The top ten reasons I believe the IDI theory

[eileenhawkeye]

Was it JonBenet: Anatomy of an Investigation?

 

[BBB167893]

Was it JonBenet: Anatomy of an Investigation?

That sure sounds familiar. Could be it.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Well, it's on YouTube.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cw1w3zZXeY"]JonBenet Investigation Part 1 - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJnTEbCdQTQ&feature=related"]JonBenet Investigation Part 2 - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag9DfFESgbY&feature=related"]JonBenet Investigation Part 3 - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QofH2gBtC6A&feature=related"]JonBenet Investigation Part 4 - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxDMJUDgPkw&feature=related"]JonBenet Investigation Part 5 - YouTube[/ame]

 

[FairM]

I can't find it anyone know where it is?

what a fitting comment , "in court the presumption of innocence prevails but in the court of public opinion it's guilt."

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

You mean BESIDES my eyes seeing it and my ears hearing it? It was one of those A&E specials about the case. Towards the end, it was. This was around 2000-2001, if memory serves. Maybe if we're REALLY lucky, someone out there reading this will know which one and if we can find it on YouTube, or some such.

Yeah, something besides your recollection, if you don't mind. Our memories are very [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7051340&postcount=320"]fallible[/ame], as you know.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Sounds like another RDI myth.

This may not be exactly what others are referring to, but here's what I found when I went searching for more information on this quote of Hunter's, to either dispel it as an RDI myth or prove it as a Ramsey case fact:


http://www.bardachreports.com/articles/v_19971000.html


"During a three-hour interview with me in June, Alex Hunter, an affable man of 61, acknowledged that much of the Ramseys' post murder behavior was unusual. "No question about it. They lawyered up early on," he said. "Normally it is true, such victims throw themselves at the police and district attorney, offering and begging for information. The fact that they do not cooperate is most compelling, but it is not really evidence." Hunter asked me if I knew that Patsy Ramsey was a college graduate and had talent as a painter. He passed on the information that "she ran the science fair" at her son's school, and that she had impressed lawyers with her outspokenness when she served on a recent jury. "She was fused with JonBenet," said Hunter. "It was more than mere love." As for John Ramsey, whom he referred to as an "ice man" he wondered aloud whether "someone as smart as Ramsey would write such a long note." Toward the end of our talk, he said, "These are not bad people," then added, "Of course, we know that good people can do bad things.""


(Bolded by me.)


IMO, but it seems to me that this quote has been validated as a Ramsey case fact and not an RDI myth.


"Good people can do bad things."


IMO - what is meant is - people who appear to be church-going, God-fearing, Christian parents who adore their kids may also be capable of hurting those same kids they love so much...whether intentionally or by accident.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

IMO, but it seems to me that this quote has been validated as a Ramsey case fact and not an RDI myth.

"Good people can do bad things."

That quote is a fact, but that's not the alleged quote I was questioning, which was:

When DA Hunter made that comment about not wanting to prosecute Patsy because she "was a good person who made a mistake"- did NO ONE realize he was admitting that he knew or thought Patsy was responsible?

I think the allegation originated due to the mangling of an actual quote or quotes, but not the one from the Bardach article. It may have come from this LKL interview:

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: You're telling me about in the "shake baby" cases, these are nice people who get angry. That can happen with somebody, right?

HUNTER: You know, I have had people over the years -- and every DA will tell you the same story. We just see, in these "shake baby" cases particularly, good people who lose it; they lose their temper. They shake their babies and they rattle their brains loose, and they kill them or they brain damage them.

KING: They don't garrote them.

HUNTER: They don't garrote them.

Then some RDIer may have put their spin on it, and someone else starts quoting the RDIer spin as fact.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

That quote is a fact, but that's not the alleged quote I was questioning, which was:

When DA Hunter made that comment about not wanting to prosecute Patsy because she "was a good person who made a mistake"- did NO ONE realize he was admitting that he knew or thought Patsy was responsible?

I agree with DeeDee - I think some people don't quite realize that Hunter was out right admitting that he knew or thought Patsy was responsible.

I think the allegation originated due to the mangling of an actual quote or quotes, but not the one from the Bardach article. It may have come from this LKL interview:

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: You're telling me about in the "shake baby" cases, these are nice people who get angry. That can happen with somebody, right?

HUNTER: You know, I have had people over the years -- and every DA will tell you the same story. We just see, in these "shake baby" cases particularly, good people who lose it; they lose their temper. They shake their babies and they rattle their brains loose, and they kill them or they brain damage them.

