Is the fact that Terri hasn't been arrested indicative of lack of evidence?

[mmmagique]

Parents are always invited to elementary school talent shows, in my experience. They are the target audience. And MOST parents love to see 7 yr olds perform onstage. So it is unusual imo that she would skip it, especially since she had no big alternative plans.

What I found especially unusual was that Desiree and Kaine seemed not to have known about this. As if the information wasn't passed onto them by the "stay at home parent."

Why wouldn't they have been told? Perhaps because she knew he wouldn't be there? I just can't seem to come up with an innocent explanation.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Parents are always invited to elementary school talent shows, in my experience. They are the target audience. And MOST parents love to see 7 yr olds perform onstage. So it is unusual imo that she would skip it, especially since she had no big alternative plans.

Maybe there are geographical differences going on here.

In my area, some school talent shows include parents, some are for the students only. My mother volunteered for her local elementary school for 34 years and says that they decided long ago that school hours talent shows would be for students only because it was so chaotic with parents that half the day would be lost. They had a couple talent shows for students only during the year, generally the day before Thanksgiving break, the day before winter break and the day before spring break, when most of the kids weren't concentrating anyway.

Then, at the end of the year, they had an evening talent show where parents were invited and it was a much bigger deal.

My two nephews have gone to both private and public schools and the same thing is true of the schools they attended. Sometimes talent shows were for students only, sometimes parents were invited.

In the much, much more rural area I live in, the nearest town (all of about 900 residents), the school talent show is a major social occasion and just about everyone goes, whether or not they have a student at the school or not. We all support the school because a local school is one of the things that keeps a town alive.

In the city my mother and sister live in, people coming to watch the talent show where parents were invited who did not have some connection to a pupil at the school would be regarded with some suspicion. People not connected to a child at that school just don't drop in to watch the talent show.

 

[Trident]

What I found especially unusual was that Desiree and Kaine seemed not to have known about this. As if the information wasn't passed onto them by the "stay at home parent."

Why wouldn't they have been told? Perhaps because she knew he wouldn't be there? I just can't seem to come up with an innocent explanation.

Is there a link to the fact that they didn't know/hadn't been told? I don't know of any hard, fast evidence, but maybe I missed it. If there is a link, maybe you could post it?

Thanks.

 

[cluciano63]

With so many cases, LE has their theory and even their suspect, named or not, and yet cannot make an arrest. We've seen it in countless cases, Drew Peterson is one example. I am watching Nancy Grace now, about Tracy Ocasio; LE has their suspect, the last person to be with her, her car was found near his home the next day, his stories changed, her phone pinged near his home, and he is currently facing charges of attempted murder of another young woman who was able to get away. But they cannot find Tracy and cannot find any physical evidence, so he is not charged in her case, going on 3 years. And a case they covered earlier this week, Rachel Mellon; LE is certain her stepfather is the culprit, Rachel's diary indicates abuse by him, he was the last to see her, but she has not been found and he has not been charged, in 15 years.

So it is not as easy as putting pieces of circumstantial evidence together, as many have said with Terri. LE needs to have something more, especially if they don't find Kyron. I seriously doubt Terri wrote anything specifically incriminating after the crime; she may have written things that showed possible motive beforehand, as Desiree says. She was not alone when she last saw him, as far as in a home or in a car, as in many cases, she was in a place with (literally) hundreds of people. I think it will require some real physical evidence, a confession and finding Kyron, to build a case.

I hope they can find Kyron. No matter who is guilty, without a confession or a crime scene, it is going to be tough enough even if they do.

Unless these other LEA's in the cases I mentioned (and others like Haleigh Cummings) are just too tentative and MCSO will be more aggressive.

 

[ThoughtFox]

One thing that has always bothered me is that she did not go to his talent show that afternoon. Am I remembering correctly that Kyron was supposed to take part in the school Talnet Show that day?
Because if so, it is very strange she did not go.

Actually people talked about it at length in early days.

The trouble is, TH said her baby wasn't feeling well. For most of us that would be a good reason to miss a Talent Show, since after all she made it to the Science Fair.

The reason people don't talk about it much (I think) is because it's pretty much irrelevant in light of all the other weird stuff.

She could have missed the talent show and still picked up Kyron and his science fair project after school.

The talent show is almost like a red herring in the middle of the day - it's a little strange that she didn't go. What was she doing during the time of the Science Fair? Nobody knows, but we know that Kyron wasn't there.

Still, for me, TH not going to pick Kyron up in the truck is much stranger, as well as the fact that the science fair projects were supposed to be picked up that day. Kaine and Terri were both at home that afternoon, but Terri said nothing about needing to go pick up Kyron as far as we know. Kaine went to wait for the bus instead. It makes no sense.

