Murder 1 or a Lesser Included Offense?

[LolaMoon08]

Back in the days after Caylee was found, I did ponder that it was an accidental killing. My reasoning? Because there was the heart shaped sticker on the duct tape. As if ICA tried to make it look like a kidnapping, but OTOH felt so bad about it that she put the heart there to make herself "feel better".

The heart has since bothered me, as I can't figure out the meaning or understanding behind it. That's my only reasoning to apply an accident/coverup.

However, I think it's too late for the defense to backtrack and go with this theory now. What is their theory anyway!

MOO

Mel

The heart-shaped sticker has always bothered me too, but wasn't it destroyed? I don't think a jury is going to hear about it?

You know, I hope that Casey is convicted of First Degree Murder because I believe that she intentionally murdered Caylee. Not a day that has passed since Caylee has been gone, has Casey shown any kind of remorse for what happened... even if it were an accident, you would think she would feel horrible about it? How long can ugly coping last? Really?

 

[Melanie]

The heart-shaped sticker has always bothered me too, but wasn't it destroyed? I don't think a jury is going to hear about it?

You know, I hope that Casey is convicted of First Degree Murder because I believe that she intentionally murdered Caylee. Not a day that has passed since Caylee has been gone, has Casey shown any kind of remorse for what happened... even if it were an accident, you would think she would feel horrible about it? How long can ugly coping last? Really?

Hi Lola,

Yes the outline of the heart shaped sticker was destroyed.

"Any outline was obliterated in the fingerprint-testing process," Pipitone read from a report that station had obtained before its official release.

I do remember seeing the adhesive residue in many media outlets at the time.

I too, am suprised that ICA hasn't lost it in the last couple of years. Then again, Gabriel Johnson's mom sits stoic in her jail cell as well. I don't understand women who murder their children, and am glad my heart never will.

Mel

 

[lauriej]

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/23545129/detail.html
----State of Florida----May 13/2010----Notice of Agggravating Factors---

"The State of Florida may argue the application of the following aggravating circumstances at the trial of this matter".

" Florida Statute 921.141 (5) : d, h, i, l and m. "

http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/FileStores/Web/Statutes/FS08/CH0921/Section_0921.141.HTM
-----------Florida Statute 921.141 (5) -------

(d) The capital felony was committed while the defendant was engaged, or was an accomplice, in the commission of, or an attempt to commit, or flight after committing or attempting to commit, any: robbery; sexual battery; aggravated child abuse; abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult resulting in great bodily harm, permanent disability, or permanent disfigurement; arson; burglary; kidnapping; aircraft piracy; or unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb.

h) The capital felony was especially heinous, atrocious, or cruel.

(i) The capital felony was a homicide and was committed in a cold, calculated, and premeditated manner without any pretense of moral or legal justification.

(l) The victim of the capital felony was a person less than 12 years of age.

(m) The victim of the capital felony was particularly vulnerable due to advanced age or disability, or because the defendant stood in a position of familial or custodial authority over the victim.



---------article from above post:

http://www.wesh.com/r/23488034/detail.html
--Prosecution Outlines Reasons For Death Penalty--

"In his response, state prosecutor Jeff Ashton said nine of the 15 circumstances clearly do not apply to Casey. He then went on to point out four that he said clearly apply to the case.

There are two other aggravating circumstances the state may or may not try to prove. One of them is that the defendant benefited financially from the victim's death. The other is that the alleged slaying was especially heinous, atrocious or cruel."

( actually no----ashton lists 5 in his response.)

( the 'heinous, atrocious and cruel" IS included in the state's response already..)

( and --ashton states Nowhere that they may use the "benefited financially"...)

 

[Just Jayla]

The heart-shaped sticker has always bothered me too, but wasn't it destroyed? I don't think a jury is going to hear about it?

You know, I hope that Casey is convicted of First Degree Murder because I believe that she intentionally murdered Caylee. Not a day that has passed since Caylee has been gone, has Casey shown any kind of remorse for what happened... even if it were an accident, you would think she would feel horrible about it? How long can ugly coping last? Really?

The jury will hear most of what we have heard and read.

Why would their opinion be any different than yours, or mine, or the many people that voted on the WFTV poll-taken before a lot of the evidence was revealed-that KC should be convicted of murder?

What I want to know from RH, and I have to check back in the legal thread to see if he has answered, is if he bases his prediction not on what their opinions will be, rather what they will be instructed to let be their guide.

Their opinions and what they are permitted by instruction to acknowledge and debate may be two vastly different things.