KING: They don't garrote them.

HUNTER: They don't garrote them.

Ah, thanks so much for the link. So now both of these quotes have been confirmed as factual statements, correctly attributed to DA Alex Hunter. Excellent. Good progress.

We shall have to ask DeeDee to confirm for us which statement Hunter made is the one she was referring to, if either are the one. Please and thank you, DeeDee, if and when you see this and get the chance.

I just don't see that much of a difference between the two quotes, Smelly Squirrel. The sentiment is the same in both of them - sometimes "good people can do bad things", and sometimes "good people...lose it; they lose their temper."

Can you please tell me what the difference is as you see it? Cause it sounds like he's saying the same thing (but in different phrasing) to me. Either way, whichever quote, Hunter is basically saying....good people can do bad things, good people can lose their temper (which could result in a bad thing happening, right?)

Then some RDIer may have put their spin on it, and someone else starts quoting the RDIer spin as fact.

And now, through our collective research, both of these quotes from Hunter listed above are known to be fact, not just some RDI spin. I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this allegation of "RDI spin", when the links have the quotes right there for everyone to see....what interpretation are you arriving at that leads you accuse anyone of "spin"?

Do you think Hunter was referring to an as-yet-still-unidentified-or-unnamed suspect, perhaps a pedophile intruder or a small foreign faction with either one of the two quotes that you and I have just sourced to him?

If so, how could Hunter possibly know if the kidnapper-turned-murderer was a good person or not?

How could he possibly know if the person who assaulted and killed JonBenet was someone who just lost their temper or not?


And does anyone else find it curious there are not one but TWO different quotes from Hunter saying basically the same thing? I knew of the one I quoted, but now seeing there is a second quote that relates the same general attitude in the same basic phrasing really adds weight to what I already surmised. If anything, seeing both of these quotes and knowing they were made at different times by the same DA tells me that he thought he knew exactly who was responsible, and that he did not believe it was an intruder but a Ramsey - IMO, Patsy.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

I agree with DeeDee - I think some people don't quite realize that Hunter was out right admitting that he knew or thought Patsy was responsible

Which quote does Hunter admit that? It's not in either of the quotes above.

I just don't see that much of a difference between the two quotes, Smelly Squirrel. The sentiment is the same in both of them - sometimes "good people can do bad things", and sometimes "good people...lose it; they lose their temper."

Can you please tell me what the difference is as you see it? Cause it sounds like he's saying the same thing (but in different phrasing) to me. Either way, whichever quote, Hunter is basically saying....good people can do bad things, good people can lose their temper (which could result in a bad thing happening, right?)

They're not that different, but the LKL is a TV interview and the other is a magazine article. I think it's more likely to come from something on TV.

And now, through our collective research, both of these quotes from Hunter listed above are known to be fact, not just some RDI spin.

You're spinning it right there. Again, I'm referring to DeeDee's representation, which is not the same as than those quotes. You're conflating the two with some RDI sleight of hand.

Do you think Hunter was referring to an as-yet-still-unidentified-or-unnamed suspect, perhaps a pedophile intruder or a small foreign faction with either one of the two quotes that you and I have just sourced to him?

He wasn't referring to anyone specifically.

If so, how could Hunter possibly know if the kidnapper-turned-murderer was a good person or not?

He never said the murderer was.

How could he possibly know if the person who assaulted and killed JonBenet was someone who just lost their temper or not?

He doesn't say he knows that. What are you talking about?

And does anyone else find it curious there are not one but TWO different quotes from Hunter saying basically the same thing?

I don't. He's being consistent.

knew of the one I quoted, but now seeing there is a second quote that relates the same general attitude in the same basic phrasing really adds weight to what I already surmised. If anything, seeing both of these quotes and knowing they were made at different times by the same DA tells me that he thought he knew exactly who was responsible, and that he did not believe it was an intruder but a Ramsey - IMO, Patsy.

Where does he say he knows who's responsible? Which words exactly say that?

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Which quote does Hunter admit that? It's not in either of the quotes above.

Please note my use of the words "I think" - I am stating my opinion, which is that I agree with DeeDee and that I think that Hunter is admitting he thinks he knows who is responsible with the quotes we've linked to.

They're not that different, but the LKL is a TV interview and the other is a magazine article. I think it's more likely to come from something on TV.

