Kyron's doctors appointment

[jessigirl]

It's my impression that the date of the appointment was communicated orally, and the "paperwork" was not a school form, but a questionnaire from the doctor for the teacher to fill out, and there would not be any need to have the date of the appointment on the form.

If it was a form from the doctor's office, i.e. for the purpose of gathering information about a child's behavior/symptoms in the school environment, then it makes sense to me that such a form would be given to a teacher well in advance of the actual doctor appointment in order for the teacher to have time to fill it out.

Just my impression.

ITA with what you have stated above concerning the paperwork from Dr's office(more than likely a type of questionare, as u stated also)And yes, I too would feel as tho this needed to filled out and at a later date when finished with the form it then be returned to the parent(TMH in this case) BEFORE THE DR.APPT(it would have to be finished and returned to parent BEFORE the appt, otherwise what would be the purpose of the teacher's input by completeing such form). And once again here is where it begins to NOT MAKE ANY SENSE AT ALL... i'LL EXPLAIN WHAT i MEAN... If TMH gave the questionaire to the teacher that day then OBVIOUSLY the form had not been filled out&returned to parent(as any semblence of the timeline of that mornings hours could NOT possibly have allowed for it to be completed&returned) so, TMH would NOT have had the form for the "appt" that the teacher was under the impression was why she was to fill it out(for Kyron to have with him at DR's appt). Therefore leading to my final observation of this specific situationwaitasec:which is where everything does NOT make sense:waitasecIf all stated above is true(&we've heard a couple of accts that it was true that TMH gave teacher form to fill out and for it to be taken to his dr.appt)so knowing that then OBVIOUSLY the teacher knew that she DID not completee and return the form to Kyron or SM, so why would she then still assume that Kyron was at a dr. appt, thus the reason for his absence..:waitasec:
I hope what I'm saying is atleast making my point that I am trying to get across.(Don't know who, if anyone, that if this proves to be fact, I'm not sure who it would benefit or NOT benefit) I just know that it does NOT make sense, nor does it all add up!? (IMO)

 

[CaringCitizen]

Well, I am going to back out of this thread, because I don't think it's appropriate to discuss...an appointment that was reported by a so-called friend...don't feel comfotable with any of this.

I think Terri might consider Jaymie Finster more than a so-called friend. But that's just my opinion.

 

[nanny2five]

Well, pretty much every theory I have hinges on this appointment misunderstanding one way or the other. To me, it's always been key.

i agree the misunderstanding itself could be important, if there was a misunderstanding and if its the answer to why the teacher didn't miss him all day. if there was no misunderstanding then why didn't she miss him all day? he is a seven year old who won't get out of bed until somebody goes in to get him. teacher had to know how timid he is. why did someone not miss this child? that's really the first answer i am looking for.

 

[Wrinkles]

Well for what it is worth... I thought I would weigh in here, and man can I weigh in after my son's wedding dinner tonight!

Okey dokey...
Thanks PufNStuf, great explanation of why this appointment issue could be important. I believe it certainly "could be" -- I agree with those who think so -- although, maybe not necessarily. Confusion about an appt. could get a kid marked absent, certainly -- it could open a window of opportunity -- but sheesh who knows at this point.

The good news is, there is alot that can be verified about who said/did what and when. I'm guessing LE has this one figured out (i.e. its all okay, or ... )

>>
Horman told Finster, "I just don't know what's going on. This is what I did that day."

Finster said Horman had told Kyron's teacher the day before that she was taking the boy to the doctor on Friday, June 11, and gave the teacher paperwork to fill out related to the appointment.

Finster said that when Kyron didn't show up at the bus the afternoon of June 4, Horman talked to the teacher who said she thought that Horman had taken Kyron to the doctor that day. Horman told Finster that the child's teacher was new, in her first year of teaching, and was hard of hearing in one ear. "She doesn't know if she understood her," Finster said.<<

Just as a few points of interest to me, because I'm scratching the noggin after reading the above.

Finster indicates:
1. TH told her what she did that day -- and TH is confused about what's going on (i.e. why the questioning, why the second Poly? -- in the context of the article)
2. TH told her that the teacher thought TH had taken Kyron to the doctor that day.
3. TH doesn't know if she understood her.