 

[LolaMoon08]

The jury will hear most of what we have heard and read.

Why would their opinion be any different than yours, or mine, or the many people that voted on the WFTV poll-taken before a lot of the evidence was revealed-that KC should be convicted of murder?

What I want to know from RH, and I have to check back in the legal thread to see if he has answered, is if he bases his prediction not on what their opinions will be, rather what they will be instructed to let be their guide.

Their opinions and what they are permitted by instruction to acknowledge and debate may be two vastly different things.

BBM - I hope that their opinions do not differ too far from the majority here, but I don't know? We've had three years to go through what has been released, we have amazing people on this forum who have given their professional opinion on the forensic evidence released, the plant and root growth, and legal aspects of the case.

The jury is going to have 8 weeks (I think more with the way JB and CM made those hearings drag out) and they are going to listen to both sides. We don't know how effective the defenses expert witnesses are going to be to a jury?

I really do think that Casey will be convicted of First Degree Murder and I think she has as good a chance as any to get the DP. I'm just scared of that little chance that something happens and the jury doesn't see it the way we see it?

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

I believe ICA will be convicted of 1st degree murder...the only thing that would bother the jury is no COD can be determined. So I doubt they would recommend a death sentence...even as they hear of the choloroform/duct tape...

Her alluding/evading her parents for 31 days will go against her and show consciousness of guilt.

The smell of death eminating from the pontiac which I bet still reeks today..where Caylee allegedly laid for 2.6 days...besides the cadaver dogs hitting in the A's backyard...

All over her statements, she states, ZFG was the last one SHE saw with Caylee, yet she doesn't exist.

Her behavior will come back to bit her, the partying will show she had no concern, care that Caylee wasn't in her care...Not one of her close circle of friends had any idea Caylee was allegedly missing. They were all in shock. She spent those 31 days with friends and never once shown any difference in her demeanor while Caylee was not in her care. It will go against her and again, consciousness of guilt shines through..

That duct tape found on precious Caylee, will be the final nail in their thought process...who would do that to a precious 2 y/o...

She's shown no remorse, she's cold and callous, it's all about Caylee when they get a gander at those jailhouse visits with her parents and brother...The jury will see what we see, a cold, calculating young mother, who wanted her freedom, held a jealous heart for her parents loved Caylee more than they loved her. RG will also tell why their engagement was broken off..

CA to ICA...Did Lee tell you how much Caylee reward is? $250,000 Casey!
ICA to CA...wow, that's half my bond...

The rage and anger she felt for her parents, CA more...jealous that they gave more attention to Caylee...

If ICA takes the stand in her own defense, we might get to see that fist shaking and frushtration once again...and they jury will get to see that visit as well...

If ICA claims it were an accident, common sense will prevail. One simple call to 911 to help resusitate Caylee is all one had to do...not ride around with their deceased child until they find the spot to dump her in. When the jurors hear of how Caylee was discarded like trash, it can't be viewed an accident that snowballed out of hand...it will be seen for what it was...

Casey wanted her freedom more than she wanted to be a mother. All she had to do was give Caylee to her parents, if not her parents than to the state, she didn't have to take her life to accomplish her own goals in life...a life taken for selfish reasons, will not sit well with jurors, especially if they have children/grandchildren of their own...Casey might just wind up in prison for the rest of her sorry life...That would be much more worse than death. To sit behind bars in her nueva bella vita, would be pure gold...to now take away what she wanted most, freedom! JMHO

Justice for Caylee

 

[Aedrys]

And remember...we've had three years of getting information, digesting it, conversing about it...that's a long, long time to think and talk about this in pieces. Remember that too - we've gotten all of this case in pieces, never all at once.

Now just imagine, all the information we've received, every deposition (at least any needed portions that surely the SA will have right on hand for every witness that gets on the stand), every piece of evidence, every false scenario of what happened to Caylee plus the actual crime itself, every player, all of Casey's statements and attitudes, all of her parent's and brother's statements and attitudes, everything that has come out and has yet to come out...

Imagine all of that packaged neatly, tied with a bow, and presented by the SA to a jury, most of whom haven't heard of this case before - IN TWO MONTHS. All of the players, that insanely long list of witnesses, all on the stand and testifying, not in two or three years, but TWO MONTHS. Imagine the jury watching and digesting Casey and her defense at their table for TWO MONTHS. And imagine the defense's weak attempt to combat this neat package including the long witness list the SA has put together (cross exam and the defense itself) in the same TWO MONTHS. We got in a small, trickling spring rain. Now imagine that sprinkling rain turning into a hurricane or tsunami of information that is given to the jury in TWO MONTHS.

