Theories: Why Would Elizabeth kill Gabriel?

[Khristi]

Yes, I agree- charge her even without the body. I remember the police chief saying something about aggravated murder.

She was very emotional on the stand for the custody case, and I think it's because she knows her fate in reference to the baby- so the more they can push her on it, the more likely she will crack.

 

[LogicalMinds]

I am starting this thread for those of us who believe that Elizabeth killed Gabriel

I think that is the most likely option even if it is sad.

so much theory and speculation is involved here that the idea that the (pessimistic but realistic) option is ignored and not even spoken of

My "theory" may not be happy or popular but I feel it is right and logical and I think that we should be allowed to discuss it there.

I see things like "Gabriel is alive!" based on nothing more than what some PI said. Someone said "his job is to find Gabriel">> well he hasn't found him that I can see

I think that the aspect of TS and her hubby overshadowed the bare facts here....from the start this was a case where Elizabeth had told the child's father that he was dead

Without the "window dressing" of TS the facts clearly point in this direction



JMO of course

 

[LogicalMinds]

Courtesy of Nancy Grace's Blog....


23-year-old mother Elizabeth Johnson left her Tempe, Arizona home with her 8-month-old son Gabriel Johnson on December 18, headed for San Antonio, Texas, according to local reports. While in Texas, Gabriel was believed to have been seen with his mother at a couple different hotels and allegedly at a six flags amusement park on December 26.

That was the last time anyone saw Gabriel Johnson. The following day, Johnson allegedly sends a text message and leaves a voicemail for Gabriel’s father and ex-boyfriend, Logan McQueary, telling him she killed little Gabriel. According to court documents, Johnson told McQueary that Gabriel was in a dumpster in a baby bag, describing the baby as blue colored and dead. Johnson then told McQueary she was planning to leave the country, and would tell McQueary where Gabriel’s body was when she had left. Johnson was arrested 3 days later in Miami Beach, Florida, but there was no sign of Gabriel.

Important to note that she has confessed here

the "green diaper bag" is still missing...lots of people seem to have forgotten that

IMHO TS and hubby added a layer of confusion and drama to this case that have obscured the fact that Elizabeth TOLD Logan what she had done

if Drew Peterson had texted and left a voicemail saying he had killed Stacy and detailing her "blue body" etc I think everyone would have believed him...so why not believe Elizabeth?

 

[LogicalMinds]

Let's look at :

Elizabeth's past behavior....from ignoring Gabriel, letting him lay in dirty diapers for hours, calling him "thing" and "it"..
trying to sell him for adoption (TS etc)

Bipolar and "off her meds">>> danger signal

Past violence : destroying clothes, furniture, apartment...destroying Gabriel and Logan's possessions

In an anger management class

troubled childhood....cryptic words from "grandfather"

and of course the fact that she "confessed" to Logan in text/voicemail

I do think it is a shame that Logan didn't press charges/get sold custody sooner

I don't see why she even had any custody or even visitation without supervision but tht is all past now

the facts are pretty clear to me

this was a violent woman who didn't care about her baby, saw him as a possession to sell and a way to hurt her ex....but at this point I think that she would be "giving up" the people who "have" Gabriel...except for the fact that these people don't exist. No one has him...she killed him or he died through overdose ....look at the pictures of him at the hotel, she was drugging him so she could party

Elizabeth is a selfish self centered person. As such I think she would "confess" and turn in anyone who "has" Gabriel. Most of the ideas that she would be this stoic and stubborn just to "hurt Logan" smack of wishful thinking to me. Her past has not shown such determination or self control.

I maintain that the reason she is not "talking" is that the only thing she could say would put her into a murder charge situaton

 

[BeanE]

Logical, this is a valid thread, a valid discussion topic, and a valid theory. Whereas there isn't a single piece of physical evidence that Elizabeth killed Gabriel, there is likewise not a single piece of solid evidence I can point to and say "There! That proves she didn't!".

Further, should Elizabeth be charged with homicide and it go to trial, we need to have a reference resource for all the circumstantial evidence.

Let's springboard this thread with pulling in the circumstantial evidence that points to Elizabeth having killed Gabe, and discuss it.

We need to be careful that we don't duplicate the "Did Elizabeth Kill Gabriel?" thread in this one. So everyone, in this thread, please stick to the premise that Elizabeth did harm Gabe, and focus on the evidence and indications that she did.