Then... It's kinda like Finster is indicating that Terri is making excuses, covering for the teacher -- i.e. "This is probably why the teacher was confused ... she is new to teaching (in her first year) and is hard of hearing in one ear -- she must not have understood that I clearly informed her that Kyron's appointment was for June 11th."

Now my brain gets a little scrambled by these explanations...:

1. If you are "new" to teaching, you don't understand communications?
2. If you are hard of hearing in one ear, you might not hear correctly?

A. We've learned this teacher isn't in her first year of teaching, but she hasn't been doing it 30 years. Either way, this teacher managed to understand communications well enough to make her way through a lot of years of school, through the job hiring process, while working a job etc. She certainly is not new to understanding communications about times, dates, etc.

B. People who are hard of hearing are probably fairly well aware of it (especially if they have communicated this to someone else) and they probably compensate. I turn my "good ear" to people when they are speaking to me. If I do not understand something they say, I ask them to repeat it. If I am really struggling, I ask them to write it down for me. Oh, you can bet I "hear" things... Ah, and I learn how to lip read a bit when I am hard of hearing and face those speaking to me.

C. IF I know that I am dealing with someone who is hard of hearing, I go out of my way to make sure that hearing isn't an issue in communicating, I make sure they are either looking at my mouth when I speak, or that I am speaking into their good ear, or I will stick post-it notes on something (like on the top of paperwork, "I need this before X date, my son has his doctor's appointment on X date.")

So...why would Finster even bring the whole appointment thing up? If there were no appointment issue, why is the appt. even addressed in the above quoted article? Why would she give TH's explanation of the appointment thing if this were not a part of some confusion going on? And...I find it interesting that it is like TH is granting an excuse to the teacher -- but the excuse doesn't make sense to me.

Again...through it all, I do NOT want TH to end up being anything but the loving attentive step mom. I am only looking closely at this because that is what we do when looking at the case of a missing child...if we want answers, we must discuss, we must think, we must look...and you can bet LE and the FBI are. They may have already put this ember out...but something feels like it isn't out yet (for whatever reason ... potential wrong doing on someone's part, teacher, TH, school ... pressure to make sure that this is well covered.)

To all WS'rs who were first looking at this case and PufNStuf:
In the first messages and threads, we were drawn to a comment from someone commenting after an online newspaper article (it could have been on "oregonlive.com") One of the WS'rs brought it to our attention and I would REALLY like to reread it again. This was WAY early in the situation (maybe the 5th or 6th), and so early that I have to think that this commenter knew something "more" just based upon the content of what they wrote. I think they identified themselves something like D***, their post referenced approx. 3 points that they were trying to clarify (one having to do with the appointment), it was almost like they were indicating they knew some details and wanted to get them out there... Our WS'r wrote something like "read the comment at 11:46, D***" -- that is not exact, a few of us had a hard time finding that comment. Does anyone remember this? If so, could you provide a link to that comment. I want to read it again and think about it.

 

[Wrinkles]

Just for the record...

We are NOT discussing "why" Kyron might have had a doctor's appt. Even so, behind the scenes I have been looking really closely at this, while loving this little birdie and hoping that I can have my "dream" of having him returned home safely.

I have had to look at the possibility that someday we may learn that whatever was behind the medical appointment could have played into why he is missing.

I'll hold my tongue.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I would strongly guess that no school employee may talk about anything related to this case. The school spokesperson has been given the job.

This would be done by the advice of an attorney. To violate this would be seen as insubordination.

I don't know anything about LE and the legal aspects about speaking about a criminal case .

Jobs and insurance coverage could well depend on compliance with the advice of the attorney(s) representing the school district and/or insurance company.

We do know from several sources that LE did ask the witnesses not to go to the media.

 

[DairyGirl]

i agree the misunderstanding itself could be important, if there was a misunderstanding and if its the answer to why the teacher didn't miss him all day. if there was no misunderstanding then why didn't she miss him all day? he is a seven year old who won't get out of bed until somebody goes in to get him. teacher had to know how timid he is. why did someone not miss this child? that's really the first answer i am looking for.

The reason I don't think the appt is important is that even if she didn't think he had an appt the school policy was not to call the parents. In the grand scheme of things it would have made no difference because no call would have been made. She may well have been worried that she didn't see him after the morning science fair but since they never called I doubt she would have done so then.