Casey is toast. There is no way any jury wouldn't convicted her of anything less than murder one, and the defense knows it, otherwise WHY would they spend so much more time on the mitigation phase, which will probably last way longer than the defense they put on?

 

[logicalgirl]

Back in the days after Caylee was found, I did ponder that it was an accidental killing. My reasoning? Because there was the heart shaped sticker on the duct tape. As if ICA tried to make it look like a kidnapping, but OTOH felt so bad about it that she put the heart there to make herself "feel better".

The heart has since bothered me, as I can't figure out the meaning or understanding behind it. That's my only reasoning to apply an accident/coverup.

However, I think it's too late for the defense to backtrack and go with this theory now. What is their theory anyway!

MOO

Mel

That is interesting reasoning mgardner, and I can see your point, but hasn't the defense been insisting the heart sticker was NOT there? Can they now switch "beliefs" and say it was there because now that concept works for them re: accidental or remorse or something?

 

[Melanie]

That is interesting reasoning mgardner, and I can see your point, but hasn't the defense been insisting the heart sticker was NOT there? Can they now switch "beliefs" and say it was there because now that concept works for them re: accidental or remorse or something?

Yuppers, but we saw it before the lab destroyed it (which is why it sticks out in my mind).

I suppose it's a moot point now, since the prosecution can't use it (or can they use pictures?).

In any case, I don't think the defense can use it either for an accidental/remorseful killing. It's kinda late in the game for that too!

Mel

 

[Jetaime]

I literally cried tears of joy when Judge Perry allowed EVERYTHING - ALL of Casey's statements in, because I KNEW how vitally important it was for the jurors to hear her own voice. I wanted the jurors to be able to make their decision on how it ALL really went down. IMO, that ruling was as important as anything ever will be in this case, except for the jury's verdict.

CBM. I agree 100%. Especially hearing her voice in this little exchange @ the Universal interrogation.

Casey: Caylee liked to go walk along the trail @ J Blanchard Park.

Appie Wells: We just finished walking that trail. That's where the jogger was killed I believe. It's a pretty park

Casey: My mom didnt want me going out there to run-- for that reason. She didnt even want me running on the outside or anywhere around Chickasaw...for the longest time because of that.

 

[jennyb]

And remember...we've had three years of getting information, digesting it, conversing about it...that's a long, long time to think and talk about this in pieces. Remember that too - we've gotten all of this case in pieces, never all at once.

Now just imagine, all the information we've received, every deposition (at least any needed portions that surely the SA will have right on hand for every witness that gets on the stand), every piece of evidence, every false scenario of what happened to Caylee plus the actual crime itself, every player, all of Casey's statements and attitudes, all of her parent's and brother's statements and attitudes, everything that has come out and has yet to come out...

Imagine all of that packaged neatly, tied with a bow, and presented by the SA to a jury, most of whom haven't heard of this case before - IN TWO MONTHS. All of the players, that insanely long list of witnesses, all on the stand and testifying, not in two or three years, but TWO MONTHS. Imagine the jury watching and digesting Casey and her defense at their table for TWO MONTHS. And imagine the defense's weak attempt to combat this neat package including the long witness list the SA has put together (cross exam and the defense itself) in the same TWO MONTHS. We got in a small, trickling spring rain. Now imagine that sprinkling rain turning into a hurricane or tsunami of information that is given to the jury in TWO MONTHS.

Casey is toast. There is no way any jury wouldn't convicted her of anything less than murder one, and the defense knows it, otherwise WHY would they spend so much more time on the mitigation phase, which will probably last way longer than the defense they put on?

ITA with all of it. After the jury hears "Gimme Tony's number!" the judge is going to have to instruct the bailiffs to pass out smelling salts, pick them up from the floor and call a recess so they can sit upright in their chairs.

I remember how I felt when I first listened to that. I nearly passed out myself because it felt like an assault and I still, to this day, can't believe what I heard. Three years later!

The jurors will have no reason to have compassion for her. No remorse, not one tiny shred of sorrow, worry or humanity from that woman in any of her statements or actions. As human beings we try to find the merest hint of goodness, you almost beg to hear something... something! and they will find none.

I think the defense wants to seat jurors who mirror someone like Tracy M who can giggle through an interview while acknowledging KC is pretty disgusting and then still send her money for snacks. They need really low intelligence "peers" who have zero common sense and are a bit off themselves. I pray the SA weeds them out, I think they will.