If you want to discuss whether or not Elizabeth killed Gabe, and more specifically to express your opinion that Elizabeth did not kill Gabe, please go to the other thread. Keep this for the premise that she did, and a discussion of the potential circumstantial evidence that would support that.

Thanks for starting this thread, Logical.

Here's the other thread link:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94551"]Did Elizabeth kill Gabriel? [/ame]


Thanks,
BeanE

 

[kissdegirl]

I don't personally share this opinion with you, but I am open to hearing you out. No reason why we can't discuss what we're all painfully aware is a possibility.

Do you think EJ took him somewhere for the purpose of taking his life, then, what, wrote in a journal some sort of defense if she were to be caught? Was it then premeditated?

What if there is more evidence of her meeting that couple that we don't know about, but the journal was what the PI was able to release? Would that change anything?

No doubt the S's muddied the waters, whatever happened...but if we find that EJ did take his life, and the S's had a part in helping her run...do you feel there could/should be more serious charges against them?

All there is as "evidence" is the text/call, right? Didn't we get confirmation that all of EJ's belongings had been recovered?

 

[LogicalMinds]

I have 2 theories as to what happened...neither are happy but they are valid in that they have some facts to base them on

1) Elizabeth killed Gabriel in a fit of rage....a valid premise given her past rage, her mental problems, off her "meds"...anger management classes,
she didn't seem to love Gabriel, called him "thing", had neglected him....she may have been frustrated when her attempt to adopt him out thru TS failed
she seemed very angry at Logan and may have taken that rage out on Gabriel

2) Elizabeth may have overdosed Gabriel...not really meaning to kill him but meaning to knock him out for her own selfish reasons. I think this is a very likely theory. The pictures of Gabriel in the motel in San Antonio...the "tyelenol"...the words of the "babysitter"

also a baby who overdoses would likely be "blue"....fits with her text. Elizabeth described Gabe as "blue">> she did not say "bloody" or "battered" or "bruised" or "messed up" etc...she said "blue": to me that would be consistent with an overdose

The lack of physical evidence in the motel room ....ie, blood, signs of violence ...also lead me to this theory

 

[LogicalMinds]

All of her belongings were recovered except for the green diaper bag

Elizabeth told Logan she had put Gabriel's body in a bag.

as far as "What if there is more evidence of her meeting that couple that we don't know about, but the journal was what the PI was able to release? Would that change anything?"....well anything is "what if"...if other evidence was shown sure my ideas would change...but so far I don't see any other evidence at all

I think that TS etc have no bearing on what actually became of Gabriel. Their "part" in this sad tale was before Elizabeth took off. They interjected themselves into the "media" story, for ? fame?? I think they actually thought they would get sympathy, maybe get people to give them a baby etc ....of course that didn't happen but really they have no direct connection to what happened to Gabriel in the end as far as I can tell

Any thing MIGHT have happened....but I am listing what I think happened based on logic, on probability and on the actual facts

In the "Occam's Razor" method of finding answers, the "simplest theory" is usually right...or more accurately the "theory that involves the least other circumstantial things" is correct

what I see here is a LOT of speculation....that would involve so many other "things" to happen to make it fit....it becomes like a Goldberg "invention">>>

ie, Elizabeth meets a HG, who just happens to know some mysterious couple who will meet up in a park in the morning and accept a blue eyed baby without any of his belongings (car seat, clothes, diapers etc)...Elizabeth would then just decide to text/call Logan for "spite" and describe Gabe as dead and "blue"...
etc etc

that is a lot of odd behavior with no real motive or logic and a lot of "speculation".

The simple theory is that Elizabeth did somehow kill Gabriel or overdosed him, she was in a high state of rage/fear/ and texted/called Logan with that news...then she took off to the hostel in Florida and began to think : maybe I can get away with this if I shut up

and so she sits there in jail....silent

 

[BeanE]

I have 2 theories as to what happened...neither are happy but they are valid in that they have some facts to base them on

1) Elizabeth killed Gabriel in a fit of rage....a valid premise given her past rage, her mental problems, off her "meds"...anger management classes,
she didn't seem to love Gabriel, called him "thing", had neglected him....she may have been frustrated when her attempt to adopt him out thru TS failed
she seemed very angry at Logan and may have taken that rage out on Gabriel

2) Elizabeth may have overdosed Gabriel...not really meaning to kill him but meaning to knock him out for her own selfish reasons. I think this is a very likely theory. The pictures of Gabriel in the motel in San Antonio...the "tyelenol"...the words of the "babysitter"

also a baby who overdoses would likely be "blue"....fits with her text. Elizabeth described Gabe as "blue">> she did not say "bloody" or "battered" or "bruised" or "messed up" etc...she said "blue": to me that would be consistent with an overdose

The lack of physical evidence in the motel room ....ie, blood, signs of violence ...also lead me to this theory

I think it would more likely have been rage. Elizabeth has a long history - from childhood - of uncontrolled rage including violence (chased dad around with an object hitting him as a child). Reports indicate that she is easily frustrated, and easily gets to the boiling point and then strikes out.

She seems to me to single-mindedly, unreasonably, impatiently, and selfishly pursue her wants, easily frustrated when she doesn't get instant gratification.

That week in San Antonio, on the heels of the week in Tempe, may have presented a slow build up to not getting what she wanted, with an accompanied waffling between thinking she was going to and being frustrated that she wasn't.

The 26th was accompanied by multiple phone calls from multiple people telling she couldn't, shouldn't, do what she wanted to do - from Tammi, Tammi's attorney friend, and Tammi's friend JM. I can easily see how the evening/night of the 26th could be the final boiling point.

Likewise, she may have gone to bed the night of the 26th thinking everything was going to work out, but have the frustration and irritation of all those phone calls, all those people telling her what to do under skin. Perhaps on the morning of the 27th she did plan on the exchange of Gabe with the couple, and either went to the park to meet them or didn't, but either way, at the last minute, around 10am, found out her plans were not going to work.

It is a fact that shortly after the time the exchange was to take place, that rather than being happy and ready to go on her trip, she was on the phone texting and talking to Logan, in a highly distraught state, making extremely vicious claims of having just killed Gabe. It is difficult to reconcile that as an act to hurt Logan if she really did just successfully accomplish effecting a solution to her problems.

An aside - regards physical evidence in the hotel - I personally think that if Elizabeth did kill Gabe, that she most likely did not do it in the hotel room. I don't want to elaborate on my thoughts on that just now, but I will say that one of my reasons for thinking that is her mention of a park. A park was on her mind, and that leads me to think that it is likely that she killed Gabe in a park or park-like setting - forest, woods, etc.

 

[BeanE]

What if there is more evidence of her meeting that couple that we don't know about, but the journal was what the PI was able to release? Would that change anything?

There is no evidence right now that blocks this theory. We could speculate all kinds of different evidence that would block it, but the fact is, right now, there is none. We're not looking in this thread to prove that EJ didn't kill Gabe.

All there is as "evidence" is the text/call, right?

I'm willing to bet that the prosecutor would tell you there is far more. And I think there is quite a bit of circumstantial evidence. Interestingly, statistically, most murder cases are purely circumstantial. Further interestingly, statistically, is that most purely circumstantial murder cases are successfully prosecuted.

Didn't we get confirmation that all of EJ's belongings had been recovered?

All of EJ's and Gabe's belongings were recovered and accounted for with the sole exception of the diaper bag.

 

[BeanE]

The simple theory is that Elizabeth did somehow kill Gabriel or overdosed him, she was in a high state of rage/fear/ and texted/called Logan with that news...then she took off to the hostel in Florida and began to think : maybe I can get away with this if I shut up

Or "maybe I can get away with this if I say I gave Gabe away to strangers I don't know".

 

[jessicat]

So if she did kill him...shouldn't she then be tried here in TX?

 

[BeanE]

So if she did kill him...shouldn't she then be tried here in TX?

Yes, they'd have jurisdiction for homicide charges.

 

[iluvmua]

When I first heard that EJ had been apprehended in Miami 4 days after Gabe was last seen I knew she had to have done something to Gabe.

This is what I have been thinking since day 1, esp hearing about her past behavior. Past behavior predicts future behavior.

right now, I would be SHOCKED if they found him alive.

 

[kappy50]

So if she did kill him...shouldn't she then be tried here in TX?

Could that be why SAPD hasn't dropped the charges ???