 

[Sounder]

In all innocence, if a parent is at the school with the child at drop off time, and then later on the child's belongings are there but the child is not seen again by anyone, I could see that parent showing concern that nobody said/did/reported alarm that the child was there but now gone.

In this case, it appears TH believes that an alarm should have been raised, and probably can only think the reason one wouldn't have been raised is that the teacher somehow misunderstood the dr appt date.

On the other hand, if a child never showed up at school at all, no belongings, etc., school policy is probably to expect an absentee excuse signed by the parent upon the child's return stating a reason for the absence.

 

[CharlestonGal]

In all innocence, if a parent is at the school with the child at drop off time, and then later on the child's belongings are there but the child is not seen again by anyone, I could see that parent showing concern that nobody said/did/reported alarm that the child was there but now gone.

In this case, it appears TH believes that an alarm should have been raised, and probably can only think the reason one wouldn't have been raised is that the teacher somehow misunderstood the dr appt date.
On the other hand, if a child never showed up at school at all, no belongings, etc., school policy is probably to expect an absentee excuse signed by the parent upon the child's return stating a reason for the absence.

BBM. I agree with you. My personal opinion is that the "misunderstanding" was deliberate. I also think leaving Kyron's backpack and coat in the classroom was deliberate as well. That leaves TH with evidence to say she thought Kyron was in school all day, but the appointment confusion allows the teacher to say she thought Kyron was at an appointment with Terri. The direct result of those two things allowed Kyron's disappearance to go unnoticed for hours.

To go one step further, the fact that Kyron's absence went unnoticed tremendously benefited whoever it was that took him from the school that morning. I'm personally not that big a believer in coincidence. It would be serendipitous indeed that a third person would directly benefit from this random misunderstanding. The odds are staggering, so I'm tended to drop that possibility to the bottom of the list.

That brings us back to TH and the teacher - the two people involved in the "misunderstanding" that started this whole chain of events. I have not heard one way or the other if Ms. Porter disappeared at the same time Kyron did, but I suspect she'd be the taking polygraphs and sitting through 6 hour interrogations if that was the case. I also doubt she would have been back in her classroom the following Monday if she had disappeared for a period of time on Friday morning.

We do know that TH did indeed disappear from the school right around the time Kyron did and LE goes so far as to say that TH is the last known person to see Kyron before he disappeared. She is also the one being poly'd and interrogated. She is also the one who created the appointment confusion and also the one who left Kyron's backpack and coat in the room.

I absolutely personally believe the appointment confusion was a crucial part of the events that morning and I believe the person who created the confusion is the person who benefited from it.

MOO and all that

 

[cloudajo]

I think Terri might consider Jaymie Finster more than a so-called friend. But that's just my opinion.

Agree. Just to follow up...

[snip]
When interviewed, Finster said Horman approved of her speaking out about the situation due to the scrutiny and speculation that‘s become rampant on the Web.

[snip]
Jaymie Finster, a friend from junior high school who worked with Terri in the school district.

[snip]
Finster has known Horman since they went to junior high in Roseburg and worked together in the Hillsboro School District, where Finster is a special ed teacher.
&#12288;
http://www.examiner.com/x-1168-Crime-Examiner~y2010m6d21-Kyron-Horman-latest-news-Jaymie-Finster-speaks-about-her-friend-stepmom-Terri-Horman-see-video
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/kyron_hormans_blended_family_f.html
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/friend_says_terry_moulton_horm.html

 

[cloudajo]

[snipped]I absolutely personally believe the appointment confusion was a crucial part of the events that morning and I believe the person who created the confusion is the person who benefited from it.

MOO and all that

Good post. I agree.

 

[cluciano63]

I am sure LE knows what they need to know about the alleged appointment and how it was communicated, if at all.

I also feel certain that no teacher or other employee of a school district is allowed to speak to the media about any on-going issue, say nothing of something with as much potential to be huge, as this is. The teacher knows what she knows and presumably told it to LE that very day and many times over since.

 

[CharlestonGal]

I am sure LE knows what they need to know about the alleged appointment and how it was communicated, if at all.

I also feel certain that no teacher or other employee of a school district is allowed to speak to the media about any on-going issue, say nothing of something with as much potential to be huge, as this is. The teacher knows what she knows and presumably told it to LE that very day and many times over since.

I agree. I was in the military for 22 years and now work for the VA. It's standard for government employees to be instructed to cooperate with LE, investigators, and inspectors, but to refer all media questions to the public affairs office. Since teachers are state government employees I imagine they are given the same instructions - cooperate with LE, but refer the media to public affairs.

 

[matou]

I wonder if there were two times this 'appointment info' was given to the teacher? This extra detail of there being 'paperwork' involved and given to the teacher the day before Kyron went missing was given more recently by TH's friend. Previous to this, all we heard about was a rumor that TM shouted to the teacher about an appointment on Friday (that same day?) and the teacher assumed that Kyron was at that appointment. This comment was posted somewhere and was written by someone on behalf of TH or was a friend of TH (I don't have a link but it was posted about like crazy on here!)

Are we to think that there were two separate events to communicate this appointment to the teacher?

 

[kgeaux]

But, proper procedure would be for Terri to inform the office. I think LE finding all they can about this appointment and possible condition is hugely relevant.

Just making sure I understand. You are saying that even if the teacher assumed Kyron had left for the appointment, a mother would not remove her child from the school during the school day without "checking him out." Is that right?

In my district, that procedure is that the parent stops at the front desk in the lobby area and signs the child out of school, listing the date, time and reason for the checkout. When I have had to do this, the secretary at the front desk has called the teacher and informed her that a student was leaving.

No teacher should ever just assume a child is gone for any particular reason if she hasn't bothered to check to see if the child has been checked out, IMO. I know this teacher was new to her job, and I am sure she has agonized over Kyron's disappearance and has wondered over and over if he could have been found that same day if she had raised an alarm.

THANK YOU! Why in God's name has the teacher not spoken or been given an interview? If I were Kyron's teacher I would be all over the place trying to help find him or help find out what happened to him. I don't know, but something about your statement just really stood out to me and I am once again questioning myself, where and what is the school's involvement in this missing boy's case? Why aren't they speaking out more and why on earth did other parents send their precious loved ones back to this school the following school day?

I was going to comment on why the teacher isn't speaking out, but human said it so much better than I was going to, so what human said!

The school district probably isn't speaking out because they have received legal advice that it is not in their best interests to speak publicly.

I think Terri might consider Jaymie Finster more than a so-called friend. But that's just my opinion.

They have sure known each other a long time, and Terri must have trusted her to speak with her so openly. After everything JF said backfired on TH, I wonder if they are still close! I'll bet TH has learned from this not to speak openly to anyone but investigators and not to let anyone else ever speak for her.

In all innocence, if a parent is at the school with the child at drop off time, and then later on the child's belongings are there but the child is not seen again by anyone, I could see that parent showing concern that nobody said/did/reported alarm that the child was there but now gone.

In this case, it appears TH believes that an alarm should have been raised, and probably can only think the reason one wouldn't have been raised is that the teacher somehow misunderstood the dr appt date.

On the other hand, if a child never showed up at school at all, no belongings, etc., school policy is probably to expect an absentee excuse signed by the parent upon the child's return stating a reason for the absence.

I agree with you. The presence of the backpack and jacket in the classroom works in TH's defense, in my opinion. She could not have known that the teacher would not notice these items, she could not have known that the teacher wouldn't grow concerned enough to call the front desk to see if Kyron had been checked out.

In fact, she would have had every reason to believe that the teacher should expect to see Kyron in the classroom if his belongings were there!

 

[BeanE]

I think Terri might consider Jaymie Finster more than a so-called friend. But that's just my opinion.

BBM. Or less at this point, since Jaymie has caused so much confusion, which some people are even blaming Terri for.

I'm sure Jaymie meant well, and was simply trying to support her friend. The backfire is probably painful for both of them, as well as others.

 

[human]

Just bouncing off your post:

FWIW: My sons school gave me a paper to take to his Dr. App. They had filled in their opinion of him.. as they thought he had inattentive ADD.. well they marked everything about him "always" meaning he always does that. Well long story short, my son went into his appointment and spoke & answered questions about the respiratory system(my sons choice) for 45 minutes... the doc thought the school was NUTS :dance:.... Told me either the teacher is not teaching him properly (as in answering all his questions) or he is bored with the subject she was teaching..


