences with Lee Yates, a senior deputy prosecutor....Yates had prosecuted some of the most difficult homicide cases the county had ever come up against. Indeed, he had once taken a man to trial not once but twice for the strangulation murder of his wife and infant daughter. Lee Yates won, but he knew all to well the difficulties encountered in the investigation of an intra-family murder. When Yates prosecuted race-car driver Eric Haga in 1973 and again in 1975, it was for a double murder that occurred in the Haga family home. Fingerprints, hair, fibres, even the necktie and the satin ribbon from a teddy bear that were used as garrotes were no good as evidence. They all belonged in the home.'

 

[Ravyn]

So I wonder if that since the stuff used in the home of JB would be consider no good evidence since it belonged there and say how would it be veiwed if someone used a key and used the stuff.. JMO