Oh and OT, if the A's do an interview with InSessions which is rumored, I think there will be no doubt they're the (quoting Rick) "stupidest parents on the planet", and the most narcissistic. Because I think we'll see two people who are only out for themselves. If they go on air it will be horriffic and no good can come of it. There will be no doubt about who these people are. I've never watched them do their media bits before because they turn my stomach -- but this one I will make sure to see.

If Casey carries anything with her throughout her life in prison it will be the small comfort that the world can see her family for what they are. Like I said, small comfort, but to someone who hates her parents the way she does I imagine she'll feel some kind of validation and that might make her feel she's not crazy.

*

 

[jennyb]

Yuppers, but we saw it before the lab destroyed it (which is why it sticks out in my mind).

I suppose it's a moot point now, since the prosecution can't use it (or can they use pictures?).

In any case, I don't think the defense can use it either for an accidental/remorseful killing. It's kinda late in the game for that too!

Mel

I hope it's one of those things that will be "let the jury decide". I can't remember if any pics can be shown or if anything about the sticker has been allowed in. But I think it's an important little "bit", especially since those same stickers were found in the house.

 

[jennyb]

Looking from the outside in you could logically say she could've given Caylee to her parents. But psychologically for Casey that was not an option. There was a battle of the wills, a battle to the death between those two, and Caylee died. No way did Casey feel she could turn Caylee over to Cindy. I think she said in a police interview "I could've just given her to my mother" but only because it sounded reasonable, before anyone understood the dynamic in that household.

 

[pip]

Looking from the outside in you could logically say she could've given Caylee to her parents. But psychologically for Casey that was not an option. There was a battle of the wills, a battle to the death between those two, and Caylee died. No way did Casey feel she could turn Caylee over to Cindy. I think she said in a police interview "I could've just given her to my mother" but only because it sounded reasonable, before anyone understood the dynamic in that household.

I agree. When I heard her say that, I thought what it really meant was just the opposite..she COULDN'T (wouldn't) just give her to her mother.

 

[SoCalSleuth]

I don't know about the State of Florida but in California there has to be evidence submitted at trial which would support a manslaughter conviction, otherwise the trial judge will NOT allow the jury to be instructed on that charge in a first degree murder case.

 

[Solace]

I agree. When I heard her say that, I thought what it really meant was just the opposite..she COULDN'T (wouldn't) just give her to her mother.

Hi,

The "killer" who does such an obvious slaying inevitably says "why would I have done this" or "I could have just done this ' it doesn't make any sense for me to have done that when I could have just...."

This is huge that the jury will hear these tapes. She lies at the end of the Universal tape and says she went to Valencia. If I were the State I would notice that to let them know that they are dealing with a pathological liar.

The tapes are huge in that the jury will hear KC testify as to what happened or what didn't happen and her unflappable voice.

This is a conviction waiting to happen. IMO

 

[jennyb]

I hope they can play the tapes in their entirety and we won't have constant sidebars about certain portions. They need to be in context as they tell such a story!

 

[logicalgirl]

Yuppers, but we saw it before the lab destroyed it (which is why it sticks out in my mind).

I suppose it's a moot point now, since the prosecution can't use it (or can they use pictures?).

In any case, I don't think the defense can use it either for an accidental/remorseful killing. It's kinda late in the game for that too!

Mel

Oh geez - that's too bad for the defense because they apparently didn't see it at all, even though we did. Oh well, too bad Jose - sometimes that's the way justice rolls....

 

[jennyb]

Oh geez - that's too bad for the defense because they apparently didn't see it at all, even though we did. Oh well, too bad Jose - sometimes that's the way justice rolls....

The irony is rich!!!

 

[logicalgirl]

Well we know there are three charges she could easily be convicted on for a capital felony murder.
The first one is of course the victim was a child under the age of 12.
The second one is the victim was vulnerable due to the defendant having custodial/familial authority over the victim.
The third is the murder was cold, calculated and pre-meditated.

It is only the last one I am feeling a bit queasy about. No, put down the clubs and let me explain. Of course I think it was a heinous, cruel and evil act. Who wouldn't.

However, cold is defined by the courts as an act "not prompted by emotional frenzy, panic or rage"
.
Calculated is the evidence of careful planning or pre-arranged design.

Premeditated is described as "heightened premonition" (?) or deliberate ruthlessness.

Soooo......how many of us in sleuthing this out have insisted ICA flew into a rage???

Time to "zip it" if the defense is reading here. :innocent: