Mexico Mexico - David Hartley, 30, Lake Falcon, 30 Sept 2010 #2

[Kimberlyd125]

I didn't think so either, Linda, so I Googled it. http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2009/03/26/latest-seadoo-can-st.html The latest Seadoo can stop on a dime. It has a braking system.

Like you, this is one part of her story that doesn't so much bother me. She has been so inconsistent, and unfeeling on all the interviews she has done. Perhaps she is just normally a very cold person, and had nothing to do with her husband's death, but to me she just doesn't seem to be too bothered by the loss. She has changed up her story way too many times to me.

I highly doubt he was able to hit the brake after being shot in the back of the head, forehead, neck:waitasec:

Tuffy, in your researc on the latest SeaDoos, did it mention a safety feature that if his hands left the handles, it would stop or brake on it's own? I'm asking because I thought that was a feature. If that's the case, he would not have had to hit the brake after being shot in the back of the head.

 

[AutomaticAuttie]

I highly doubt he was able to hit the brake after being shot in the back of the head, forehead, neck:waitasec:

No, but if he was shot in the head killing him instantly, he would lose all motion. Which could have made his arms fall, forcing the emergency clip to come out. There is an emergency kill engine clip that is attached either to a bracelet worn by the driver or it's clipped on their life vest, in the event of falling off your jet ski would immediately stop. Or if the clip comes out it would do the same thing, and stop instantly.

 

[DEPUTYDAWG]

I ride Kawasaki Jetski's.

We do wear the wrist band that is a safety feature - if the rider has to ditch the jetski, the wrist band pulls out the key and the motor is killed. I think SeaDoos have the same feature.

Also re stopping on a dime. At least ours, you've got the throttle. If you take your finger off the throttle it just stops. Maybe not on a dime, but it sure doesn't go far. Of course we're taught NOT to do that (just take your finger off the throttle, because it will come to an "abrupt" stop), so I can't say I've personally done it or seen it done. I'd guess you'd stop in a matter of feet...versus cruising slowly to a stop like a car would.

 

[Tuffy]

Tuffy, in your researc on the latest SeaDoos, did it mention a safety feature that if his hands left the handles, it would stop or brake on it's own? I'm asking because I thought that was a feature. If that's the case, he would not have had to hit the brake after being shot in the back of the head.

No, it's not an automatic feature. You can hit the brakes if a sudden stop is called for. A lever on the left handlebar cuts engine power, deploys a reverse gate and shifts the PWC into neutral and then into reverse if and when throttle is applied.

 

[AutomaticAuttie]

Do we know what exact type of watercraft they have?

 

[AutomaticAuttie]

I didn't think so either, Linda, so I Googled it. http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2009/03/26/latest-seadoo-can-st.html The latest Seadoo can stop on a dime. It has a braking system.

Like you, this is one part of her story that doesn't so much bother me. She has been so inconsistent, and unfeeling on all the interviews she has done. Perhaps she is just normally a very cold person, and had nothing to do with her husband's death, but to me she just doesn't seem to be too bothered by the loss. She has changed up her story way too many times to me.

How has she changed her story? Would you mind providing some links to the claim of her being inconsistent. Thanks!

 

[Tuffy]

How has she changed her story? Would you mind providing some links to the claim of her being inconsistent. Thanks!

Hi AutomaticAuttie. I'm going to need a little time to link the interviews, but off the top of my head...

She states in the interview with Greta that she and David had not seen any other boats that day from the time they launched until they were suddenly shot at. She says they were shot at after they took their pictures, and were "racing" back to the US side. This was after Greta specifically asked her if they had seen the pirates previously that day.

In another interview on JVM she says: Well, after we had taken the pictures at the church, we were on our way out when we saw a boat outside of this little brush area that was underwater.

When we were coming out, we saw them. They just waved at us, like we were -- you know, friendly, very friendly wave. We were on our way -- so we just continued, took a few more pictures, continued out. And we were, I don`t know, maybe halfway to the U.S. I can`t really give you a great idea of where exactly.

This is the link to the Greta interview:

http://gretawire.blogs.foxnews.com/tiffany-hartley-on-the-record/

I'll post more as I can get it together.

 

[alwaysonmymind]

I ride Kawasaki Jetski's.

We do wear the wrist band that is a safety feature - if the rider has to ditch the jetski, the wrist band pulls out the key and the motor is killed. I think SeaDoos have the same feature.