 

[iluvmua]

Could that be why SAPD hasn't dropped the charges ???

very possible

 

[artsy1]

Let's look at :

Elizabeth's past behavior....from ignoring Gabriel, letting him lay in dirty diapers for hours, calling him "thing" and "it"..
trying to sell him for adoption (TS etc)

Bipolar and "off her meds">>> danger signal

Past violence : destroying clothes, furniture, apartment...destroying Gabriel and Logan's possessions

In an anger management class

troubled childhood....cryptic words from "grandfather"

and of course the fact that she "confessed" to Logan in text/voicemail

I do think it is a shame that Logan didn't press charges/get sold custody sooner

I don't see why she even had any custody or even visitation without supervision but tht is all past now

the facts are pretty clear to me

this was a violent woman who didn't care about her baby, saw him as a possession to sell and a way to hurt her ex....but at this point I think that she would be "giving up" the people who "have" Gabriel...except for the fact that these people don't exist. No one has him...she killed him or he died through overdose ....look at the pictures of him at the hotel, she was drugging him so she could party

Elizabeth is a selfish self centered person. As such I think she would "confess" and turn in anyone who "has" Gabriel. Most of the ideas that she would be this stoic and stubborn just to "hurt Logan" smack of wishful thinking to me. Her past has not shown such determination or self control.

I maintain that the reason she is not "talking" is that the only thing she could say would put her into a murder charge situaton

BBM - Question first, I thought I had been following this case pretty well, but I don't recall anywhere that it's been talked about that EJ liked to party and do drugs. Can you explain, please? Thanks!

I don't believe that EJ killed Gabe, but in keeping with the spirit of this thread, here's a thought.

Apparently in EJ's "journal", she writes about drinking and getting depressed about the loss of her mother. What if she started thinking about Gabe growing up and wondering why his mother gave him away, and killed him to "spare him" the kind of pain she's lived with all her life? :waitasec:

 

[LogicalMinds]

I don't think that she was a "druggie" per se...however when "off their meds" many people turn to alcohol and/or drugs as a self remedy

there has been speculation that she was on drugs when arrested (way she looked)

getting dressed up and going out to ?? "Party"> ? when she hired the babysitter

I think we have read that she had "used' alcohol etc before
so maybe not so much drugs etc...but she wanted to have fun I think and Gabriel was stopping her. I think the HG is just a random guy she was with , nothing has shown any real involvement there and I have not seen any "prior" involvement (like an internet correspondence) Elizabeth is a beautiful young woman and I am sure she had no trouble in finding a random guy to be with

 

[LogicalMinds]

I believe she killed or OD'd Gabrial. I feel that is why she doesn't talk.
If Gabrial was out there, to save her own butt I think she would scream!

Yes....this is one of the many reasons I feel that she did kill this poor baby.

The more time goes on the more this comes into importance.

Some claim that her need for "revenge" against Logan is so great that she is sitting there ...but....after awhile that becomes less likely

Sure, immediate anger/revenge might figure into this behavior...but when faced with lousy jail food, wearing jail garb instead of pretty clothes, lack of freedom, cooped up, no guys, sitting in that cell....all of this "resolve' and will power would surely dissolve.

My guess is that she is "back on her meds" in jail , stabilized, has had visits from family....has legal counsel

I am sure that she has also been questioned and probably with the "good cop/bad cop" routine. While they may not have presented specific "deal" to her I am certain that she has been told that she could "come clean" and helpt them find Gabe and avoid heavy charges/long prison term etc

and yet she does nothing?? I don't think you would find hardened criminals who would stay in jail just to "get revenge" on a former love

Not to mention that Logan is an object of sympathy and interest....if she is so revengeful wouldn't she want to stop that for him?? Just get it all over with??

No...she sits there because she has nothing to offer....she is not about to admit what (I think) she did....she is toughing it out, hoping that she won't be charged

I think once they charge her with murder and put out the idea of death penalty she will start with confession/excuses/

until then she sits there

 

[BeanE]

I think she DID want to tell the judge what she did with Gabriel at her custody hearing, but couldn't because her attorney told her to plead the 5th. IMHO, I think that's why she was crying - because she did want it over with but her attorney wants her to wait for trial - or perhaps a plea bargain first.

Attorneys only advise their clients of their options. The client makes the decision on what they choose to do. EJ, like any client, can listen to her attorney's advice, and say "Okay, I'm ready to take Option C, to talk and tell the whole truth about what I did with Gabe."

There's just no such thing as an attorney not letting a client talk, or do anything else.