 

[ThoughtFox]

Parents are always invited to elementary school talent shows, in my experience. They are the target audience. And MOST parents love to see 7 yr olds perform onstage. So it is unusual imo that she would skip it, especially since she had no big alternative plans.

Also you are making the assumption that she cared.

Desiree keeps saying that TH hated Kyron and wrote that down in emails, and TH has never denied it.

So I think she wasn't some adoring mother who wanted to see Kyron in a talent show - she didn't care. She didn't love him, so why would she love seeing him on stage?

:twocents:

Also, I think she skipped it because she knew he wasn't there. After making a getaway that morning, she wasn't going to go back that day for any reason.

 

[cluciano63]

I can't understand Kaine not knowing about the talent show, if Kyron was really going to be in it. He could have attended easily enough, it seems, as he said he was home most days anyway. I have my doubts if Kyron was really to be in it. He would have told his dad, wouldn't he, even if TH did not?

 

[browneyedgirl]

what i found especially unusual was that desiree and kaine seemed not to have known about this. As if the information wasn't passed onto them by the "stay at home parent."

why wouldn't they have been told? Perhaps because she knew he wouldn't be there? I just can't seem to come up with an innocent explanation.

i completely agree with you, however i keep coming up with the question of why wouldnt kyron mention to his mom and dad even if th kept the info quiet.

I always wondered if it pointed to premeditation on her part...but that nagging little question is what i cannot answer....

Perhaps someone else would offer an theory?

 

[cluciano63]

But why wouldn't Kyron talk about it? (the talent show) and sorry if this is OT.

 

[DreamyEye]

One thing that has always bothered me is that she did not go to his talent show that afternoon. Am I remembering correctly that Kyron was supposed to take part in the school Talnet Show that day?
Because if so, it is very strange she did not go.

There is an old thread that's devoted to the talent show.

On that thread the claim is that Kyron did not have a starring role in the talent show, but had agreed to help a friend in his performance. The gist of the thing was that the talent show was not a big deal to Kyron--he was doing it as a favor to the other kid. It sounded as though he had not played this up to Kaine or Terri, and the fact that none of the parents were going to attend didn't seem to be a big deal.

I would also comment that if Terri really was struggling with a sick, fussy baby that day, I would not expect her to go to the school twice in one day. (And I am no Terri defender ... but would sympathize with the demands on any parent in that situation.)

What I have always wondered about is this: Did Kyron talk to the other kid and say "sorry, but I won't be able to help you with the skit. Get someone else." OR, did the other kid go on stage expecting Kyron to be there and then end up not able to do his planned performance? It seems to me that this would be a very key piece of information. And yet I've never seen it addressed anywhere.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I still don't understand why the many inconsistencies in Terri's behavior doesn't sound an alarm. Terri drove her flashy Red Squirrel to do errands & whatever. This particular day she REQUESTED the white truck in order to bring back Kyron's Project after school & pick up Kyron. She does neither !!! No Kyron, no project. She is expecting them both on the BUS????
I would have found that Hinky...but that's just me:banghead::banghead: However she does have time to take a photo of Kyron beside his project that day & post it on the internet to show he was @ school for how long? The project & Kyron never make it home,because they were not important for the use of the truck.( More for dumping bodies )

Without knowing how often TMH requested the use of the white truck I think it's impossible for me to judge how unusual it was.

If she had been requesting the use of the white truck 1-3 times per week since she got the red Mustang, then requesting the truck for the day Kyron disappeared wasn't that unusual.

If she requested the use of the truck once every three months, then yeah, it was unusual and, therefore, suspicious.

Likewise with not bringing the science project home. Was failing to do a planned task something that only happened once every other month? Then yeah, that was unusual and therefore suspicious.

But if she failed to do some planned task 3 or 4 times a week, then failing to bring the science project home wasn't so unusual.

Did her reliability vary with when she had BabyK with her?

That is part of what is so frustrating with this case; so much of what is publicly known has no context to place it in, so it is impossible to judge how suspicious any individual piece of information is.

 

[stmarysmead]

Without knowing how often TMH requested the use of the white truck I think it's impossible for me to judge how unusual it was.

If she had been requesting the use of the white truck 1-3 times per week since she got the red Mustang, then requesting the truck for the day Kyron disappeared wasn't that unusual.

If she requested the use of the truck once every three months, then yeah, it was unusual and, therefore, suspicious.

Likewise with not bringing the science project home. Was failing to do a planned task something that only happened once every other month? Then yeah, that was unusual and therefore suspicious.

But if she failed to do some planned task 3 or 4 times a week, then failing to bring the science project home wasn't so unusual.