Also re stopping on a dime. At least ours, you've got the throttle. If you take your finger off the throttle it just stops. Maybe not on a dime, but it sure doesn't go far. Of course we're taught NOT to do that (just take your finger off the throttle, because it will come to an "abrupt" stop), so I can't say I've personally done it or seen it done. I'd guess you'd stop in a matter of feet...versus cruising slowly to a stop like a car would.

Thanks for posting this.

It is such an abrupt stop, someone has invented a "rapid deceleration warning light" to be used on personal watercraft. Because it's dangerous to other driver/operators nearby.

The drag of the water causes the abrupt stop. Combine this with an unconscious or already deceased rider whose body is still going in the same forward direction. He's going off in a hurry.

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20090040073

 

[AutomaticAuttie]

Hi AutomaticAuttie. I'm going to need a little time to link the interviews, but off the top of my head...

She states in the interview with Greta that she and David had not seen any other boats that day from the time they launched until they were suddenly shot at. She says they were shot at after they took their pictures, and were "racing" back to the US side. This was after Greta specifically asked her if they had seen the pirates previously that day.


Here is what she said......
TIFFANY HARTLEY, WIFE OF MISSING JET SKIER: David and I were on the Mexico side taking pictures. And we were heading back. Just had some boats come after us and started chasing us and started shooting at us. I had several bullets going over me and hitting behind me. And I looked back and David was hit.
VAN SUSTEREN: Had you seen them before the encounter?
TIFFANY HARTLEY: No. We haven't seen any boats from the time that we had launched to the time that we were at the church.

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/on-th...er-recalls-alleged-attack-texas-mexico-border


In another interview on JVM she says: Well, after we had taken the pictures at the church, we were on our way out when we saw a boat outside of this little brush area that was underwater.



When we were coming out, we saw them. They just waved at us, like we were -- you know, friendly, very friendly wave. We were on our way -- so we just continued, took a few more pictures, continued out. And we were, I don`t know, maybe halfway to the U.S. I can`t really give you a great idea of where exactly.


TIFFANY HARTLEY, WIDOWED: Well, after we had taken the pictures at the church, we were on our way out when we saw a boat outside of this little brush area that was underwater.

When we were coming out, we saw them. They just waved at us, like we were -- you know, friendly, very friendly wave. We were on our way -- so we just continued, took a few more pictures, continued out. And we were, I don`t know, maybe halfway to the U.S. I can`t really give you a great idea of where exactly.

But we saw three boats coming towards us, and as soon as they started coming towards us, we just kind of started leaving. We passed them, and then they started chasing us. And once they started chasing us, they started shooting, and I had seen two shots next to me on my left. And that`s when I looked back to check on David, and that`s when I saw that he had been thrown off and into the water facedown.



Greta interview:

http://gretawire.blogs.foxnews.com/tiffany-hartley-on-the-record/

I'll post more as I can get it together.

So, could David not spot them first? Motion for Tiffany, like let's go. Then as they are heading out the pirates spot them and, the pirates motion with a wave, like come here? At that time, TH and DH are in motion riding away, pass them, and then they begin shooting?

 

[Joe Friday]

It is possible that David's jetski could have gone into a spin when he was shot and he was then then thrown from the jetski.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_tToezQmwA[/ame]

I ride Kawasaki Jetski's.

We do wear the wrist band that is a safety feature - if the rider has to ditch the jetski, the wrist band pulls out the key and the motor is killed. I think SeaDoos have the same feature.

Also re stopping on a dime. At least ours, you've got the throttle. If you take your finger off the throttle it just stops. Maybe not on a dime, but it sure doesn't go far. Of course we're taught NOT to do that (just take your finger off the throttle, because it will come to an "abrupt" stop), so I can't say I've personally done it or seen it done. I'd guess you'd stop in a matter of feet...versus cruising slowly to a stop like a car would.

BBM

As you can see in this video a jet ski with or without a brake does not come to an immediate or abrupt stop within a matter of feet. It is unlikely that a rider would be thrown off a jetski from just letting go of the throttle say from being shot, or even from just applying the brake. And IMO it would be impossible for a person shot in the head to pull this lever to apply the brake. In the video they compare a jetski with the braking system to a jetski without the braking system, you can see a jetski without the braking system travels a considerable distance once the throttle is released and would not produce the deceleration G-force required to throw a rider over the handle bars.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHK9jJ-go8k[/ame]

Do we know what exact type of watercraft they have?

And as you can see in this news video at about 1:00 the Hartley's had Seadoo watercraft, but the model they have I do not think has the braking option. The braking option was not introduced until the 2010 models came out IIRC. I haven't found the dashboard video that would show David's jetski to compare it with the one shown in the video to determine if the jetski's were identical or not. If someone has the link to the LE dashboard video please post it.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6935245n&tag=related;photovideo

 

[hollyblue]

Wasn't David's father who was interviewed. So he was talking about his son.

