WV - Sodder Family - 5 children, Christmas eve 1945 - #3

[daisydaisy]

Hello, all! Like many of you have said, I was intrigued by this story and got sucked into hours of reading all the posts. But, of course, it's a lot of info to take in, so hopefully I'm not repeating.

In regards to the picture (allegedly) of Louis sent to Mrs. Sodder...I get that she believed it was her son while other family members might not have been too sure. One thing that struck me about the picture is the shape of the eyebrows. Several people have commented on the children having thick eyebrows, but the shape is what stands out to me.

If you notice (from the younger pictures), both Louis' and Maurice's right eyebrows (on our left) hook down at the outside tip. Both of their left eyebrows are more "straight" across. The young man in the newer picture has the same feature. Does anyone else notice this?

 

[Kat]

I always wondered if anyone compared the two pictures (young Louis and alleged grown Louis) using the age progression and comparitive software? I wish someone would if they haven't.

 

[Ravenclaw]

I think that it was mentioned somewhere in these posts that age progression hasn't been done. I'm sure somebody on this site would know how to go about doing it! If cost would be an issue there are probably people who would be willing to give some money to it - I for one would.

 

[Satch]

This is a strange story and very sad case!

I think the mysterious phone, the strange laugh, the noise on the roof could likely indicate that the fire was started by an arsonist. The mysterious sightings of bones really seems unusual, and I find the actions of the fire chief to be bizarre. The questions I have is:

1.) Is it known where the fire started? Did it start downstairs first? If you go to The Doe Network, they have some good background on this case. There is a misprint that says, some people wonder if the children and their parents died in the fire. The parents survived, and four of the children as well. Five of the childrens' fates remain unknown.

2.) Is there anything that could be lifted from the site and analyzed for DNA, (a technology and science that was obviously not used in 1945,) to help determine what could have happened to the children?

Satch

 

[Satch]

Is it just a theory?

Or was there evidence at the time that Mr. Sodder's family and property had been threatened before the fire? I think there is some kind of cover-up here. The circumstances seem very organized and methodical. It just seems that someone knows something.

Satch

 

[Satch]

Here's some more information that adds mystery to this case:

1.) Why weren't the firetrucks dispatched until 8 hours later? Wouldn't that be considered negligence on the part of the fire department, even in 1945?

2.) It's hard to believe that one person or probably two at the most could abduct five children at once.

3.) Why wasn't the garage ladder in its proper place?

4.) What would be the motive for wanting to destroy the family property or take the children?

5.) If Mr. Sodder believed that his children did not die in the fire, why did he bulldoze the site and put flowers on it. This would indicate the recognition of a memorial service? Or did he not believe his children had perished until he saw what looked like a picture of Betty. In regard to this, his feelings changing over time?

One thing I think most agree on, was that this was NOT an accidental fire. No "faulty wiring" here as reported from the original investigation.

Satch

 

[Fukiyama]

Satch, have you had a chance to read all the main threads yet? Your questions are either definitively answered or had thorough discussion at some point along the way. If you haven't read the threads in their entirety, I recommend it.

 

[Satch]

Satch, have you had a chance to read all the main threads yet? Your questions are either definitively answered or had thorough discussion at some point along the way. If you haven't read the threads in their entirety, I recommend it.

Not all of them yet! LOL! But a lot of them!!!! There is so much information and resources here!!! I did actually go back and re-read that Mr. Sodder had a fight with an insurance agent before the fire. Learned about the inadequate Fire Department at the time. Could not find any explanation for the moving of the ladder.

Satch

 

[nitsirk]

After spending many hours reading this forum, I need to post a theory I haven't seen about how 5 children could be subdued. Maurice and Louis go outside to do their chores and are confronted by two men. Marian is already asleep but the three young girls go outside to see what is going on. With the two older boys already subdued, the two men now take the girls.

 

[CaliSuz]

Satch - it was documented that the fire started on the roof, supporting what Mrs. Sodder said about hearing a "rubber ball" type of sound on the roof just before the fire, and also supporting what an eyewitness said about seeing "balls of fire being thrown" onto the roof or toward the house.

Who was that eyewitness, by the way??? Was he/she ever officially questioned by law enforcement?

Also, what about Marian sleeping on the couch, did she not notice whether or not her siblings were still playing with their toys in the living room, or if they had already gone to the attic to bed? What did she hear, if anything? And, the surviving boys, John & George Jr. -- when they were awakened by their mother to get out of the house, didn't they notice whether or not their other 5 siblings were in their beds in the 'attic' where they all slept??? None of the articles I've seen addressed whether they were seen in their beds or not. SO many holes in the documented accounts.

Prejudice toward Italians was rampant in that part of WV during that time frame. Injustice, such as the lame so-called 'investigation' and misleading 'evidence' (cow's liver), was probably to be expected and was most likely the norm, not the exception.

:twocents: My personal opinion is that this family was the target of a hate crime, and those 5 kids went outside to see what was going on (the arsonist probably didn't expect any kids to be awake at the time), then the kids were shuffled off to parts unknown (with a stop at a motel in Charleston along the way). The kids were told the rest of the family died in the fire, then they were separated and sent off to other homes or orphanages, and encouraged to forget their past and their family names. There were LOTS of people who would be willing to cover up a crime like this in that era... like I said, prejudice and injustice....... JMHO.. thanks for reading.

 

[CaliSuz]

nitsirk --- that mostly agrees with my theory as well. The 'arsonists', as I call them, threaten the older boys and order them to keep the girls quiet and contained.

I feel like the abduction of those 5 kids was an unplanned consequence of the intended hate-crime of setting fire to the Sodder's house. The kids just happened to be awake. They dispersed the kids into orphanages, kind of like getting rid of evidence.