I'm sorry, I still don't quite think I understand - what is more likely to come from something on tv? A quote from Hunter? Are you saying that you believe something from a tv show is more credible than something written in a magazine article?

Is that your opinion..?...or do you have a link to back that up...? Would that be every tv show versus every magazine article, or just things quoting Hunter, or just things involving the Ramsey case...?....or what??? I am just not exactly following your thinking here, but I'd like to better understand what you mean, if you could please help me.

You're spinning it right there. Again, I'm referring to DeeDee's representation, which is not the same as than those quotes. You're conflating the two with some RDI sleight of hand.

Well, without DeeDee having supplied us with a reply to clear up her meaning or representation as of yet, I am not sure where you are so certain you are right and I am spinning anything. I will wait and give DeeDee her say before I make a judgment on her post.

I've provided you with a link, and if you can discredit the article given at the link, or the information contained within, please do so. Otherwise, I don't see why my source is not as valid as yours. ..? Because it was in a magazine article and not on tv? Are you serious?

Both of the quotes that you and I have linked in are fact as seen at links - where is the spin, where is the sleight of hand?

I do not appreciate being accused of spin. I back up what I say with links when asked, and even when not asked. Anyone can read what I've sourced and make up for their own minds whether any attempt at spin has been made, but it looks kinda like you're casting vague allegations at other posters because you don't like what they have to say (whether opinion or fact) and that is just plain not very nice. Spin, indeed. You need to either prove that or stop saying it. IMO.

He wasn't referring to anyone specifically.

Is that your opinion? It appears so, but I am left to guess. If not, please provide a link.

It happens to be my opinion that he was making a specific reference.

Why else would he even venture a guess that "good people can do bad things" or that "good people can lose it; they lose their temper" if he wasn't making any specific reference to anyone or anything? How does a quote like that even relate to the case at all if he isn't referring to anyone or anything specific?

Again, how would he even know...?....unless he thinks he has some idea of who the person responsible was? Otherwise, how could he possibly even try to guess that whoever did this is a good person, or that this so-called good person lost their temper? That is what he says, is it not?

WHY would he say that, seemingly, as you believe, for no real reason, at no one thing or person in particular? That doesn't even make sense, IMO. There is no reason for him to say it not once but TWICE, if he isn't making any specific reference to anything at all...is there? What conclusion are you drawing that I am completely missing?

He never said the murderer was.

Your opinion? I do wish you'd please add an IMO or a JMO or something to indicate your post is expressing opinion when it is...otherwise you might end up accused of attempting "spin."

It's my opinion that Hunter was trying to say that the murderer may have been a "good person" who did a "bad thing" or that the murderer is a "good person" who "lost their temper". I am also of the opinion that Hunter was referring to someone specific when he said that, and that that person was not a pedo intruder or an SFF but a Ramsey.

He doesn't say he knows that. What are you talking about?

Is that another opinion of yours? He doesn't say he doesn't know it, either.

Please...you know that I'm talking about - the two quotes sourced back to DA Hunter, and who he was referring to in the those quotes.

I don't. He's being consistent.

Yes, he is being consistent. I agree with you there. He's consistent in that he's quoted in two different sources as saying basically the same thing - that he thinks that "good people can do bad things" and that "good people can lose it; lose their temper."

Why do you think he said that, in not one, but two different interviews?

Why do you think he said the same thing twice in different phrasing if he wasn't referring to anything or anyone specific when he said it in at least two different interviews?

Just to say it? I mean, really...I'm not trying to be rude. I'd like to be able to follow your logic, but I don't think I'm quite getting what you mean.

Where does he say he knows who's responsible? Which words exactly say that?

Please read posts more closely before trying to "spin" another's words into something they didn't say and, for all you know, something they were not trying to say.

I said in my post that this (his possibly knowing who was responsible) was what I had already surmised, meaning it was my opinion - and by that I mean that my opinion is based on the two quotes you and I have found and linked, and my interpretation of what he meant in his quotes based on context in conversation when he said them. Then I said, "IMO - Patsy" in reference to who I think Hunter meant in his quotes.

To be crystal clear - those two statements made by me were intended to reflect my personal opinion, based on my personal interpretation of the two quotes from Hunter. I believe I clearly stated them as such, but if you were confused, I am more than happy to clear it up for you.

This has been my opinion unless linked.

 

[BBB167893]

Well, it's on YouTube.