Hartley's family has not lost hope despite no official developments

Young who says he is not familiar with the dynamics of the area, said he is having a tough time keeping up with the alleged developments in the case. Several names of suspects have surfaced but none have led to an arrest or a body.

Taken from post #335. [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5700539&postcount=335"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - David Hartley - Pirates shoot US man in Mexican waters #2[/ame]

 

[hollyblue]

Do we know what exact type of watercraft they have?

Cannot post the link, because it is from another forum, but this was the model FWIW.

http://en-us.sea-doo.com/showroom/watercraft/overview/RXT-X-aS-260.aspx

 

[AutomaticAuttie]

Cannot post the link, because it is from another forum, but this was the model FWIW.

http://en-us.sea-doo.com/showroom/watercraft/overview/RXT-X-aS-260.aspx

Thanks I got it. Looks to be Sea Doo Bombardier RXP, must guess it's a 2004 or so.

 

[hollyblue]

Thanks I got it. Looks to be Sea Doo Bombardier RXP, must guess it's a 2004 or so.

AA I know nothing about jet skis, but the poster did say it was a new RXT....if that makes any difference... HTH.

 

[hollyblue]

TH's interview w/ Anderson Cooper last night:

http://cnn.com/video/?/video/crime/2010/10/19/ac.pirate.lake.latest.cnn

 

[DEPUTYDAWG]

Copied from Joe Friday's post above,

Snipped for space.

As you can see in this video a jet ski with or without a brake does not come to an immediate or abrupt stop within a matter of feet. It is unlikely that a rider would be thrown off a jetski from just letting go of the throttle say from being shot, or even from just applying the brake. And IMO it would be impossible for a person shot in the head to pull this lever to apply the brake. In the video they compare a jetski with the braking system to a jetski without the braking system, you can see a jetski without the braking system travels a considerable distance once the throttle is released and would not produce the deceleration G-force required to throw a rider over the handle bars.

--------

Thank you, that was interesting to see the video. I mentioned I've never witnessed or actually even tried to just let off the throttle, as it's really a bad thing to do. But I CAN say that even going 5mph when we're getting out of the no wake areas, if we let off the throttle then, it's an abrupt stop. That's just personal experience. It noses down and just sinks (comes off the plane it was skimming the water on, down to it's normal position in the water...if that makes sense.) We've probably done pretty quick stops a few mph faster, and again, it doesn't just "cruise" like a car would. Obviously, I'm not an engineer or expert of forward propulsion, etc....but I'm actually going to question that video showing such a long time for that one PWC to stop. Maybe it was just exaggerated for their sales ad? (Since they were promoting the model that did have the braking feature.) Just my personal experience in being around and riding/driving jetskis (but caveat: not a SeaDoo brand.)

Thanks again for the video, it was interesting to see in the context of this situation.

 

[IWannaKnow]

My research shows that model in that color was only available in 2005. This is the spec sheet and I do not see any mention of a brake anywhere, but a poster upthread mentioned that they only became available this year IIRC.

Note: This is the spec sheet for the '05 model, not the new model.
http://en-ca.sea-doo.com/Archives/archives_2005/en-ca/Watercrafts/2005/Musclecraft/RXT/Specs.htm

It is a 215 hp engine and it does have a safety lanyard:

Floating safety lanyard Stops engine in manual and emergency situations.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

My understanding is that the safety key thingie that kills the engine in the event of an emergency is required to restart the jet ski. Does anyone know if this is correct?

 

[laytonian]

Polygraph tests are a joke in my opinion! They have little credibility among scientists, if any and are considered to be "junk science". There is NO way I would ever take a polygraph, even if I was 100% innocent!

I would. And so did Marc Klaas, when LE immediately put him at the top of the suspect list, when Polly disappeared. In fact, Klaas demanded a poly.

He passed (as he knew he would)....and investigators moved on.

Since it can't be used in court, big deal.

 

[laytonian]

My understanding is that the safety key thingie that kills the engine in the event of an emergency is required to restart the jet ski. Does anyone know if this is correct?

Wouldn't it have to be the same key? Imagine fiddling around with two keys.

So the key comes out...and where is it?

In this case, would it be with David Hartley?
"Pirates" would have to tow a jet ski away, moving slowly, if they had no key.
Planning ahead, bringing a tow rope?

What if DH was never on the lake in the first place, or never came back from the other side?