Why not very much blood?

[RedChief]

BlueCrab, you wrote--"In one of my BDI theories I suggest that JonBenet likely died at around 1:18 A.M. (time of death was recorded by the killer as $118,000 in the RN), and John found her around 4:00 to 4:30 A.M. or so (about 3 hours later). Lividity sets completely in an adult after 4-12 hours after death (it sets quicker in heat), except in a child it would set sooner."

Isn't that interesting! I once theorized the EXACT SAME THING and got the idea from a scene containing a digital clock in the movie, Nick of Time. At one point in the movie there was a brief shot of this clock, just as it "struck" 1:18. At first I thought this was just another reference in the note to a movie. There were many such references. But, later that it was a means of recording time of death, DRAMATICALLY and for posterity, occurred to me.


Betcha I thought of it first!

 

[Camper]

I need some cracks filled in.

Red Chief, quotes you as posturing this:

"BlueCrab, you wrote--"In one of my BDI theories I suggest that JonBenet likely died at around 1:18 A.M. (time of death was recorded by the killer as $118,000 in the RN), and John found her around 4:00 to 4:30 A.M. or so (about 3 hours later)"

Explain to me, I may have missed it, how you determined that John found her around 4:00 to 4:30 AM, how did you arrive at that thought.

Thank you.


.

 

[RedChief]

When John carried JonBenet upstairs weren't her arms stiff above her head? How could she be wrapped like a cocoon if her arms are rigid above her head?
Jubie

jubie,

Good point. She couldn't. A cocoon is an envelope that entirely encapsulates it's passenger.

I think John said she was wrapped like an Indian papoose. Interestingly, John may have referred to her when she was a baby and/or toddler as his papoose. I've seen one picture where they are hiking and he's carrying her in a pouch strapped to his back. I remember reading a transcript of some of his comments, maybe delivered before a student audience at some college, when he started to say something--"pa..." in reference to JBR then corrected himself. Maybe some of the posters here can enlighten us on that. Once upon a time, perhaps at the same venue, he also corrected himself when he was talking about the time of the killing. He said "night" and corrected that to "morning", or vice versa, my memory is foggy about that. It was as if he knew for sure which it was and it slipped out. A virus got into my computer and I had to rebuild the hard drive; lost everything.

Although the child was wrapped in the blanket, according to John, when he found her, her head, arms and feet were protruding, he said. If memory serves, all that is protruding from the swaddling of a papoose is the head, so his description wasn't entirely accurate.

Can anyone explain why JBR's arms were thrust into the air (as it were); i.e., above her head? That is not a very comfortable posture for a supine, living human being; try it.

Hope this helps.

 

[Nehemiah]

John Walsh saying that John (Ramsey) "cut her down" has always made me believe that her arms were positioned above her head because she was either hanging, or sitting propped up with her arms hanging onto something. How that can all fit into lividity--I don't know. But the position of her arms certainly would lend to her being in the position I just described.

 

[RedChief]

John Walsh saying that John (Ramsey) "cut her down" has always made me believe that her arms were positioned above her head because she was either hanging, or sitting propped up with her arms hanging onto something. How that can all fit into lividity--I don't know. But the position of her arms certainly would lend to her being in the position I just described.

Nehemiah,

Roger that. I remember when I first saw the movie, Ransom, thinking that the position of JBR's arms and the cord around the wrists might have been to simulate the posture of the kidnap victim (the boy restrained on the bed) in the movie, but still couldn't figure out how JBR's arms were kept in that position long enough for them to be frozen thus in rigor mortis. That something had been pulling on them as you describe may just fit the bill.

I'm still unclear whether both wrists were tied when John found her. When he brought her upstairs there was no cord around the left (wasn't it?) wrist; this despite his having said that he tried to get the cord undone but couldn't. There's still some mystery surrounding this wrist ligature. Also he said they were tight, so tight that her wrists had swollen in proximity to them; yet, the coroner said he was able to slip the ligature off her right wrist easily. I've also heard it reported that the knots at the wrists were slip knots. If that is so, then they might only be tight when tension is applied to the cord; when the cord is relaxed the loops may loosen. So, even though they may have been the sort of loops that could rather easily be removed from the wrists (why did John have so much trouble?) while the cord was slack, they may have been effective as restraints while the cord was under tension; i.e., while she was hanging or otherwise restrained. There was no mention of any evidence of "hanging injuries" to her wrists however.