The answers to so many mysteries end up being so simple to start... then events escalate, complications happen (such as the 5 kids being unexpectedly awake), snowballing, and spinning out of control.

 

[Fukiyama]

I feel like the abduction of those 5 kids was an unplanned consequence of the intended hate-crime of setting fire to the Sodder's house. The kids just happened to be awake. They dispersed the kids into orphanages, kind of like getting rid of evidence.

I would be interested in your reasoning behind labeling it a hate crime.

 

[CaliSuz]

I would be interested in your reasoning behind labeling it a hate crime.

I had posted on a different thread, and didn't want to repeat myself, but... my reason for thinking that is because prejudice against Italians was very prevalent in parts of WV, especially during that era.

Of course it's just a theory, but I think it was a simple hate-crime gone horribly wrong. (As 'simple' as burning someone's house, on Christmas, could possibly be, that is.) (And by 'horribly wrong', I mean that those kids were up and awake and they had to figure out what to do with them, so they whisked them away.)

I don't know all the details about Mr. Sodder arguing with an insurance man just days before the fire, etc. -- there are lots of stories like those that I haven't read -- but with him being an Italian immigrant... would give some people reason to feel justified in doing something bad to him like burning his house down. Somebody had something against him -- maybe something petty, or maybe not -- but crimes fueled by prejudice definitely happened back then, more than we hear about.

 

[Teresa Larson]

I have posted on here several times over the years about the mafia, Italians and the coal miners. They did not get a long well back in those days. Mr Sodder could have refused to pay his dues to the mafia. I have always thought it was strange that mom Sodder allowed the kids to stay up later than she did. I do not believe that the children died in the fire either. It didn't burn hot enough to do that. BTW nobody ever messed with the Italian folks back then.

 

[Teresa Larson]

Here's some more information that adds mystery to this case:

1.) Why weren't the firetrucks dispatched until 8 hours later? Wouldn't that be considered negligence on the part of the fire department, even in 1945?

2.) It's hard to believe that one person or probably two at the most could abduct five children at once.

3.) Why wasn't the garage ladder in its proper place?

4.) What would be the motive for wanting to destroy the family property or take the children?

5.) If Mr. Sodder believed that his children did not die in the fire, why did he bulldoze the site and put flowers on it. This would indicate the recognition of a memorial service? Or did he not believe his children had perished until he saw what looked like a picture of Betty. In regard to this, his feelings changing over time?

One thing I think most agree on, was that this was NOT an accidental fire. No "faulty wiring" here as reported from the original investigation.

Satch

The fire trucks were dispatched but couldn't make it there due to inclement weather. The ladder was moved because of the guy who was stealing something off of the property. Read the entire thread It explains a lot about what you are wondering about.

 

[Fukiyama]

The fire trucks were dispatched but couldn't make it there due to inclement weather. The ladder was moved because of the guy who was stealing something off of the property. Read the entire thread It explains a lot about what you are wondering about.

That doesn't explain while the ladder was down an embankment. If the guy was stealing and needed the ladder, I think he would have left it where he used it. If others wanted to hide the ladder to keep it from being used to fight the fire, they would have thrown it down an embankment where it wouldn't be found until morning.

I really hope the family checks in one of these days and answers all my questions I posted before.

 

[CaliSuz]

... I have always thought it was strange that mom Sodder allowed the kids to stay up later than she did. ...

I think it's strange also. And as a mom, I don't understand not checking on the kids when she got up to find lights on, doors not locked, etc. Wouldn't she have gone upstairs to peek in on her kids, especially a 5-year old??? The sleeping arrangements of that whole night just baffle me.. unless the articles I read just don't explain it well. Why was Marion sleeping on the couch and why wasn't she interviewed more on whether or not she heard the kids go to bed, etc??

Another thing, I seriously believe that if I was one of the older brothers and saw my little sibling lying in bed, knowing I had to run out of a burning house, would I just "shake" him or her?? No, I wouldn't waste a second, I would snatch that kid up in my arms as fast as I could and drag them with me with all my might. So I have a hard time with his statement that he shook the kids in an attempt to wake them. I think he didn't see them.

 

[CaliSuz]

That doesn't explain while the ladder was down an embankment. If the guy was stealing and needed the ladder, I think he would have left it where he used it. If others wanted to hide the ladder to keep it from being used to fight the fire, they would have thrown it down an embankment where it wouldn't be found until morning. ...

I think the person who cut the phone line used the ladder to do so, then dumped the ladder down the embankment so it couldn't be used to escape the fire, nor could it be readily found to rescue anyone from the upstairs windows. CRUEL.

 

[mom2six]

I have posted on here several times over the years about the mafia, Italians and the coal miners. They did not get a long well back in those days. Mr Sodder could have refused to pay his dues to the mafia.

This is what I think the "insurance man" was all about. I think he was putting pressure on him for protection money, not traditional insurance at all.

 

[bambi_sue]

There's been discussion across the three threads about what, exactly, the weather was like that Christmas Eve. As far as I can tell, Fayetteville didn't (doesn't?) have a weather station, but nearby stations did collect data in 1945. The attached document is a report from the West Virginia Section of the Weather Bureau for December 1945.

I'm not sure what station is closest to Fayetteville, but temperatures across the state were cold that night, with the lowest in the "Southern Division" being -4. Charleston, what I think might be the nearest station - I'm not really familiar with West Virginia at all, had a minimum of 24. Precip across the southern division ranged from none to a trace to .16 inches.

The report does mention that December 1945 was West Virginia's sixth coldest month on record (though I'm not sure how far back the records go), and every weather station had below normal average temperatures.

Not sure if this helps anyone, but there ya go. Also, the report was retrieved from: http://www4.ncdc.noaa.gov/cgi-win/wwcgi.dll?wwDI~StnSrch~StnID~20021438