Did her reliability vary with when she had BabyK with her?

That is part of what is so frustrating with this case; so much of what is publicly known has no context to place it in, so it is impossible to judge how suspicious any individual piece of information is.

Kaine knows the answers to those questions. He believes Terri is responsible.

Desiree, through Kaine.also knows the answers to those questions. No "mystery" what she thinks.

So we see no "frustration"h from those closest to this tragedy. Only "we" ..."cannot judge".... if we ignore what that the people WHO KNOW THOSE ANSWERS...keep telling us.

One might not know how to operate a car because he's never done it. And I suppose if someone who drives everyday tries to tell that individual...that person can still reject their answers because they've never put a key in an ignition themselves.

People who know the answers are confidant that Terri is the person who hurt or killed their son.

 

[Chablis]

People who know the answers are confidant that Terri is the person who hurt or killed their son.

And lets not pretend that while all this is going on, Terri has been wrapping presents for Kyron awareness and stuff like that, thats not what we hear from Terri, we are so lucky to get transcripts of her sexting while on the family couch to Kaines friend, all while her buddy Dedee is walking around halfway nude in the home like this was some girls slumber party. Maybe she was prepping for prison, I really don't know.

I think Terri is hoping shes been free this long because shes so smart, but I think shes free, but heavily monitored because the state has to bring a solid case to really make sure there is no chance she walks free. Maybe some are hoping she grows a conscience, but thats never going to happen.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Kaine knows the answers to those questions. He believes Terri is responsible.

Desiree, through Kaine.also knows the answers to those questions. No "mystery" what she thinks.

So we see no "frustration"h from those closest to this tragedy. Only "we" ..."cannot judge".... if we ignore what that the people WHO KNOW THOSE ANSWERS...keep telling us.

One might not know how to operate a car because he's never done it. And I suppose if someone who drives everyday tries to tell that individual...that person can still reject their answers because they've never put a key in an ignition themselves.

People who know the answers are confidant that Terri is the person who hurt or killed their son.

There are cases, however, where even those closest to the situation suspect the wrong person.

For instance, in the Amber Dubois case, her stepfather, Dave Cave, was a suspect. He had no strong alibi for most of the day; he decided to buy his wife (Amber's mother) some flowers, brought them to her at work and hung around for almost an hour.

His wife considered this highly unusual behaviour; clearly, she would be in a position to know. That atypical loving gesture became just one of the reasons why Amber's mother began to suspect Dave Cave of being responsible for Amber's disappearance. It just seemed so hinky, why would he do something different (for him) on the very day Amber disappeared?

It soon seemed like there were so many things he'd done that day that seemed suspicious.

And then he took and apparently failed 8 (eight) polygraphs.

His wife left him, believing he had killed his stepdaughter.

Finally, the real perpetrator (John Gardner) unexpectedly confessed and told LE where to find Amber's remains.

Without context, I have no way to know how accurately KH's and DY's judgment of people has been in the past, which would serve as an indication of how accurate their judgment is in this case.

I think it is more likely than not that KH, DY and LE are correct and TMH is responsible. Based on the publicly known evidence, though were I on the jury I definitely could not vote to convict.

That's why I want to know more.

 

[Billylee]

There are cases, however, where even those closest to the situation suspect the wrong person.

For instance, in the Amber Dubois case, her stepfather, Dave Cave, was a suspect. He had no strong alibi for most of the day; he decided to buy his wife (Amber's mother) some flowers, brought them to her at work and hung around for almost an hour.

His wife considered this highly unusual behaviour; clearly, she would be in a position to know. That atypical loving gesture became just one of the reasons why Amber's mother began to suspect Dave Cave of being responsible for Amber's disappearance. It just seemed so hinky, why would he do something different (for him) on the very day Amber disappeared?

It soon seemed like there were so many things he'd done that day that seemed suspicious.

And then he took and apparently failed 8 (eight) polygraphs.

His wife left him, believing he had killed his stepdaughter.

Finally, the real perpetrator (John Gardner) unexpectedly confessed and told LE where to find Amber's remains.

Without context, I have no way to know how accurately KH's and DY's judgment of people has been in the past, which would serve as an indication of how accurate their judgment is in this case.

I think it is more likely than not that KH, DY and LE are correct and TMH is responsible. Based on the publicly known evidence, though were I on the jury I definitely could not vote to convict.

That's why I want to know more.

I seriously doubt that Kaine Horman, or Desiree and Tony Young have had any more evidence shown to them, than has been shown to the Grand Jury, but still not even an indictment.