Is it your understanding that the arms were straight as if they had been under tension for some while, or were the elbows bent to some degree? These are things I've always wondered about.

 

[BlueCrab]

Explain to me, I may have missed it, how you determined that John found her around 4:00 to 4:30 AM, how did you arrive at that thought.

Camper,

I don't think the timeline from when the Ramseys say they got up, 5:30 A.M., to when they had to be at the airport, 6:30 A.M., was enough time.

It was a 20-minute drive to the airport, so they had to be leaving from their driveway by 6:10 A.M. And when Patsy says she found the ransom note, allegedly around 5:45 A.M., she admitted she was on her way to the kitchen to make coffee. And the children hadn't even been woken up yet. I don't believe them. It just doesn't make sense to purposely plan ahead of time and create a time-crunch like that.

Therefore, I think they planned for and got up earlier -- probably 4:00 - 4:30 A.M., to be at the airport by 6:30.

 

[BrotherMoon]

Can anyone explain why JBR's arms were thrust into the air (as it were); i.e., above her head? That is not a very comfortable posture for a supine, living human being; try it.

Some describe crucifixion as "hanging apon a stake", arms above the head, hands together.

It's also a position of praise. The Paugh sisters got together that day and chanted verses of forgiveness, swaying with their arms raised.

If the garrote handle is pulled up, behind the head, it comes to the same level as the wrists, with arms raised, on a child that size.

The broken end of the paint brush handle could have fit into a hole, with the other end sticking out for the wrist cord to be wrapped around. The brush handle could have been broken and the end left in the hole.

 

[RedChief]

Wolf vs Ramsey

JonBenet had black duct tape covering her mouth, a cord around her neck that was attached to a wooden garrote, and her hands were bound over her head in front of her: she was covered by a light-colored blanket. ( SMF 38: PSMF 38.) A "Barbie" nightgown belonging to JonBenet was also found in the wine cellar near her body. (SMF 149: PSMF 149.) JonBenet's blood was found only on her body and the Barbie nightgown. (SMF 150; PSMF 150.) Mr. Ramsey ripped the duct tape off JonBenet's mouth and attempted to untie her hands. {SMF 39; PSMF 39.} He then carried her body upstairs. {SMF 39: PSMF 39.} It was only upon the discovery of JonBenet's body that the Boulder police began to secure properly the home as the crime scene. (SMF 53: PSMF 53.)

I believe in the Beckner deposition there was mention of the dna x, slightly suggesting dna found on that nightgown as well..the dna x


Oops..a little edit ..a question to BC..was this room warm? If so why did they choose a warm room to store wine?

"The cord was attached to a wooden garrote": Nope. The cord and the wooden item together formed the garrote.

"...her hands were bound over her head in front of her.": Nope. This is misleading. Her hands weren't bound; her wrists were bound but separable by 15 inches of slack cord.

"...in front of her.": Nope. How could they be bound over her head and in front of her at the same time? That they weren't tightly bound together (crossed) and behind her back is what is significant to me.

"...light-colored blanket.": Nope. White blanket.

"JonBenet's blood was found only on her body and the Barbie nightgown.": Nope. Not on Barbie nightgown. What was that stain on her pillow case? Is that a sign she was clubbed while in bed?

Not a warm room; good place to preserve a body.

Off to the Beckner deposition I go....

 

[sissi]

RedChief...I'm not so certain this information is wrong, perhaps the mention of the hands being tied is misleading, however when someone applies a device to your wrists to "take ya off to the paddy wagon" the device is referred to as "handcuffs".
I have always pictured the hands being held up in front of her above head level,is this a wrong impression?
Do we have a picture of the blanket that covered her? Or a description by law enforcement? Probably , but I do remember Patsy looking at such a picture and saying it looked pink, and the interviewer suggested the color quality was off. How many blankets were on the floor of the wine cellar? Two?
Are you certain there was no blood on the barbie nightgown?

Have ya' had a chance to review Beckner's depo?

 

[BlueCrab]

In regard to the temperature in the basement -- from the 1998 interviews (while discussing John's solo visit to the basement that morning):

MIKE KANE: "Now you said that that window was open a bit, but that sometimes that had been open before to let air -- "

JOHN RAMSEY: "It was open for ventilation. It was wide open, because with the heat all winter, that room would really get hot. So if the kids were down there and playing, you had to open the window."

MIKE KANE: "And that was a room where the kids played a lot with the train?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "The train was there. Burke used to play with that. They didn't play there a lot. Burke did, from time to time. But not so much JonBenet. That was Burke's train room."


So it appears the basement got pretty hot during the winter; and JonBenet's body was in the wine cellar (which was called a wine cellar by the Ramseys just for the fun of it) right next to the boiler room. (Heat, incidentally, significantly speeds up the putrefaction of a dead body.)

BlueCrab

 

[RedChief]

sissi,

About the wrist ligature: yes, misleading but not necessarily deliberately. This isn't an easy thing to describe in a few words. I might have said, there was as cord tied around each wrist; there was 15 inches of slack in the cord between the wrists. That would have depicted it accurately, no? But, you know, when people are trying to be succinct, summarizing and trying to describe things in a few words, accuracy almost suffers and ambiguity rears it's ugly head. I don't know what your point is about handcuffs?????? Not talkin' about handcuffs here. Should we say her hands were cuffed with a cord that allowed her to move them freely within a 15 inch limit? BTW, what do you make of this wrist ligature; what does it signify?

The hands could have been held up in front of her, if they were raised above her head as has been reported, considering that she was lying on her back. But, reports were that the arms were raised above her head as John carried her up the stairs and into the foyer. At that time the body was vertical, so, for this description to be accurate, the arms would have had to be vertical also. The artist's depiction (for what it's worth) shows her lying on her back with arms extended superiorly (not above her head as you have stated). This arm/hand posture is peculiar and yet unexplained. UKGuy has theorized that the body entered rigor while she lay on her stomach with the arms/wrists/hands extended BEYOND or superiorly (not above) her head. If this were so, it would have to be consistent with the lividity that was present when she was found. What's your take?

I'm not certain of anything, and, yes I have reviewed the Beckner deposition, and no, he doesn't specifically mention any blood on anything other than her clothing that she was wearing and on her body. He does mention the mystery DNAX but since he is having that tested by the FBI to compare to "suspects", isn't it safe to assume that isn't blood which came from the Barbie nightgown? Not that it couldn't be, but why conjecture that? Beckner said no blood except on the clothing she was wearing and on her body. There was also a report of some substance (stain) on the pillow case on her bed. Don't know what that was all about. A suspicious stain on the pillowcase could suggest that she was struck while she slept.

 

[RedChief]

Yes, BlueCrab,

It appears that the basement got pretty hot, at least in the play area. Does that mean that the wine cellar also got pretty hot? I remember reading that the room had once been a coal bin and had been converted into a wine cellar, so-called because a former tenant stored wine there. If it is true that a former tenant stored wine there, that may have been the coolest room in the basement; maybe cool enough to *advertiser censored* rigor. Of course, how cool it would be would depend on the situation at the time--had the furnace been replaced with a bigger, less-well-insulated one; had additional basement heating ducts been installed, had the thermostat in the basement malfunctioned, etc., etc., etc.

The rigor doesn't appear to have been accelerated in this case, does it?

BTW, who explored the train room first that morning? If Fleet, why didn't he mention having to move things to get into the room? If Fleet, why did he put stuff back after he left the room? What's your take on that?

 

[sissi]

Could John be lying concerning the condition Jonbenet was in when he found her?
Perhaps, he did "cut her down" as John Walsh suggested, perhaps he did redress her for the sake of propriety.
This isn't necessarily likely, but possible. My sisters do not know my mom was found dead lying on the floor, they still believe she "peacefully passed" in her sleep. For my sons, and my sisters, I LIED about her position as to not add to their pain . In my case,of course , it made no difference, an aneurysm is an aneurism, so the whens and wheres didn't matter.
However, with John Ramsey, a father, wouldn't he have pulled up her longjohns and kept quiet if he found her exposed? Would it be too late to tell the truth without looking as though he was covering for "someone" in the house. Would doing this one thing confuse the crime scene by perhaps adding fibers under her clothing. YEP! If his lawyer knows this, would he not tell him to leave it be, because telling after the fact makes one's comments fall into the category of inconsistent? Could Fleet have seen part of this redressing and "think" John not telling was worth a feud?

Red Chief..these picture, the ones that still show her wearing the shirt, do they suggest a positioning of the arms? and......no, I'm not certain the artists rendering is correct..
http://crimeshots.com/CrimeScene1.html

 

[RedChief]

Could John be lying concerning the condition Jonbenet was in when he found her?
Perhaps, he did "cut her down" as John Walsh suggested, perhaps he did redress her for the sake of propriety.
This isn't necessarily likely, but possible. My sisters do not know my mom was found dead lying on the floor, they still believe she "peacefully passed" in her sleep. For my sons, and my sisters, I LIED about her position as to not add to their pain . In my case,of course , it made no difference, an aneurysm is an aneurism, so the whens and wheres didn't matter.
However, with John Ramsey, a father, wouldn't he have pulled up her longjohns and kept quiet if he found her exposed? Would it be too late to tell the truth without looking as though he was covering for "someone" in the house. Would doing this one thing confuse the crime scene by perhaps adding fibers under her clothing. YEP! If his lawyer knows this, would he not tell him to leave it be, because telling after the fact makes one's comments fall into the category of inconsistent? Could Fleet have seen part of this redressing and "think" John not telling was worth a feud?

Red Chief..these picture, the ones that still show her wearing the shirt, do they suggest a positioning of the arms? and......no, I'm not certain the artists rendering is correct..
http://crimeshots.com/CrimeScene1.html

sissi,

Before I forget, one of the basement windows shown on that site (good photos!), the non-crime scene photo, isn't THE window. Do you know which room it's in? Didn't one of the windows open into a crawl space or a dead end or the like? Could this be it? It hinges horizontally.

John redressed her? Put soiled undies on her? Just pulled them up? That might explain the dark fibers? Maybe, but if memory serves, the dark fibers were found sticking to the smeared areas. The fibers wouldn't be adhering to the smeared areas unless the smeared areas were somewhat wet at the time of the supposed redressing or cleansing process. That would mean John found her right after those areas had been "wiped".

The John cut her down hypothesis: Where is the evidence? No pressure marks on her wrists made by cord under tension to suggest this, were there?

Why would John pull up her longjohns and keep quiet about it? Why wouldn't he report this to the authorities? To fail to do so could hamper the investigation. Why wouldn't he notify authorities immediately upon finding her dead and in this hanging position? UKGuy postulated that she may have gone into rigor while lying on her stomach; also dovetails with the location of the urine stains--urinated while lying on her stomach; but, if that were so, how would we account for the lividity on her back and on the right side of the face which was turned to the right when she was found lying on her back. The lividity is consistent with the position of the body when found, but not consistent with the position of the body (or live girl) when she urinated. What's your explanation for that?

Don't think Fleet saw that.

I'm not sure the artist's rendering is correct either. Maybe you can see some suggestion of a positioning of the arms in those photos, but I can't. Don't forget, at the time those pictures were taken, rigor had begun to wear off. You can see that the head isn't turned to the right in the photos as it was when she was found. The head's been repositioned. Also, the neck ligature doesn't appear to me to be at the back of her neck as stated in the autopsy report; appears to be somewhat to the right side of the neck. Guess I'll have to re-check the autopsy report.

Sorry about your mom; sisters a lot younger than you? I lost my dad to a stroke.

 

[BlueCrab]

It appears that the basement got pretty hot, at least in the play area. Does that mean that the wine cellar also got pretty hot?

RedChief,

The wine cellar was a concrete windowless room NEXT TO THE FURNACE ROOM. The Ramseys enlarged the house after they bought it, including putting in a larger furnace. One has to assume that the entire basement got hot in the winter time when that big furnace was cranking away. The temperature that night had dipped to around 10 degrees F.

 

[RedChief]

RedChief,

The wine cellar was a concrete windowless room NEXT TO THE FURNACE ROOM. The Ramseys enlarged the house after they bought it, including putting in a larger furnace. One has to assume that the entire basement got hot in the winter time when that big furnace was cranking away. The temperature that night had dipped to around 10 degrees F.

BlueCrab,

Roger that. Makes sense. Maybe LHP could tell us, or someone else who'd been in the room. Maybe the perp will log on and post that information.

BTW, there was mention of some boards in the room that Burke is alleged to have been using for something he was building in there. I believe Patsy mentioned this to LE in one of her interviews while looking at photos and identifying things in the room. Are you aware of what he and his friend/s were building in that room? Patsy said they were always (frequently) in there working on that.

The material on the floor that contained the shoe prints: are we sure it was mold, not that it's terribly important; could it have been alkali? Was it the sort of mold that grows in a warm environment? Has it been analyzed?

"His eyes were hollows of madness; his hair like mouldy hay..."--AN

 

[Miss Daisey]

Red Chief....LE said in PMPC the dust on the floor of the wine cellar was dust from the natural decomposition of the old concrete floor of the basement.

In another theory involving Kali there's something else like a dust but I simply can't recall it's use. When I find it again I'll post it

edit; I may be mistaken about the Kali reference OTH

 

[sissi]

In our house the wall in the back of the basement "limes", the cement sort of develops a whitish chalk. Not sure if this is the same as the Ramsey's floor or not?
Shoes? We certainly have covered the Hi-tecs, now we understand there was another set of boot prints, not mentioned to brand, and we can not forget the Sas shoe prints from the earliest reports. When asked ,Christine Griffith (sp) said she had owned a pair but had given them away. Did the Ramseys give things away as well? To a charitable group or to household help? Does this suggest there were three people involved, or that two sets of shoeprints mean nothing?
Can anyone point me to a description of how the cord appeared on the wrists?

 

[BlueCrab]

BTW, there was mention of some boards in the room that Burke is alleged to have been using for something he was building in there. I believe Patsy mentioned this to LE in one of her interviews while looking at photos and identifying things in the room. Are you aware of what he and his friend/s were building in that room? Patsy said they were always (frequently) in there working on that.

RedChief,

No. I don't remember anything like that.

Maybe you're referring to the photographs the cops found taken of JonBenet in the basement laundry room, which is located just a few steps from the door to the train room. Patsy says she didn't take the snapshots.

TRIP DEMUTH: "Is there any reason why there would be photographs of JonBenet located in the laundry room?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "No. Were there -- I mean, did somebody find them there?"

TRIP DEMUTH: "Would the boys play in there? Would John go down there?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "I mean anybody could, but I mean the boys could come down and play in the train room ..."

TOM HANEY: "If she was doing something really cutesy or something, would you run and get the camera, take one of her?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "No."

 

[RedChief]

Does this suggest there were three people involved, or that two sets of shoeprints mean nothing?

Can anyone point me to a description of how the cord appeared on the wrists?

There are several sources for how the cord appeared on the wrists: One is the coroner's report where he described it as being loosely tied around the right wrist. One is John's interview with LE where he said the wrists were crossed and tightly bound and he tried to untie the cord but couldn't. One is in DOI where he said there was 15.5 inches of slack cord between the wrists suggestive of a "snuff sex" scenario. One is in PMPT where it was reported that as John brought her into the foyer it was noticed that there was a cord dangling from the right wrist.

Incidentally, in the coroner's report, Meyer remarked that the tail end of the wrist ligature ended in a double-loop knot. I can see two loops in the photo. This would have been the end that had once (if ever) been tied around the left wrist. Why two loops for the left wrist but only one for the right (as seen in the photos)? If you take all these reports at face value you end up confused. The concensus seems to be that at one time both wrists were tied (but not tightly together) and that there was 15.5 inches of slack cord between the wrists--all of this when the child was found in the cellar. However, it's possible that this is not a fact, but an inference. Thomas says that the way the child was bound would not have restrained a live person.