JonBenet Investigation Part 1 - YouTube

JonBenet Investigation Part 2 - YouTube

JonBenet Investigation Part 3 - YouTube

JonBenet Investigation Part 4 - YouTube

JonBenet Investigation Part 5 - YouTube

Thanks, eileen. I didn't watch the whole thing just now, so this COULD be it.

When I first watched this broadcast (about two years after it aired originally), there were a few things I was struck by ahead of what we're talking about. First was the statement by Ron Walker about the ways parents have killed their children. It's a direct attack on the propaganda that John Douglas, Lou Smit and other members of Team Ramsey (which includes members of the DA's office, I'm sorry to say) have slathered on us. The second one is a subject I've often touched on around here, and that's Kurtis's statement about how the JB case can be seen as a symbol of the direction our legal system is taking and has taken since the days of the Warren Court, where defense attorneys basically run the show and criminals have more rights than the victims.

It wasn't until later that I was made aware of Hunter's comment about good people who make a mistake.

 

[BBB167893]

Yeah, something besides your recollection, if you don't mind. Our memories are very fallible, as you know.

Especially when you've been doing this for ten years!

Then again, at least I've HAD ten years.

 

[BBB167893]

This may not be exactly what others are referring to, but here's what I found when I went searching for more information on this quote of Hunter's, to either dispel it as an RDI myth or prove it as a Ramsey case fact:


http://www.bardachreports.com/articles/v_19971000.html


"During a three-hour interview with me in June, Alex Hunter, an affable man of 61, acknowledged that much of the Ramseys' post murder behavior was unusual. "No question about it. They lawyered up early on," he said. "Normally it is true, such victims throw themselves at the police and district attorney, offering and begging for information. The fact that they do not cooperate is most compelling, but it is not really evidence." Hunter asked me if I knew that Patsy Ramsey was a college graduate and had talent as a painter. He passed on the information that "she ran the science fair" at her son's school, and that she had impressed lawyers with her outspokenness when she served on a recent jury. "She was fused with JonBenet," said Hunter. "It was more than mere love." As for John Ramsey, whom he referred to as an "ice man" he wondered aloud whether "someone as smart as Ramsey would write such a long note." Toward the end of our talk, he said, "These are not bad people," then added, "Of course, we know that good people can do bad things.""


(Bolded by me.)

That sounds about right!

 

[BBB167893]

I agree with DeeDee - I think some people don't quite realize that Hunter was out right admitting that he knew or thought Patsy was responsible.

Sure sounds like it.

I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this allegation of "RDI spin", when the links have the quotes right there for everyone to see....what interpretation are you arriving at that leads you accuse anyone of "spin"?

It's the standard, playbook IDI response, NP. I ought to know!

 

[DeeDee249]

Reporting in here----I don't usually get on here till evening.

I was referring to Hunter's comment about Patsy and not the "shaky-baby" comments. Is that what you meant?

Like you, I think AH felt the Rs were responsible for the death and coverup, I think he felt it was a staged coverup of an unintended death (which is different than an accidental death) and that the Rs were "good people who did a bad thing".
Prosecuting them for the coverup would have exposed their involvement in the death itself (or the involvement of someone who was not prosecutable) and SH didn't want to go there.
I don't remember where I read this, but I recall reading that AH was about to offer a plea bargain to Patsy which would have not involved jail time and would have been for lesser homicide-type charges, not murder. Anyone else remember this?

 

[FairM]

Reporting in here----I don't usually get on here till evening.

I was referring to Hunter's comment about Patsy and not the "shaky-baby" comments. Is that what you meant?

Like you, I think AH felt the Rs were responsible for the death and coverup, I think he felt it was a staged coverup of an unintended death (which is different than an accidental death) and that the Rs were "good people who did a bad thing".
Prosecuting them for the coverup would have exposed their involvement in the death itself (or the involvement of someone who was not prosecutable) and SH didn't want to go there.
I don't remember where I read this, but I recall reading that AH was about to offer a plea bargain to Patsy which would have not involved jail time and would have been for lesser homicide-type charges, not murder. Anyone else remember this?

I can certainly see that particular DA offering a plea bargain, it's what came naturally in Boulder!:crazy:

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Reporting in here----I don't usually get on here till evening.

I was referring to Hunter's comment about Patsy and not the "shaky-baby" comments. Is that what you meant?

Thank you!