I don't even know why we are talking about this subject, but, I know many people with ADD/ODD/ADHD/Dyslexia/Dysgraphia/Dyscalculia all sorts of problems at school, and they did not go missing. So I am not understanding how any of this fits into Kyron gone missing.:waitasec:

People were confused on what kind of appt. They could not understand why a teacher would fill out paperwork for a doctor's appt.

The date of what the SM said and what actually transpired is what is at question here.

BTW-a child is your child. You are the one that decides what happens with your child.

In our schools and I imagine in all schools, a teacher cannot generate paperwork to get you to go to a doctor. If you don't want to do it, don't.

I always tell my parents that," This is your child, not mine. I do not feed, clothe, nor will I provide for your child to go to college. I do not own your child. You make the decisions."

ADD/H is very subjective. That is why it is done by questionnaire. There is no other way to "diagnose" it. Some people have done some kind of brain things with some kind of probe things for research, but as of now, there is no scientific way to do it.

There is also some kind of computer program that has a child do something with dots. I don't know if it's done anymore.

Sorry for OT, but I thought it might be a little enlightening. If not, oh well.

 

[human]

ITA with what you have stated above concerning the paperwork from Dr's office(more than likely a type of questionare, as u stated also)And yes, I too would feel as tho this needed to filled out and at a later date when finished with the form it then be returned to the parent(TMH in this case) BEFORE THE DR.APPT(it would have to be finished and returned to parent BEFORE the appt, otherwise what would be the purpose of the teacher's input by completeing such form). And once again here is where it begins to NOT MAKE ANY SENSE AT ALL... i'LL EXPLAIN WHAT i MEAN... If TMH gave the questionaire to the teacher that day then OBVIOUSLY the form had not been filled out&returned to parent(as any semblence of the timeline of that mornings hours could NOT possibly have allowed for it to be completed&returned) so, TMH would NOT have had the form for the "appt" that the teacher was under the impression was why she was to fill it out(for Kyron to have with him at DR's appt). Therefore leading to my final observation of this specific situationwaitasec:which is where everything does NOT make sense:waitasecIf all stated above is true(&we've heard a couple of accts that it was true that TMH gave teacher form to fill out and for it to be taken to his dr.appt)so knowing that then OBVIOUSLY the teacher knew that she DID not completee and return the form to Kyron or SM, so why would she then still assume that Kyron was at a dr. appt, thus the reason for his absence..:waitasec:
I hope what I'm saying is atleast making my point that I am trying to get across.(Don't know who, if anyone, that if this proves to be fact, I'm not sure who it would benefit or NOT benefit) I just know that it does NOT make sense, nor does it all add up!? (IMO)

I have filled them out in the AM and sent them home that day. We don't know when the paperwork was filled out.

We don't know if the teacher knows any details of the appt.

The teacher may have thought the alleged appt on June 4 was for something totally different like an eye appt.

The teacher may have thought that they spent the rest of the day together and just did not return to school. Maybe the doctor found something major, and that is why they did not return to school.

Whatever. If a child does not return to school with a parent, I may wonder what they are doing, but I would not know until the child returns to school and the parent chooses to share the info with me.

 

[human]

If a trusted parent who has volunteered many times in the school tells me that there is an appt, I would believe her.

When the trusted person takes the child, ,I would assume as a teacher that said parent signed the child out as said parent knows the rules and is reliable and responsible.

There would be no need to check up on such a trusted parent. Well, I guess this is a lesson for everyone, isn't it?

As far as the backpack and the jacket, in a low income school, a teacher would be concerned about those items as a child may really really need those items.

With well -to-do parents, the children probably have multiples of those items. Children are forgetful, and to remind the child teaches no responsibility. So the teacher would be no more concerned than finding the child's pencil.

They will only learn by experience if they really need an item and they don't have said item.

 

[Sissy1355]

Just a note (and I hope I am not taking this off track) but I am VERY familiar with IEP meetings since I was a physically disabled child in a public school. There were always forms sent from my doc to the school so that he could see what, if any, challenges I was facing due to my disability. He would always send a note back stating what could be done to make the situation better for both me and the teachers.

With Kyron's mom stating in the interview yesterday that he had very poor eyesight, I wonder if this may be the reason for this appointment and paperwork. I know at all my former schools children with more than moderate visual impairment were always evaluated with an IEP so the schools and parents could find the best way for the child to function in that environment.