I don't know what this overwhelming evidence is that Desiree has, but I think it's only overwhelming to her, a mother who cannot find her son and who has hated Terri Horman since she was pregnant with that son. We haven't heard Kaine say there was "overwhelming" evidence, just Desiree and as far as Tony goes, there is this:


http://www.king5.com/home/Kyron-Hor...doubt-behind-boys-disappearance-98509699.html

Young recalled meeting at the Horman's home near Skyline Elementary within hours of Kyron's disappearance. He'd already been told by the FBI and Multnomah County sheriff's detectives that he would not be given inside information about the case.


If there was a law against suspicious, odd behavior, yes Terri would be in jail, but there is not. IMO there is no overwhelming evidence, and obviously whatever LE does have, isn't enough to arrest anyone.

 

[cluciano63]

I agree, Billie, that Desiree's overwhelming evidence does not meet the standard needed by LE. I am sure she is absolutely positive that TH is reponsible and she may well be right. Every little thing she hears, remembers or learns about TH adds to her evidence.

But I do think it is possible she was told that they had, for instance, managed to retrieve more specific ping data and that the search(es) in January would almost certainly give them what they needed. The problem is, even if they prove where TH was down to the square foot on 6/4, it doesn't help unless evidence is right there too.

 

[Counting on Justice]

I don't believe that because TH is still a member of society as we know it, is indicative of a lack of evidence. I believe that LE is ensuring that their case is a strong one. I know that we may not have all the cards that LE has in their deck, but I think that LE is crossing their "t's" and dotting their "i's".

It seems like it is taking forever, but as a lawyer once told me, "The wheels of justice may grind slow, but they do grind". This appears to be the case here. That means that when justice does get a hold of TH, it will hurt.

 

[pinktoes]

Is the fact that Terri hasn't been arrested indicative of lack of evidence?
Probably so. She's too disorganized to pull this off. And certainly didn't act in her own best interests during the early phase of the investigation. She's a nitwit. I think we've got one of 3 things:

1) Terri was framed by someone who was furious at her (possibly her former landscaper) and who knew she'd be easy to frame because of her mouthing off all over the place about everything. He, being a competent criminal, got someone else to remove Ky from the school and dispose of him (possibly commiting a sex crime against him prior to his murder)

2) A stranger or near-stranger to Ky, an organized serial sexual predator, developed some familiarity with the school and took advantage of this opportunity to disappear a child. His sickness includes the thrill of brazenly walking through those hallways, seen by other people, on a day when there were other visitors that lots of people wouldn't know. He left no electronic or physical evidence. FBI might eventually find some suspects, perhaps even in another state.

3) The perp's identity is known to a witness who gave evidence in another case(s) in return for his being deported without being arrested/tried for his own crimes. He was likely in business with the perp, or otherwise related to him. Part of the bargain made with him for the "bigger crime" he informed on (and was probably himself involved in) was that he would not be required to rat out Ky's disappearer. In federal LE there is an hierarchy and unfortunately one missing child was at the bottom. It happens. We'll never know about it. MCSO and the FBI are on their own in terms of evidence for Ky's case. (Alternatively, the agency that made the deal with the "rat" didn't realize that he had evidence on Ky's disappearer, but he did.)

The people involved in this were too clever to leave electronic evidence, or they knew they'd be long gone before it was found. The window of opportunity is closed; too much time has passed for gumshoe work that might've helped ID this creep.

Beejay

 

[gwenabob]

Is the fact that Terri hasn't been arrested indicative of lack of evidence?
Probably so. She's too disorganized to pull this off. And certainly didn't act in her own best interests during the early phase of the investigation. She's a nitwit. I think we've got one of 3 things:

1) Terri was framed by someone who was furious at her (possibly her former landscaper) and who knew she'd be easy to frame because of her mouthing off all over the place about everything. He, being a competent criminal, got someone else to remove Ky from the school and dispose of him (possibly commiting a sex crime against him prior to his murder)

bbm
This is quite an accusation. Can you give any supporting links or credible information to support that the landscaper is a "competent criminal" or that he would sexually abuse a child? Because I have not seen anything at all to indicate this. Thanks.

 

[pinktoes]

bbm
This is quite an accusation. Can you give any supporting links or credible information to support that the landscaper is a "competent criminal" or that he would sexually abuse a child? Because I have not seen anything at all to indicate this. Thanks.

Simply conjecture. A theory. Statistically, when a non-family member abducts a child there is most often a sexual attack. Also, I didn't mean to say that the landscaper would have committed that part of the crime; I meant the person who did the actual abduction. Since the landscaper also worked at Skyline K8, I figure if it was him, he was too clever to walk off with Ky personally.

Just all MOO. Possibly to stimulate further thinking.