Like you, I think AH felt the Rs were responsible for the death and coverup, I think he felt it was a staged coverup of an unintended death (which is different than an accidental death) and that the Rs were "good people who did a bad thing".
Prosecuting them for the coverup would have exposed their involvement in the death itself (or the involvement of someone who was not prosecutable) and SH didn't want to go there.
I don't remember where I read this, but I recall reading that AH was about to offer a plea bargain to Patsy which would have not involved jail time and would have been for lesser homicide-type charges, not murder. Anyone else remember this?

I spent a little time searching around, and found that there is an article about a plea bargain quoted and discussed over at Topix (first post):


http://www.topix.com/forum/news/jonbenet-ramsey/T6C9UP22R3LIL3UOT


No surprise for me that the DA and the R's attys deny it.

And related to that is this - mention of a plea bargain in the civil action case where the R's attys went after tabloid newspaper Star for libel in their May 25th and June 1st, 1999 issues. Among other things, Star said there was a plea bargain being worked on, and the Ramsey attys maintain denial of it.


http://crimeshots.com/Burke.html



41.
The May 25 story was libelous in its entirety and by virtue of the following false and defamatory statements, among others, published therein: John and Patsy Ramsey are in secret plea-bargain negotiations with authorities in the JonBenet murder case.
But their son - Burke, 12 - is now being looked at as the prime suspect.
STAR has learned that's the real story behind the scenes of the grand jury drama currently being played out in Boulder, Colo. -amid day predictions that one or both parents were about to be indicted.
The shocking suspicions about Burke - age 9 when JonBenet was killed on Christmas night 1996 - have prompted the Boulder district attorney to try to cut a deal with the Ramsey lawyers in hopes of finally putting the nightmarish case to rest.

Legal experts told STAR that even if Burke were guilty, he could not be charged with a crime because of his age.
But the negotiations were said to involve what kind of treatment or counseling the boy might receive and also possible charges against either Patsy or John for helping cover up the crime.
While fan-lily friends insist the two children were the closest of playmates, investigators have long thought Burke had every reason to be resentful of all the attention heaped on this pretty younger sister as she was being groomed by her mother and grandmother to win the Miss America crown that eluded Patsy.
Authorities now believe the "flashpoint" for the Christmas night horror was when 6-year-old JonBenet wet her bed that night and - as she often did - went down the hall to Burke's room and crawled in the bed with her brother,
They believe that Burke let loose his pent-up rage at his sister that night and lashed out at her physically, say sources.
D.A. Hunter wants to cut a deal, say the sources, in to avoid a long and costly trial,
- 10 -

But he also wants Patsy punished in some way for the role authorities believe she played in faking a ransom note and trying to cover up the murder, And he wants to force some kind of counseling or treatment for Burke.




53.
The June 1 story was libelous in its entirety and by virtue of the following false and defamatory statements, among others, published therein:
Burke Ramsey led a tormented life - never able to compete with his child beauty queen sister JonBenet, experts say,
Child-care specialists, law-enforcement authorities and family friends have painted a harrowing picture of the 12-yearold in the wake of STAR's bombshell revelation that he is being looked at as a prime suspect in the murder of JonBenet.
STAR revealed last week that Boulder, Colo. District Attorney Alex Hunter has begun secret plea-bargain negotiations with the Ramseys after narrowing the focus of the investigation to Burke and a cover-up, complete with fake ransom note, which police think was masterminded by mother Patsy.
Experts agree that this could have been a logical scenario for the murder of 6-year-old JonBenet on Christmas Night 1996.
-13

"And I think when John Ramsey said he wanted mercy for this daughter's killer, he knew what he was saying.
"It could have been an accident.
"They were protecting their last child."
Burke cannot be tried for his sister's murder because he was under 10 years of age at the time of her death.




56.
No plea bargain negotiations took place between officials in the Boulder County District Attorney's office and attorneys for John Ramsey, Patsy Ramsey or Plaintiff Burke Ramsey based on the belief of law enforcement officials that Plaintiff Burke Ramsey killed his sister.
57.
The Boulder County District Attorney never wanted to force Plaintiff Burke Ramsey to undergo counseling or treatment because he killed his sister but could not be charged with a crime due to his age.
58.
The Boulder County District Attorney was never closing in on Plaintiff Burke Ramsey as the person responsible for the murder of his sister, JonBenet Ramsey.

 

[BBB167893]

I can certainly see that particular DA offering a plea bargain, it's what came naturally in Boulder!:crazy:

You're telling it, FairM! However, in this case, it may have been inevitable.